A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[Hands On]

I am busy looking and walking through Revelation,considering all the different views of various expositors.My intention is to discover how much in Revelation are we actually experiencing at this moment.A verse which got my red lights flashing is "Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet."(N.I.V. Rev.16:13).

As already pointed out on this thread each to his own while walking through this "forest".There is no doubt that there are many "theologians" who would qualify as symbolical "frogs"if we consider the slimy,slippery,creepy way they twist the truth of God's Word just as the Gnostics   did in the days of the primitive church.

In the days of Exodus, Ramses was bugged with literal frogs .Today we sit with symbolical "frogs" from local church to sinode level, it would seem.Please forgive me if I am merely stating the obvious.

[not an echo]

On 6/23/2020 at 3:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/22/2020 at 10:30 PM, not an echo said:

And some who are genuinely saved are not really ready.  What do I mean?  I submit that any of God's children that are not disciples of His are not really ready.  Again, what do I mean??  I think of myself when, even as a child of God, I was caught up in the things of the world.  If Christ had come at that time in my life for the rapture of the Church, I surely believe that I would have found myself ashamed in His presence.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you here, but to me what this sounds like is a works based salvation mentality mixing its way into your explanation.  I suspect that this does not reflect what you believe, but does warrant examination.  Typically when something like this occurs, what it reveals is a flaw in the conclusion.

In regards to being caught up in the world for a time, I would imagine that is something every believer has gone through at some point in time.  I spent my own season wandering in the wilderness, but I think the difference here is that when this occurs, a true child of God is not working against Him.  We may not be following Him as we should, but we are not in opposition to the faith, we're simply living in denial and justifying our misdeeds.

Hello wingnut- and all,

In the days after I began to endeavor to give God the same chance that I had given the world, I made some embarrassing slips.  I was ashamed of myself and before God.  There were also some occasions (before the convictions were developed in my life that I now have) when I indulged in some things that I felt were allowable, which I later came to realize were not.  The result was that God sometimes chastened me severely (Heb. 12:5-13).  In retrospect (at that time), I began to understand that God was with me, watching over me, all those years that I had not given Him much regard---how much more now that I was trying the best I knew how.  He had never forsook me, nor cast me out.  Further, I firmly believe that He would never have done that.

Concisely, I believe that Satan has a number one goal for everyone that is born into this world---that is that they die LOST.  When one is born-again, I believe Satan is forever foiled on his Plan A.  But, he then begins his Plan B---that is that the child of God die A LOSER.  Someone has rightly said (as I see things) that it is entirely possible to have a saved soul and a lost life.  I believe that many, perhaps most, of God's children have squandered away their lives.  At that time when I was squandering away my life, was I really  ready for Christ's return?  Was I really ready to face my Creator and Savior with my life of neglect?  Could I have held my head up in proud confidence over the son I had been, or would I have to hang my head with tears streaming?  I think the latter.  I could go on and on.

Our consolation is that however disobedient or neglectful we have been in regard to our Creator, He has predestined us to be "conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom. 8:29).  To me, this means that whatever we may lack being so conformed this side of our physical death, He is going to finish us out, and this will involve a little more than our receiving our glorified bodies.  As things shape up to me, from my understanding of Scripture, Christ's Millennial Kingdom will provide the perfect venue for this finishing out to take place---and a lot more.

I have felt that it might be helpful for some if I copy and paste once again some of what I believe concerning Christ's Millennial Kingdom...

I BELIEVE that when Christ comes again, He will rule and reign upon this earth as the King of kings and Lord of lords---for a literal thousand years (Rev. 20:1-6).  During this time, God will fulfill His covenant promises to the Israelite nation, and Christians will experience the rewards of their faithfulness to Christ.  Realize, the estate of God's children in Heaven is a gift of God, and will be equal for all, for all of eternity, as reflected in Revelation chapters 21-22.  But, the estate of God's children during Christ's Millennial Reign will vary greatly, for it is a reward, based upon what we have done for God's Kingdom purposes in this life, as reflected in Jesus' parables of the talents (Matt. 25:14-23ff), and the pounds (Lk. 19:11-19ff), and Paul's words concerning rewards (I Cor. 3:12-15).  In my concept of what Scripture teaches, all of God's children during Christ's Reign will have it far better than anyone in this present experience of life---but there is a concern.  Consider:  We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls.  And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies.  This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly.  But, we will still have our memories.  We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5).  This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the lost at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20).  So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient.  This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about.

