A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 7/12/2020 at 2:08 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/11/2020 at 7:25 PM, not an echo said:

Having seen your most recent post, I am taking it that you don't see any of Daniel's 70 Week's prophecy as being left to be fulfilled.  Am I understanding you correctly?

 

If you can, try to examine Daniel's prophecy on its own merit, and put aside all thoughts other than the prophecy in question. 

 

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

 

So, just a few questions for you.

1.  Has the anointed one been cut off?

2.  Was the city and the sanctuary destroyed?

3.  Have the sacrifice and offering been ended?

I believe we will agree that just because a prophecy has been fulfilled in part, this doesn't mean that it has been wholly fulfilled.  For me, this is how I see Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy.  I wish I knew more about how you are seeing it.  I was surprised to learn that you feel it has been fulfilled.  I guess one of my first questions would concern your thinking relating to the covenant that will be confirmed for the "one week" (Dan. 9:27).

When I consider the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, the surrounding chapters with what is said in the last chapter, Jesus' words in Matthew 24:15, and Revelation 10 through Christ's Second Advent, I can't unsee the relation to the 70th Week.  So, I am in disagreement that Daniel's 70th Week (the last week) has been fulfilled at all.  Strong disagreement. 

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/12/2020 at 2:08 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

So everything said up to this point precedes what you and I agree on as the events of the 6th seal.

 

Matthew 24: 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

Once the sixth seal is open, THEN His sign appears in heaven, meaning it is not the events of the 6th seal, but something that follows it.  This is the WHEN, the very question the disciples asked, and this is His answer.  I don't pretend to be an expert myself, but Jesus certainly is, and I choose to believe Him over anyone else's theory.  After all, I have waged my eternal fate on accepting everything He said or did as absolute truth.  I would encourage others to read the Olivet discourse for themselves in the proper context of Him answering specific questions, and then ask themselves if it makes sense He gave them bad information.  Does anyone really think that in responding to WHEN, He would tell them the wrong sequence?

I believe you would have to know that I would not suggest that Jesus gave bad information.  Our differences have to do with our understanding of what Jesus said and our efforts to "rightly divide the Word of Truth."

A lot revolves around the many differing views of what I have been referring to as "the intersecting event" (the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven"/Matt. 24:30) and what Jesus said concerning this taking place "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt. 24:29).  To summarize some of the reasons I see things as I do, what I have put forth harmonizes with an understanding that:

1.  Is supported by 2000 years of Church era history, which aligns with the opening of Jesus' discourse.

2.  Has Jesus' discourse pertaining some to Christians, some to Israelites, and some to both, not to mention the lost.

3.  Recognizes both the first and the second phases of Christ's return in Matthew's account of Jesus' discourse.

4.  Recognizes both the first and the second phases of Christ's return in The Revelation given to John.

5.  Recognizes the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" as relating to the first phase of Christ's return.

6.  Links the first section of Jesus' discourse to the first five seals and the activity of the four horsemen.

7.  Links Christ's Sign Return to His appearance after the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-17).

8.  Links the Mark 13:24-27 and Luke 21:25-27 parallels of Matthew 24:29-31 to the 6th Seal.

9.  Links "all the tribes" in Matthew 24:30 to "all the tribes" of Revelation 7:2-8 (note vs. 4).

10. Links the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 to the rapture trumpet (I Thess. 4:16 and I Cor. 15:52).