Concerning what I have in bold in my next to the last sentence in the above paragraph, my concept of what this may be like is similar to our present memories, as mature Christians.  I don't always go around saddened over my past failures.  I believe God desires us to move past our past.  But sometimes, I still think about it.  And sometimes it does me good to think about it, because I can see how far the good Lord has brought me from where I used to be.  Paul remembered quite well what he used to be, as he freely talked about it.  But, he also moved past it and encouraged us likewise (Phil. 3:13-17).  But again, he still did remember.  This will change, however, when God wipes away "all" our tears (Rev. 21:4-5), after which our experience throughout eternity will be without any of these memories (Isa. 65:17).

I sincerely hope this is helpful.  What to me has become quite clear, some see quite differently, it seems.  I kinda understand.  I'm just sharing how I see things.  One fine day we will all see more clearly...

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 6/23/2020 at 3:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/22/2020 at 10:30 PM, not an echo said:

I think of John's admonition to believers, "And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.  Ashamed?  A child of God, but ashamed?  Entering the Portals of Glory, but ashamed?  What is John getting at, and again, what do I mean???

 

I John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

 

John clarifies his teaching quite well I think.  He states in closing, that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of Him, or in other words, is clothed with the Holy Spirit.  So the requirement remains consistent throughout scripture, the Holy Spirit is the guarantee.  The concept of being ashamed is a recurring theme associated with "nakedness" and/or not being clothed.  Scripture further clarifies that the clothing required is the Holy Spirit, also demonstrated in greater detail regarding the whole armor of God, which is spiritual armor.

Since the resurrection of Jesus Christ, there are only two types of children that God sees, children of light and children of the dark.  Saved and unsaved.  Believers and non-believers.  Whatever terminology one prefers to apply, the end result is the same.  One group is clothed, and the other is not.  One will be ashamed, and the other will not.

Concerning the above portion of my post, I hope you now understand more fully where I am coming from, though you may disagree.  I'm wondering concerning the last sentence of your reply---"One will be ashamed, and the other will not."---if you are seeing the "ashamed" person of John's admonition as representing a lost person?

[not an echo]

On 6/23/2020 at 3:39 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/22/2020 at 10:30 PM, not an echo said:

Consider:  We who have been born-again have been made "new creatures" inwardly, in our souls.  And, during Christ's Reign, we will be in our new, glorified bodies.  This means that during Christ's Reign, we will be in a glorified state, both inwardly and outwardly.  But, we will still have our memories.  We will have our memories until that time that God "wipes away" all tears from our eyes and anything in our minds that would cause us sorrow in our eternity (Rev. 21:4-5).  This, however, will not happen until after Christ's Reign and the judgment of the lost at the Last Judgment (Rev. 20).  So, while our estate during Christ's Reign will be as royalty (Rev. 20:6), a thousand years is a long time for one to wish he or she had been more faithful or obedient.  This is something to seriously think about that most of God's children have thought nothing about.

 

I would tend to disagree with your conclusions regarding this.  Considering the body is glorified, and the brain is part of the body, I would suggest that the thought process would reflect that glorification.  While I agree the enemy hasn't been destroyed yet, he is bound and has no influence until he is set free at the end of the thousand years.  If you remove the accuser of the brethren from the equation I don't see glorified beings suffering from guilt over sins that have been washed clean.  In our glorified state, we have been perfected, correct?

As far as rewards go, I have no expectations.  I'll be content if my service is cleaning stables, being in His presence is reward enough for me.  Considering we are all undeserving to begin with, you are correct, I spend no time considering the reward phase.

Concerning your first paragraph, I believe we may be in total agreement here.  I believe exactly as you do concerning Satan at that time.  And I certainly don't believe that we will be "suffering from guilt over sins that have been washed clean."  I never suffer or experience guilt over my past sins now, but I do sometimes remember.  And I do sometimes wonder what it might have been for me now, if I had started walking the walk of discipleship as a teen.  I have such admiration for others in the family of God that were more obedient earlier on.  So, connected with our experience during Christ's Millennial Reign and our "reward" or "loss" (I Cor. 3:13-15) as it connects with that time, I can see ourselves sometimes remembering.  And wingnut, I see this as being a good thing---not that we failed or neglected, but that we can remember---something that God will use for our ultimate good and the process of more fully conforming us to the image of Christ.  But again, a 1000 years is a long time to be able to remember (even if from time to time) and to wish (even if from time to time) that we had been a more obedient child.  If I only have a memory occasion once every 10 years, I can see myself wishing that I had done differently.  If I only have a memory occasion once every 100 years, I can see myself once again wishing I had done differently.  And it will be alright.  I will be the better for it.  God will see to that.  Seeing all this as I do, it has added an element to my thinking that causes me to more fully endeavor to maintain a close walk with God today, so that tomorrow I will not wish I had done differently yesterday...