11. Links the "gather together" of Matthew 24:31 to the "gathering together" of II Thessalonians 2:1.

12. Links the gathered elect of Matthew 24:31 to the gathered multitude of Revelation 7:9-17.

13. Links "the one shall be taken, and the other left" of Matthew 24:40-41 to the rapture.

14. Links the escape of which Jesus speaks in Luke 21:36 to the Church and Christ's Sign Return.

15. Links Christ's Sign Return to the final fulfilling of Joel's Church era prophecy (Acts 2:16-21).

16. Links Christ's Sign Return to His parable of the fig tree, in accord with the parable's context.

17. Links Christ's return as a "thief" to the day of the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

18. Views none of God's wrath as happening until after the 6th Seal is opened (Rev. 6:17).

19. Views the opening of the 7th Seal as marking the formal beginning of the Day of the Lord.

20. Makes possible a truly consistent and chronological interpretation of The Revelation.

And there is more.  I suppose that for every belief, a measure of faith is also required, and it is no different for my own.  But, as can be seen---and as will be seen more and more---it is not faith without foundation.

According to my understanding, there is coming a time (and it may be before I click on Submit Reply) when God will determine that it has been enough.  At that time, Christ will open the 6th Seal and return for His Church, at which point its tribulation, so long brought on by the activity of the four horsemen, will be forever over.  I see this as being the tribulation Jesus spoke of Matthew 24:29---that of the first section.  The event of Christ's opening of the 6th Seal will include signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars and the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  In my concept, the signs will no doubt linger some, after the Son of man and His saved are long gone---lingering testimonies to those who will be shaking their heads out over what just happened.  According to the evidence of Scripture, on this same day, Christ will also open the seventh, or last seal---meaning He will then open the Seven Sealed Book---meaning the Day of the Lord will have begun.  Things will then come together (and quickly) for the fulfilling of the final week of Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy.

[not an echo]

 On 7/18/2020 at 9:56 AM, not an echo said:

As I see it, Jesus' use of the parable of the fig tree ("and all the trees"/Lk. 21:29) in His Olivet Discourse pertains exclusively to what He has just been saying, and especially what He has just said concerning the event of His "sign" appearance (Matt. 24:29-31).

On 7/18/2020 at 1:49 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 9:56 AM, not an echo said:

I'm not seeing how His statement, "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves" (Matt. 24:32) here represents "the harvest of the earth." 

 

Ok, so here are the basic facts regarding a fig tree, and when the fruit is ripe to harvest.

1.  You can tell that it is time for harvesting figs when the fruit necks wilt and the fruits hang down.  At this time, the branches appear "tender" in that they bend under the weight of the ripe fruit.

2. The fig tree is one of the last trees to bud in the spring and so when it's leaves are budding we know that summer is just around the corner.

3. In mild winter and very long, warm summer regions, a fig tree may ripen two crops in one season, the first in early summer, the second late summer or fall. In cooler summer regions, a fig tree will ripen one crop in late summer.

 

Israel is a region that falls in that first group which harvests figs starting in early April and lasting typically until late August.  So when you understand the harvest cycle of the fig tree, particularly in regards to Israel, as well as the natural parameters of the tree itself, you can see how it lays out precisely to every detail what Jesus describes in the Olivet discourse.

Relating (for now) to Jesus' parable of the fig tree, I think something is missed when what Luke says is not considered.  He says that Jesus said, "and all the trees" (Lk. 21:29).  Whatever the specific characteristics of the fig tree, we need to find the common denominator that is here being alluded to.  With all trees, what is it that indicates for us that "summer is nigh" (Matt. 24:32)?  When the "branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves" (Mk. 13:28).  Or, as Luke records, "When they now shoot forth" (Lk. 21:30).  It does not look to me as though what is in view with this parable is the harvest.

Relating to the parable as a whole, Luke records Jesus' words thus, "So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the Kingdom of God is nigh at hand" (Lk. 21:30).  As I read Luke's account (in conjunction with Matthew and Mark's), there is no escaping that the parable is relating to what I have referred to as the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  This is the same event that Luke writes of in Luke 21:25-28, just before the parable.  This is also the same event that happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.

I need to move forward, but concisely, as I am understanding everything, before Christ's Second Advent, there is going to "appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  This will happen at the opening of the 6th Seal, as all the points of convergence indicate.  Then, some seven years later (after the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week), He will come as the King of kings and Lord of lords for the Battle of Armageddon and to rule upon this earth for 1000 years.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/18/2020 at 3:59 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 12:40 PM, not an echo said:

I see this as being especially a "sign" for the Israelites, during which 144,000 will be saved.  Note the link, "all the tribes" of Matt.24:30 with "all the tribes" of Rev. 7:4, not to mention all the other prophetic points of convergence.

Concerning your last paragraph, as I see it, what "immediately follows the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" (spoken of in Matt. 24:15-26), is His Second Coming, which He speaks to in the very next verses...

 27  For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west;  so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 28  For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

 

Ok, here we are having a complete breakdown in understanding.  Perhaps I am just not understanding you, so based on what you stated, here are my objections.

1.  You state above that verses 27 and 28 come AFTER verse 30, but clearly numerically speaking you have that backwards.

2.  You seem to be suggesting that the sign of His coming is specifically for the Israelites, are you suggesting that if this brilliant light appears in the sky ( and is the only light in the sky based on the events of the 6th seal having preceded it) that only one race of people are going to notice?

To expand on why this doesn't hold up under scrutiny, please refer back to the events of the 6th seal itself and the results of it.  I think it is pretty obvious from the response of the earth's inhabitants, that the tribes of the earth mentioned in the Olivet discourse include all people.

 

Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, 16 calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Concerning 1.

According to my understanding, Matthew 24:27-28, is of Christ's Second Advent (Rev. 19:11-21), which concludes what Jesus says in His discourse relating to Daniel's 70th Week, the account of which begins in verse 15.  Then, verses 29-31 begins His focus on what I have been calling the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  which will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal.  My scriptural support for this position revolves partly around how all of this dovetails with what we see in The Revelation.

Said another way, I see a dividing line of thought between verse 28 and 29, because we see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" happening with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6, but His coming "as the lightning" for the battle of Armageddon coming much later, in Revelation 19.

Concerning 2.

No.  Just because it is a sign primarily for the Israelites, this does not mean that they alone will see it.  But, only the 144,000 will be converted, or sealed.  They will be the firstfruits of the Israelite nation (Rev. 14:1-4, esp. vs. 4), which will experience salvation at Christ's Second Advent.

Concerning your last sentence, I have been looking for a place in the Bible where the word "tribes" refers to Gentiles.  Maybe I will find it when I have more time.  Have you found a place?  Of course, we know that the word "tribes" is used repeatedly concerning the Jews, and "all the tribes" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:30 is another point of convergence with "all the tribes" spoken of by John in Revelation 7:4.  Further, there is the gathered "elect" (the Church) spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:31, which is another point of convergence with the "great multitude" spoken of by John in Revelation 7:9.

On 7/18/2020 at 3:59 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 12:40 PM, not an echo said:

I see the "tribulation" Jesus speaks of in verse 29 not as being "the period in which the beast has carried out his 3 1/2 year war on the saints" but rather, the tribulation of the Church era, effected by the activity of the four horsemen of the Church era---what Jesus spoke of in the opening section of His Discourse (Matt. 24:4-14).

 

Ok, so my response to this is quite simple, the adherence to dispensationalism often has the effect of blinding one to the evidence of things they already know, so that they can continue to adhere to dispensationalism...

Anything that I say that appears to stem from dispensationalism is merely incidental.

When I think of man's need for salvation and how God has worked relating to that, my mind goes to the Promised Seed, spoken of in Genesis 3:15.  I kinda like to express it this way:  In the Old Testament days, they were to look forward to the Promised Seed who would come.  In these New Testament days, we look backward to the Promised Seed who has come.  Further, we need to always look upward to God who became the Promised Seed in the Person of Jesus Christ, and inward to Christ's presence in our lives (by His Holy Spirit) as born-again Christians.