Concerning your second paragraph, I can certainly appreciate your humble spirit.  Hey, who knows, maybe we'll be cleaning stables beside each other.  And after we get done, we can mount our white horses and race each other out to Saturn and sit on its rings and behold the Father's universe from a little different perspective.  Or, we can just do whatever we want to do, perhaps explore the Andromeda Nebula.  Now that would be cool.  I think of the song, "This Is My Father's World."

Edited August 30, 2020 by not an echo

[wingnut-]

45 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the above portion of my post, I hope you now understand more fully where I am coming from, though you may disagree.  I'm wondering concerning the last sentence of your reply---"One will be ashamed, and the other will not."---if you are seeing the "ashamed" person of John's admonition as representing a lost person?

 

Yes, those who are ashamed are naked, meaning no Holy Spirit, so they are unsaved if that is what you mean by lost.  Because of our differences regarding the timing of the gathering, we end up with very different outlooks on the millennial kingdom.  Another major hurdle is our difference of opinion regarding chronology in Revelation.  I can lay out my understanding for you, but the chronology is going to be confusing from your current perspective.

[wingnut-]

23 minutes ago, not an echo said:

I never suffer or experience guilt over my past sins now, but I do sometimes remember.

 

I understand, and just to clarify, I wasn't insinuating that you did.  My responses will reflect my own personal thoughts, regarding my own personal perspective, so just know that nothing I say is with you in mind as far as an example, I am just sharing my thoughts.  What I had in mind here, are some of the things that occasionally come back to me, and what I have learned over the years is that these reminders come from the enemy in an attempt to make me suffer.  This is what I had in mind with my response.

 

20 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your second paragraph, I can certainly appreciate your humble spirit.  Hey, who knows, maybe we'll be cleaning stables beside each other.

 

Sounds like a plan, I look forward to the day.

[not an echo]

On 6/26/2020 at 10:56 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

Concerning your last sentence, I believe the only way that I could see this is if I took the event of the 6th Seal and Matthew 24:29-31 to be of the Second Coming, and I just can't see this.  Is this how you are seeing things?

 

Yes, that is how I see it as they describe the exact same signs, including the lesson of the fig tree.

Hello wingnut- (and all),

Well, it's been a long week for me.  The pandemic has resulted in my place of employment being cut to a skeleton crew and me being scheduled for 12 hour days.  I'm the most senior person, having now been there over 42 years, and things can often get quite demanding.  I'm also serving as a pastor for a little flock that means the world to me, not to mention being a family man.  I have sometimes said that I am spread so thin that one can about see through me!  Annnyway, I am glad to be able to share some again, and hopefully even get caught up on some things here at home. 

My first thought concerning your above reply is that if John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Matthew 24:29-31 (which I believe we are both see as describing the same event) is of the Second Coming, how does the lesson of the fig tree connect?  As I have said elsewhere, when someone is present, their return is not pending.  So, if this return of Christ is at the time of the Battle of Armageddon, how are we to understand the lesson of the fig tree/this generation?  In other words, what Jesus says in Matthew 24:33 would then make more sense if it read something like, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is HERE (instead of NEAR)..."  Further, Jesus' words concerning "This generation shall not pass" (Matt. 24:34) would then make more sense if it read something like this DAY shall not pass, or even this HOUR shall not pass, or better yet, this MOMENT shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Of course, if by "all these things" one takes this to mean everything that Jesus said from Matthew 24:4-31, I can kinda understand, but "all these things" certainly seems (to me, anyway) to include verses 29-31, whether exclusive of what He said prior, or inclusive.