God worked through the line of Seth, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to found the Nation through whom the Promised Seed would come.  When the Promised Seed came and was rejected by His chosen Nation, God began to work through His chosen Church to proclaim the message of the Gospel, the Good News concerning what He did for us through the Promised Seed---Jesus Christ.

It is only through what God has done for us through the Promised Seed that we can be saved.  One day, when the fulness of God's desire is met relating to this world, there will be closure.  As I see it, that day will begin with the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man (the Promised Seed) in heaven."  Very huge is this event, and much overlooked by man, IMHO.  But, the event can happen today.

The appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  which occurs with the opening of the 6th Seal, will mark the day that the Seven Sealed Book will be opened, as the 7th Seal will be opened the same day.  This book, I believe, could rightly be entitled, THE DAY OF THE LORD.  Within its pages are everything John recorded from its opening through the time of the Last Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).  Then will begin that "Happily Ever After" part for The Father and all of His Children.

Again, as I see it, the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" can take place today.  This is what everything in the last section of Jesus' discourse (Matt. 24:29-51;  Mk. 13:24-37;  and Lk. 21:25-36) concerns.  Everything.

On 7/18/2020 at 3:59 PM, wingnut- said:

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

There are two important aspects to account for from these two passages, first, the fact that Luke makes it clear that some of these events are very clearly, directly specific to the actual people sitting in front of Jesus at the time.  They are being told that THEY will be persecuted and some put to death, and how to deal with that when it occurs.  Secondly, there is specific timing given as to when those specifics are going to occur which I highlighted above.  This reveals that how you are trying to divide the answer to the questions by sectioning off entire passages into ages is fatally flawed.  You have to account for all the information.

If you will notice, what you have in bold puts what Jesus says in verses 12-19 before the "sights" and "signs" of verse 11---with the part that I have been referring to as the first section.  I see the sights and signs of which Jesus speaks in verse 11 as linking this section to the event he gives his account of in verses 25-27.  Very important to notice.  Now, notice how what Jesus said in verses 25-27 harmonizes with Matthew 24:29-31 and is like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal.  All of this revolves around the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  the intersecting event between the era of the Church (of which we are a part) and the Day of the Lord (which includes Daniel's 70th Week).

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/18/2020 at 3:59 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 12:40 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your statement, "You already recognize that the 6th seal is at the end of the great tribulation based on your statements above since you understand these two passages speak to the same thing," this is not the case at all, but I am taking it that you just did not realize this yet.  Though you may yet disagree (and I'm not offended in any way if you do), I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event of Christ's "Sign" Appearance, the fulfillment of which will take place with the opening of the 6th Seal.

 

Again, we differ greatly on our understanding of what a sign is.  I understand that pre-trib needs to create an event to account for something that does not appear in scripture, which would be an extra visit by the Lord, so while it is creative in that regard, I still reject the notion because it fails to meet the "test" of scripture.  A "sign" is given as direction, it points you to an event, it is not an event in and of itself.

To put it in modern day perspective, imagine you decide to take a road trip to Chicago for example.  As you travel down the highway, you will occasionally come across "signs" on the road that may for example state, Chicago 266 miles.  It wouldn't occur to you to pull over at this sign and start celebrating your arrival in Chicago, because you are not in Chicago, the sign is merely pointing you in a direction, not telling you that you have arrived at the destination.

Well, my time is getting away from me wingnut-, but I have some thoughts concerning your above reply that I would like to close with.

I almost see your strait-jacketing of the meaning of the word "sign" as being a sign to me  of your resistance to really consider what I am saying.  I think a better example of a sign (and more related to our discussion) might be what we find in Isaiah 7:

 14  Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign;  Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Interestingly, here we have a sign preceding Christ's First Advent.  I don't know why it should seem to be an odd thing that the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" would precede Christ's Second Advent.

Concerning signs, have you ever been driving down the interstate and saw the billboard sign that says something like, McDonald's---Exit 45, or McDonald's---8 miles?  Now wingnut-, when you get to that exit, if you are fairly observant, you will see those big double arches.  That is a sign that right there is where you can get you a Happy Meal. 

When my wife was great with our first and only child (28 years ago), she was standing in the kitchen and all of a sudden water started streaming down her legs into the floor!  Now, that right there was "an event in and of itself" let me tell you!  And a sure sign that we better be getting ourselves to the hospital.  The son was born shortly.

There are all kinds of signs.  I thought about giving you 20 examples, but it's late, and I thought maybe one more might do.  Jesus said, "and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  As I see it, this is going to be an event.  It's gonna happen quick, and it's gonna be over quick.  And, it's not going to be a good time to be left behind.

I hope you understand my spirit.  Some answers for me are quite easy, and some can be more difficult.  Sometimes it is a challenge just to contemplate the objections one might have to what is said.  If I'm right about "the sign" does that make me right about everything else?  No.  But, I think it might mean (or be a sign) that you need to look at what I'm saying a little closer---do you think?

Hey, got to hit the sack.  I hope to get in a few more installments before next weekend.  We'll see...

(Well, I was fixing to sign off and the Lord just kinda put it on my heart to let you know that I am always prayerful about my replies.  Hoping that you are prayerful too...)

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[douggg]

I show the sign of the son of man in heaven on my chart of the second half of the seven years down below.

[wingnut-]

On 8/9/2020 at 6:30 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your question, I am speaking about that that will occur at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  when the Church will be gathered (Matt. 24:31).  This is also at the same time Paul speaks of in I Thessalonians 5 when the Church will escape the period of the Day of the Lord (which is not Daniel's 70th Week, but includes it).  This happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.

 

All of which Jesus says is, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...", so you continue to try and change it to immediately before the tribulation of those days rather than accept what He said.

As for I Thessalonians 5, there is not one mention of the gathering in that chapter, not one.  It would however have been a perfect place for Paul to have said something like, you won't be surprised like a thief, because you won't be here for it, rather than saying that it won't surprise them because they are not in darkness.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 6:30 PM, not an echo said:

The thing of the Church being raptured prior to Daniel's 70th Week is a matter of the fulfilling of Bible prophecy, and has less to do with the nature of the tribulation that the Church will experience and more to do with what has been prophesied concerning the Israelite nation.

 

If the church being gathered prior to the tribulation is a matter of fulfilling bible prophecy, then it shouldn't be so difficult to produce the scripture that states that, right?  As far as what was prophesied concerning the Israelite nation, I've already shown you that regarding the remnant that will be saved it is not tribulation, but restoration.  You have yet to address Revelation 12, or Hosea's prophecy.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 6:30 PM, not an echo said:

For example, do you not think that Jesus' words in Matthew 24:15-21 pertain to the Israelites?

 

There are only two groups of people, saved and unsaved.  For example, do you think that passage would have pertained to Luke, a Greek, if he happened to be there when these events unfolded?  Those who want to separate the Israelites from the Gentiles with this passage do so on the basis of those in Judea being told to flee, do you think it matters as to nationality or to what one believes?

 

On 8/9/2020 at 6:30 PM, not an echo said:

As far as the Church, I believe we are in full agreement that it is one body, whether a saved Jew or Gentile.  All that come to Christ are a part of the same body.  Also, at the time of Christ's Second Advent, when the Israelites as a nation will experience salvation, I see them as becoming a part of the body of Christ as well...all equally God's children.  Same during Christ's Millennial Reign.  All who are saved will be equally God's children, and in my thinking, none will be "shunned from the marriage supper."

 

Ok, so for the sake of clarity, you don't see the marriage supper as taking place for those gathered while the tribulation is ongoing?  Typically this is a standard for pre-trib as to what they will be doing during this time, so I am just wanting to know if you disagree with that.  Because if you believe the marriage supper is taking place while the tribulation is happening on earth, then you are in fact shunning all those not present.