In my thread entitled Rightly Dividing Jesus' Olivet Discourse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/252817-rightly-dividing-jesus-olivet-discourse/), I outline how I see Jesus' discourse as being divided into three sections and this division being consistent with all three accounts.  Concerning Matthew's account alone, I see the first section (24:4-14) as really pertaining to the era of the Church (especially), with huge relevance to every generation of the Church since the first century.  I see the second section (24:15-28) as really pertaining to the Israelites (especially) and the time of Daniel's 70th Week, which will close with Christ's Second Coming and the Battle of Armageddon (vss. 26-28).  And finally, I see the third section (24:29-51) as pertaining to very day of the event of Christ's Sign Return for both the rapture of the Church and as sign to the Israelite nation, seven years (and some months) before His Second Coming.  Understood this way, it is easy (for me) to see Christ's return as being in two parts, or phases, and the relevance of the lesson of the fig tree, as connecting with the first part or phase.  This also fits The Revelation's chronology of His Sign Return at the opening of the 6th Seal and His later Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 6/26/2020 at 10:56 AM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 12:23 AM, not an echo said:

As I see things, it is The Revelation that is the most accurate chronology of last day's prophecy that we have in Scripture. 

 

The issue of chronology in Revelation is what separates most theories on the timing surrounding end times events.  There are numerous things that to me, make it clear that it is not chronological.  One of the clearest examples would be the 7th trumpet and what the results of this trumpet are, along with the three woes and their location in Revelation.

I'm not really sure how you interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet "and what the results of this trumpet are".  I know that it is common that this trumpet is seen as being "the Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52), "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16), and the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31)---and I can kinda understand this.  But, there are other things that are written that point to something different and cause me to come to another conclusion.

For example, we see no evidence in The Revelation of a trumpet being sounded in John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) or Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:11-21), but, we do have evidence of the "great sound of a trumpet" (Matt. 24:31) connecting hard with the 6th Seal.  This is as easy to see as comparing the 6th Seal account with the three parallel accounts of Christ's Sign Return (Matt. 24:29-31, Mk. 13:24-27, and Lk. 21:25-27).  When this is coupled with the accepted fact that the rapture will happen "in the twinkling of an eye" at the sounding of this trumpet (I Cor. 15:51-52) and the various evidences that we have of the Church being caught up (I Thess. 4:17) or gathered by the angels at this time (Matt. 24:31, II Thess. 2:1), it is easy to see that there are many points of convergence that cannot just be dismissed.  To me, when we do the math, the sum is that the Trump of God for the rapture of the Church is sounded with the opening of the 6th Seal.  In consideration of this and other evidences, more and more I see the "Trump of God" as being a very special and unique trumpet, or one of a kind instead of one in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is.

So, what do I do with the 7th Trumpet?  Well, to me, there are some things that I can't do with it.  For one, I can't (or don't know how to) make it the trumpet that is sounded with the opening of the 6th Seal, for this would involve me having to hopelessly disrupt the very apparent and strict chronological order of the first 10 chapters of The Revelation.  Equally as major would be the thing of having the 6th Seal event as also being Christ's Second Advent (as I understand you to see it), with the 7th Seal not even having been opened as yet.  I don't see myself as having this liberty with Scripture.  And there is much more.

On the other hand, I do see much, that for me, indicates that the 7th Trumpet heralds a period of time, something much longer than the time frame of a "twinkling of an eye."  When you consider the brief overview of what happens after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, you can see this expounded on for the next nine chapters.  Further, there is a progression of events and explanatory information that is such, that I see this section of The Revelation as having a logical chronological order also---of an overlapping nature.  Briefly, the main subjects of these chapters can be expressed as follows:

THE SEVENTH TRUMPET PERIOD

(REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

(REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

(REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED

(REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED

(REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED

(REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE (Satan's Religious Kingdom) DISCLOSED

(REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT (Satan's Political Kingdom) DISCLOSED

(REV. 19)---THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST DISCLOSED

(REV. 20)---MILLENNIAL REIGN OF CHRIST AND LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED.

I go into more detail concerning this (with very simple illustrations) in my thread entitled, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).

Question wingnut-:  If the 7th Trumpet is the rapture trumpet, and the rapture happens "in the twinkling of an eye" at this trumpet, what is your understanding of everything that happens thereafter?

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 6/27/2020 at 1:36 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 1:17 PM, not an echo said:

One conflict I see relates to Jesus' words as recorded in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse.  In Luke 21, it reads:

 36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, AND TO STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

 

Hello brother,

I'm glad you started with the Luke passage, because really this gets us right to the heart of the matter.  What this really boils down to is, what we perceive the "escape" is about.  So let's go over the information that defines "all these things" which we are escaping.  The first thing we have to address though, is how we accept scripture individually, because this ultimately colors how we view it.  Some are in the habit of picking and choosing what scripture applies to them and what doesn't, I am not one of those people.  I believe every word applies to all of us, so in regards to Luke, from the individuals present when Jesus spoke these words up until the present and going forward are the intended audience. 

 

Luke 21:5 And while some were speaking of the temple, how it was adorned with noble stones and offerings, he said, 6 “As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.”

 

The temple was destroyed as Jesus foretold them it would be.  Now we know from Matthew's account that He was speaking with His disciples privately.  At the time of the temple's destruction, some of these people were already dead from persecution, but some were still alive.  Did they escape it?  Which ones escaped it?  And if so, how?

 

Luke 21: 8 And he said, “See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he!’ and, ‘The time is at hand!’ Do not go after them.

 

Did His audience escape the false messiah's?  How about us, have we?  In my 14 years here at worthy, there have been literally hundreds of individuals that came to this site claiming to be Jesus.  That's just this site, there are hundreds more that never came to this site but have made national news as cult leaders claiming to be the messiah.  So, have we escaped this thing?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once.”

 

Did they escape wars and tumults?  Have we?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Did they escape any of these things?  Have we?  If so, how?

 

Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict.

 

This specific section and what follows are the main issue here, and to avoid this post getting too lengthy I am going to sum up my point here and not continue going through the entire chapter and all that follows.  We can see plainly in this section, that the promised "escape" has nothing to do with physical relocation, as these individuals who were present while He spoke were told specifically that they will be taken captive and delivered up to their enemies.

 

Luke 21:16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake.

 

Right here, they are told that some of them will be put to death.  Yet, look what the very next sentence says.

 

Luke 21:18 But not a hair of your head will perish.

 

Executed, but not a hair of their head will perish?

 

Luke 21:19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

So what we have is a promised "escape", in which some will be executed, without a hair on their head perishing, and by enduring they gain their lives...... in death.  Everyone should take their time and carefully consider what this means.

Concerning what seems to be the main thrust of your reply, if two Christians are facing martyrdom and one of them is burned at the stake, but a friend of the ruler convinces him to free the other Christian, which Christian escaped martyrdom?  Of course, when they die, both Christians will go to Heaven.  Not a hair (spiritually) of either will perish, and at their resurrection, every hair will be accounted for and glorified!  Yes!But, did both escape?  Well, kinda in a sense.  Did both escape martyrdom???  As I see it wingnut-, considering what the two Christians faced, I don't believe spiritualizing the experience of the martyred Christian really satisfies what the word "escape" denotes or connotes.  Do you see what I mean?

Got to go for a while.  Hope to be back later...

[not an echo]

On 6/27/2020 at 3:52 PM, wingnut- said:

On 6/26/2020 at 4:18 PM, not an echo said:

Just to kinda keep my bearings, this part of our discussion still stems from our discussion concerning whether Revelation 16:15 should be seen as a chronological indicator.  It is evident that this 16th chapter revolves around John's account of the vials of God's wrath being poured out, and with verse 15, six of these vials have been poured out.  I'm not even close to being able to wrap my head around how that six vials of God's wrath can be poured out (not to mention everything else that has occurred up to this point in The Revelation) and things being "life as usual."  I feel that I must be missing some perspective that you have, or something.

 

What you are experiencing is a common issue when two people with very different positions discuss these matters.  To understand what you are missing you would have to understand my overall beliefs on the subject, at this point you only have my timing on the gathering itself, and this conflicts with other areas of your position, but it doesn't conflict with mine.  Whatever issues you believe are contrary to this possibility, I can explain with scripture, the question is whether you can look at it with a clean slate.

Hey again wingnut-,

Thought I would share some further thoughts before turning in for the night.

I surely understand what you are saying here.  It can all get pretty complex trying to "download" another person's understanding of things, even beyond prophecy!  I know that everyone has his or her reasons for believing this way or that, and when it comes to prophecy, it all gets pretty deep and involved.  Because I know so well what a journey it has been for me to come to the understanding that I have, it is in my heart to always remain respectful of how others see things.  Concerning looking at things "with a clean slate",  whether we are truly able to do this, I believe we should try, for we never know how God may help our understanding through another.