 

 

[wingnut-]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, not an echo said:

I believe we will agree that just because a prophecy has been fulfilled in part, this doesn't mean that it has been wholly fulfilled.

 

I am not sure what you mean to know if I agree or not because you did not reference a prophetic example.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, not an echo said:

I wish I knew more about how you are seeing it.  I was surprised to learn that you feel it has been fulfilled.  I guess one of my first questions would concern your thinking relating to the covenant that will be confirmed for the "one week" (Dan. 9:27).

 

Well, I am certainly willing to discuss that which is why I asked you those three questions.  You quoted them, so I know you saw them, yet you chose not to address them.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, not an echo said:

When I consider the 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27, the surrounding chapters with what is said in the last chapter, Jesus' words in Matthew 24:15, and Revelation 10 through Christ's Second Coming, I can't unsee the relation to the 70th Week.

 

What you need to do is look at Daniel's prophecy on its own merit, what it says, and whether or not those things have taken place.  If your desire is truth, then you will have to address those questions regarding what is prophesied, objectively.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, not an echo said:

So, I am in disagreement that Daniel's 70th Week (the last week) has been fulfilled at all.  Strong disagreement. 

 

Strong disagreement but no answers.  In this case silence is deafening.  They aren't difficult questions, all yes or no, and all directly related to what is stated in the prophesy.  So I wonder what it is you disagree with?

[wingnut-]

On 8/9/2020 at 9:08 PM, not an echo said:

I believe you would have to know that I would not suggest that Jesus gave bad information.

 

Of course, I don't believe for a moment you would think that.  Which is why it makes no sense that you would suggest that when He says it is after the tribulation of those days you seem to read it as before the tribulation of those days.  As I've pointed out now several times, nowhere after this point is there any more talk about tribulation, so there is no scriptural reason for you to do so.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 9:08 PM, not an echo said:

A lot revolves around the many differing views of what I have been referring to as "the intersecting event"

 

Because it appears to be an invisible event you speak of so it is unconvincing to all of us who are still waiting for a single scripture to support it.  All those Old Testament prophecies regarding the Israelites, and still not one single offering to illustrate what you have claimed.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 9:08 PM, not an echo said:

According to my understanding, there is coming a time (and it may be before I click on Submit Reply) when God will determine that it has been enough.

 

If you are referring to imminency, that has more holes in it than swiss cheese as well.  The disciples certainly did not teach it or believe it, I could list numerous examples of things they were told would happen that make this impossible.  For example, they knew Peter would die beforehand, they knew the temple and the city would be destroyed beforehand, and so on.

[wingnut-]

On 8/9/2020 at 11:13 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning 1.

According to my understanding, Matthew 24:27-28, is of Christ's Second Coming (Rev. 19:11-21), which concludes what Jesus says in His discourse relating to Daniel's 70th Week, the account of which begins in verse 15.  Then, verses 29-31 begins His focus on what I have been calling the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  which will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal.  My scriptural support for this position revolves partly around how all of this dovetails with what we see in The Revelation.

 

Well you lost me right there, and it doesn't matter how many times you say it.  You are reading something into scripture that just isn't there and have built a theory around that rather than just reading what scripture actually says.  What I believe fits perfectly, and I don't have to change a thing or read anything into scripture to get there.  Our biggest point of difference is that you read something in that isn't there, and what I believe is based on what scripture actually says.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 11:13 PM, not an echo said:

Said another way, I see a dividing line of thought between verse 28 and 29, because we see the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" happening with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6, but His coming "as the lightning" for the battle of Armageddon coming much later, in Revelation 19.

 

That's strange, considering where in the Olivet discourse it is found.  When you read it in context, funny how Jesus relates it to people trying to mislead others regarding whether the Lord has arrived or not.  It would seem He is making it clear that there is no mistaking His coming.

 

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

 

Then of course there is what Paul said, and ironically this is one of the passages you have attempted to change His coming into your alternate event.

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

 

Please explain how your alternate event can result in the end of the lawless one, just by the appearance of His coming, and then 7 years of tribulation follow in which the lawless one would be a crucial figure?

Can't have it both ways, it is either one or the other.  This is why attempting to change a known event such as His coming into anything else falls apart.

 

On 8/9/2020 at 11:13 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning 2.

No.  Just because it is a sign primarily for the Israelites, this does not mean that they alone will see it.  But, only the 144,000 will be converted, or sealed.  They will be the firstfruits of the Israelite nation (Rev. 14:1-4, esp. vs. 4), which will experience salvation at Christ's Second Coming.

Concerning your last sentence, I have been looking for a place in the Bible where the word "tribes" refers to Gentiles.  Maybe I will find it when I have more time.  Have you found a place?  Of course, we know that the word "tribes" is used repeatedly concerning the Jews, and "all the tribes" spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:30 is another point of convergence with "all the tribes" spoken of by John in Revelation 7:4.  

 

My friend, you cannot conclude that the 6th seal is the same event as the one in the Olivet discourse and then disregard what is said from one of those two accounts.  The fact is simple, in Revelation it specifically states that EVERYONE sees this and reacts to it.  Why are you trying to split the Jewish people off as though what is said at the 6th seal has no application, or that what is said in the Olivet discourse has no application for Gentiles?  It is either the same event or it is not, and either way everyone is addressed.  In regards to the Jews specifically, maybe the question you should ask yourself is why if what you say is true they would wait around in Judea to "SEE" the abomination of desolation if they are aware of what is going on 3.5 years before it takes place?

 

On 8/9/2020 at 11:13 PM, not an echo said:

Further, there is the gathered "elect" (the Church) spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24:31, which is another point of convergence with the "great multitude" spoken of by John in Revelation 7:9.

 

Again, you are reading something into scripture that is not there.  The great multitude are people who have died during the tribulation as a result of the war on the saints.  At some point you need to address Revelation 12 and the group that "holds to the testimony of Jesus" while the Jewish remnant is protected in the wilderness.  Or the saints from chapter 13 the beast is waging war on, where do you think they go after they are killed?

 

On 8/9/2020 at 11:13 PM, not an echo said:

Any thing that I say that appears to stem from dispensationalism is merely incidental.

 

The reason I bring it up is because your theory is largely based on the exact same principles, mainly viewing or dividing up the great tribulation based on the Jewish people.  The great tribulation has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with judgement on the wicked, doesn't matter what nationality.  In fact, when you see the 144,000 sealed, what you should see is that they are being protected from the judgments, not subjected to them.  When you read Revelation 12, you see the remnant being taken out of the dragon's reach, not subjected to it.  Protected from God's actions, protected from the enemies actions, yet somehow the tribulation is all about their race and not about who is wicked and who belongs to God?

 

On 8/9/2020 at 11:13 PM, not an echo said:

If you will notice, what you have in bold puts what Jesus says in verses 12-19 before the "sights" and "signs" of verse 11---with the part that I have been referring to as the first section.  I see the sights and signs of which Jesus speaks in verse 11 as linking this section to the event he gives his account of in verses 25-27.  Very important to notice.  Now, notice how what Jesus said in verses 25-27 harmonizes with Matthew 24:29-31 and is like a paraphrase of John's account of the 6th Seal.  All of this revolves around the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  the intersecting event between the era of the Church (of which we are a part) and the Day of the Lord (which includes Daniel's 70th Week).

 

Ok great, although there still seems to be some difference perhaps.  In relation to the great signs and terrors from heaven, don't you think that includes more than just the events you mention?  For example, how about the two witnesses and the false prophet who can bring fire down from heaven, or stopping rain from falling?  How about the angels flying overhead giving warnings?  How about wormwood?

It is about more than just a sign.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Note how signs is plural, not singular, and don't forget the terrors.