On 6/27/2020 at 3:52 PM, wingnut- said:

One of the main points of concern here are related to the sequence of events, and what our individual understanding of those events represent.  There are two main aspects to these things, one is physical, and the other is spiritual.  How we decide to interpret each event and which aspect it represents largely determines the direction our beliefs will go.  For example, take the mark of the beast, is it physical or spiritual?  If I believe it is physical, and you believe it is spiritual, then we come to two very different conclusions in regards to everything related to this mark.  These decisions ultimately lead to more theories and/or beliefs than I can even imagine.  As I explained before, I take scripture at face value, which includes our instructions as to how to determine what is true and what is not true in regards to it.  By that I mean, how one "tests" something against scripture, if a belief hinges on a single verse with no supporting scripture, it simply won't do.  God built witnesses into scripture for a reason, and as Paul explained in his letter to Timothy, every single word holds meaning.

I agree.

On 6/27/2020 at 3:52 PM, wingnut- said:

So, in regards to Noah, let's just look at the facts.

1.  The Second Coming will be just like it was in Noah's day.

2.  It is sudden destruction, life will be going on as usual right up until the storm hits.  It is not slow and gradual, it is immediate and permanent. (This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to follow it.)

3.  The Second Coming and the gathering occur at or near the same moment.  Every mention of them is together in scripture, they are linked.

I wish I could fully agree wingnut-, but what you refer to as "the facts" I see a little differently.  According to my interpretations...

1.  It is things at the time of Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church that will be just like they were in Noah's day.  Interestingly, interpreted this way, everything that Jesus speaks about in Matthew 24:29-51, Mark 13:24-37, and Luke 21:25-36 connects with the very day of the rapture.  Everything.

2.  I believe I agree with your statement here, but what you have in parenthesis kinda throws me.  As I understand your position, don't you mean, This negates the idea of a 7 year period of time to PRECEDE it?

3.  Christ's Sign Return and His Second Coming do not occur at or near the same moment.  Sometimes they are mentioned separately in Scripture.  In Matthew's account of the Olivet Discourse, Jesus speaks of His Second Coming in 24:26-28 and then of His Sign Return in 24:29-31.  In The Revelation, Jesus' Sign Return is shown to occur in 6:12-7:17 (with the opening of the 6th Seal, which corresponds to Matt. 24:29-31) and then His Second Coming is shown to occur in 19:11-21 (which corresponds to Matt. 24:26-28).  In II Thessalonians 2, Christ's Sign Return for the gathering of the Church is spoken of in verse one, and then His Second Coming (i.e., the Day of Christ/KJV) is spoken of in verses two and eight.

On 6/27/2020 at 3:52 PM, wingnut- said:

Now this is how the concept of Noah breaks down in my view, as far as what the event itself represents concerning future application.  The ark represents safety and security against the coming storm and destruction of the planet by the flood, which God is doing.  The ark is the equivalent of our guarantee in the Holy Spirit, available for everyone who accepts Christ's gift of salvation.

Noah and his family took years to build this ark, representative of our personal walk with Christ as we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  Noah continued to warn the people that a storm was coming, just as we are instructed to deliver the gospel message to people, so they can build their "ark" to escape the coming storm.  The storm represents God's judgement on the wicked, not the righteous.  Since we know scripture tells us no one is righteous, that would seem ominous except for the fact scripture tells us though we are not righteous, we are MADE righteous.  How are we made righteous?  By the seal of the Holy Spirit, our guarantee, our ark.  Noah and his family were not removed from the earth, or going through the flood, they just were protected from the judgement by the ark, just as believers will not be subject to any of God's judgement in the future, we have our arks as well.

As I see it, Noah and his family experienced deliverance from the flood, which would be equivalent to the Day of the Lord for the wicked.  Same with Lot and his daughters in the Sodom and Gomorrah destruction.  None of the flood came, none of the flood started, till Noah and His family were safe within the ark.  The ark represented God's plan for deliverance.  Same with Lot and his daughters in their experience.

I believe the primary purpose for Jesus' use of the example of the ark (and Lot's deliverance) was not to convey the nature of the deliverance, but the importance of being ready for the deliverance.  This is the tenor of everything that is said relating to the period of the Day of the Lord, which includes Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see anyway that Scripture can be correctly interpreted to fit a post-trib deliverance.  Simply put, such to me is as difficult as it would have been for us, if we had lived in Noah's day, to be considering whether our boarding of the ark would be pre-flood, mid-flood, or post-flood.

Well, wingnut-, time has really gotten away from me.  I will probably wake up tomorrow and wish I had expressed something a little differently.  It has been a day of a lot of activity and interruptions, if you know what I mean.  I hope I haven't misread or misinterpreted you in any way.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo