A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[douggg]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

All of which Jesus says is, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...", so you continue to try and change it to immediately before the tribulation of those days rather than accept what He said.

I agree - we can't have that.     The sign of the Son of Man in heaven is at the very end of the seven years.

[wingnut-]

On 8/9/2020 at 10:02 PM, not an echo said:

Relating (for now) to Jesus' parable of the fig tree, I think something is missed when what Luke says is not considered.  He says that Jesus said, "and all the trees" (Lk. 21:29).  Whatever the specific characteristics of the fig tree, we need to find the common denominator that is here being alluded to.

 

The common denominator in all three accounts is the parable of the fig tree, and the specifics that are referred to are in relation to the fig tree and the fruit it produces as well as the season.

 

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

I almost see your strait-jacketing of the meaning of the word "sign" as being a sign to me  of your resistance to really consider what I am saying.  I think a better example of a sign (and more related to our discussion) might be what we find in Isaiah 7:

 14  Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign;  Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Interestingly, here we have a sign preceding Christ's First Advent.  I don't know why it should seem to be an odd thing that the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" would precede Christ's Second Advent.

 

Still not seeing this the same, as you can see from Isaiah's prophecy the sign was in regards to the Messiah, and it involved Him actually being born.  The sign was recognized after His birth to others, Mary knew ahead of time because she was told, as was Joseph.

 

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

When my wife was great with our first and only child (28 years ago), she was standing in the kitchen and all of a sudden water started streaming down her legs into the floor!  Now, that right there was "an event in and of itself" let me tell you!  And a sure sign that we better be getting ourselves to the hospital.  The son was born shortly.

 

Well I'm glad you all got to the hospital in time, but again the water breaking is a sign that the child is coming.  You didn't celebrate it, but I wager you celebrated the birth of your son.     Signs as I stated previously point us to something.

 

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

I hope you understand my spirit.

 

I think I do brother, I hope you understand mine lol.

 

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

(Well, I was fixing to sign off and the Lord just kinda put it on my heart to let you know that I am always prayerful about my replies.  Hoping that you are prayerful too...)

 

Always my friend, I look forward to the next installment.

[not an echo]

 

On 7/18/2020 at 4:51 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 2:37 PM, not an echo said:

I'm thinking that I may understand what you are saying here, just not sure.  Concisely, I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal, and then Jesus' Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign being at least seven years later.  What I think you are saying is that Matthew 24:29-31 shows "the sign of the Son of Man" appearing in heaven, after which "they will see the Son of Man coming" for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.  If this is what you are saying, I guess my first question concerns what kind of interval of time you see between the appearance of "the sign" and His coming? 

 

I'm glad that you are starting to understand my view of things, that certainly helps with the discussion.  I have the advantage of understanding the pre-trib theory in that I once also believed that would be the case, although in some circumstances your viewpoint deviates so at times there is still some confusion on my part.  The biggest hurdle we have is the chronology issue in regards to Revelation, so what you have to do when considering what I say is realize that there is no chronology to Revelation presented.  Interestingly enough, even when I was pre-trib, I have never found Revelation chronological, so it isn't something I can relate to.

Hello again wingnut- (and all),

Well, my week didn't turn out as planned (I bet you/ya'll can relate to that!) and neither has my day.  When I tried to log in today, the site wouldn't let me and wouldn't take my password.  Did anyone else have that problem?  It has happened to me one other time.  Usually I just push sign in and I'm on.  It may have been my computer and something to do with cookies and an update that it wanted to do earlier this week.  Ugh...  Annnyway, I'm gonna make a go at seeing how many installments I can get in today.

Before I get started, I mentioned in my OP that views are a lot like forests, and sometimes it is hard to see the forest for the trees.  Also, I mentioned something to the effect that my 36 propositions are like trees, and that each has limbs.  I might go on to add that there are leaves and nuts as well (but no wingnuts ).  Weeell, I felt that it might be good again to share a couple of my charts at this time, which show a high bird's-eye view (like an eagle's view) so that no one loses sight of the big picture, as I see it:

 

Concerning your above reply wingnut-, as I see The Revelation, the first 10 chapters cannot be presented any more chronologically than they are.  It is not even within the realm of possibility.  And when it is observed that the next 10 chapters continue to proceed in a logical, chronological manner---with some repeating and/or overlaps of information---The Revelation takes on an even higher degree of remarkableness.  Of course, the last two chapters are like the icing on the cake.  There's never been better icing on a cake!

Further concerning chapters 11-20, I see what happens after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet as being the 7th Trumpet Period (Rev. 11:15-20:15), something much longer than the time frame of a "twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:52).  When you consider the brief overview of what happens after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15-19), you can see this expounded for the next nine chapters.  Further, there is a progression of events and explanatory information that is such that I see this section of The Revelation as having a logical chronological order also---of an overlapping nature, as I indicated above.  Briefly, the main events of these chapters can be expressed as follows:

THE SEVENTH TRUMPET PERIOD

(REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

(REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

(REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED

(REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED

(REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED

(REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE (Satan's Religious Kingdom) DISCLOSED

(REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT (Satan's Political Kingdom) DISCLOSED

(REV. 19)---THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST DISCLOSED

(REV. 20)---MILLENNIAL REIGN OF CHRIST AND LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED.

I go into more detail concerning this (with very simple illustrations) in my thread entitled, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  I do need to spend some more time in my thread concerning the chronological order of The Revelation, and I will when I get time.  I also have a break down of each of these chapters.  Each deserves its own thread.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations

[not an echo]

On 7/18/2020 at 4:51 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 2:37 PM, not an echo said:

I'm thinking that I may understand what you are saying here, just not sure.  Concisely, I see Matthew 24:29-31 as being the event that will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal, and then Jesus' Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign being at least seven years later.  What I think you are saying is that Matthew 24:29-31 shows "the sign of the Son of Man" appearing in heaven, after which "they will see the Son of Man coming" for the Battle of Armageddon and His Millennial Reign.  If this is what you are saying, I guess my first question concerns what kind of interval of time you see between the appearance of "the sign" and His coming? 

As far as the time gap between the sign of His coming and His actual arrival on the Mt. of Olives there is no specific length of time given in scripture.  I am not one for making predictions, but based on my overall understanding the time required between will come down to factors that are unknown to us.  What I mean by that is this, the travel time associated with His coming relates to the amount of time required for the enemy forces to gather for Armageddon.  Depending on who that includes and their physical location, available means of travel at that time, etc., the length of time would vary on that basis.  I do not believe we are talking about a lengthy amount of time at all, based on what I read in scripture those involved will be from that region of the world.

However, according to my understanding of your view, it seems that you are seeing "the time gap between the sign of His coming and His actual arrival on the Mt. of Olives" happening very, very close together---like within the hour (hope I'm not misrepresenting anything).  I don't have any idea how you account for everything John sees between the opening of the 6th Seal and Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon taking place.  If you are doing a stack and trying to conjoin these events, then you have a lot preceding these events that must be accounted for, so that the situation will not be anything like it was in the days of Noah when "they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" (Matt. 24:37-39).  Somehow you have to account for a lot that we find in The Revelation, either before, or after Christ's Sign Event and Second Advent.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 4:51 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the disciples asking Jesus very specific questions, Jesus did not always answer questions in accord with how they were asked.  My mind goes to His dialogue with the rich young ruler (Matt. 19:16-22).  Now, whereas we might not know just how to ask the best and most appropriate questions, Jesus knows just how to give the best and most appropriate answers.

 

I agree with you, and I am not asserting that the questions have to be answered in the order they were asked, what I am asserting is that the questions would be answered with the correct response.  In regards to the specific details regarding the information He shared with them, it is not done in any specific order, which I already have pointed out in a previous post you haven't gotten to yet.  This is precisely the issue that arises when you are dividing things up by entire segments of scripture, each line must be accounted for in all three gospel accounts.

I think from what I reveal with scripture in that post not long ago, is when you state that Matthew 24:4-14 applies to what you refer to as the "church era", Luke clarifies that these very things precede what Matthew and Mark refer to as sorrows or birth pains, respectively.  The point is, the "church era" began with the disciples and continues to this very day, and that after discussing all the various aspects of the tribulation period, Jesus then tells them the WHEN regarding His sign.  In all three accounts it is AFTER all the tribulation that He disclosed, including the AoD and the period of time He defines as the "great tribulation".

The elephant in the room that you cannot avoid, is that following verse 29 there are no more references to tribulation of any kind, and that would be because it all occurred before the statement, "immediately after the tribulation of those days".  Everything that follows in chapter 24 and 25 relates to His coming and what transpires after His coming.

The reason that "there are no more references to tribulation of any kind" following what is said in Matthew 24:29 is because everything from verse 29 through verse 51 concerns the moment of the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vs. 30).  This happens at the opening of the 6th Seal, which intersects the time of tribulation related to the first five seals (which corresponds with the first section of Jesus' discourse) and the time of Daniel's 70th Week (which corresponds with the second section of Jesus' discourse).  The Olivet Discourse is a key to understanding The Revelation, and conversely, The Revelation is a key to understanding The Olivet Discourse, especially with sequencing.

As far as the parables in Matthew 25, there is order here as well.  From the perspective of my different view---and in a nutshell---this is how I see the parables of Matthew 25 relating to the last days:

#1---The Parable of the Ten Virgins concerns the time of Christ's Return for the Church.

#2---The Parable of the Talents concerns the time of The Judgment Seat of Christ.

#3---The Parable of the Sheep and Goats concerns the time of Christ's Millennial Reign.

As far as "The elephant in the room,"  I feel that a much bigger elephant (to me, a mega-phant!) is any kind of view that seeks to have Christ's 6th Seal appearance occurring closely, or at the same time as His coming for the Battle of Armageddon---when the 7th Seal would not have even been opened yet.  Or, any kind of view that seeks to conjoin the 7th Trumpet with the 6th Seal.  I'm not even in the proximity of seeing us being afforded that liberty.

On 7/18/2020 at 7:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 4:51 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning their first question ("when shall these things be?"), whereas I see Jesus' answer greatly transcending their specific question, I can also see His answer relating to it.  We know that the first time the temple was destroyed, it was on account of wars.  And Jesus' words, "For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom" would have certainly rung in their ears when Jerusalem came under attack.  But now, in retrospect, we can see that what Jesus answers them (in the first section/vss. 4-14) transcends their time in a Divinely remarkable way---to the tune of 20 centuries worth of remarkable ways!

In regards to your bringing up the attack on Jerusalem, and how they may have viewed it, I would like to remind you of a subtle difference between Luke and the other two accounts.

 

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

 

Luke's account varies from Matthew and Mark in that the first verse of this section from the other two are in reference to the AoD rather than Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.  How the disciples still living at the time viewed this I cannot say, but it is interesting that Luke, who was not an apostle, gives the different viewpoint in this regard.  Whether they were aware of John's Revelation at this point or not I cannot say, but if we assume they were not then it is most likely they would have believed this event took place in their time.

The reason Revelation is significant is because in chapter 11 John discusses these events, the trampling of Jerusalem by the Gentiles, and the timing related to the two witnesses.  There is no historical account or version that can address the two witnesses, their 3 1/2 year ministry in Jerusalem, their subsequent death, and their bodies rising after 3 1/2 days as they are called up to heaven, so it is safe to assume this is still future.

I see what Jesus speaks about in these sections of His discourse as being "still future" as well.  What Luke says concerning this (Lk. 21:20-24) I see as being supplemental to the same time of which Matthew and Mark give an account.

I can see Satan hoping that Christians would see what happened in 70 A.D. as being the fulfilling of Jesus' words, but when it is looked at closely, it doesn't.  Kinda like a clarification John made in John 21:

 22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?  follow thou Me.

 23  Then when this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die:  yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die;  but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?   

On 7/18/2020 at 7:27 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 4:51 PM, not an echo said:

it seems to me that it is in our face that Matthew 24:4-14 concerns the era of the Church, verses 15-28 concerns Daniel's 70th Week, and verses 29-51 concerns the very day of the event that will dissect the era of the Church from Daniel's 70th Week. 

 

Again this conflicts with itself, and some of your own statements in regards to it.  For example, the entire passage from verses 4-28 contain the same events in both of the sections you are separating from each other and they also make distinctions in timing from the very same passages you are separating into their own group.

Again, it should not surprise us that there would be false Christs to arise in the time of Daniel's 70th Week, in competition for the reins of the world.  We know that the Beast will rise to prominence.  And though all the things that Jesus speaks of in the first section are not repeated, it looks like to me that much, if not all will be, as things will be worse across the board than they are now.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:41 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 4:51 PM, not an echo said:

Wingnut-, as I see it, if you ever do see it, you won't ever be able to unsee it.  Now, maybe similar would be true if I ever saw the layout of your view.  But I haven't...

 

Well, until the chronology issue is addressed it would be difficult to go into too much detail, but I did touch on some of the aspects of timing in a post you haven't gotten to yet.  What I'm trying to avoid is throwing too much on the fire at once, right now we already have multiple topics under discussion.  I don't have any problem answering any question you might have, but right now we are still circling chronology, and also how we view the future of the Israeli people.  These are pretty large topics on their own merit, but if you want to delve into something else, feel free.

Well, we certainly have a lot "on the fire" for the time.  With me having had to play catch up so much, I am anxious concerning the progress we are making and what our takeaways will be when we understand each other better.  I am finding as I have looked ahead that for me to just make some basic clarifying statements may help as much as anything.  That's has been a hard thing for me to do, however, with so much that factors in to how I see things.  I have been struggling to grasp how your view can be true to Scripture, all the while not knowing but little bits and pieces of it.  If you had a chart or a more systematic layout of it, that would be helpful.  For me, there is so much structure and symmetry to how I am seeing things that it is like a well kept park forest that can be appreciated.  I hope you will look further at it and not lose sight of what is apparent because of a tree or a limb here or there that you have never seen before.  On the other hand, I am trying to talk to you about some of your trees and I have no idea what your forest looks like.

Got to go...

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[douggg]

@ not an echo @wingnut

 

I will tell you guys this about Matthew 24:

Matthew 24:15-31 is about what the Jews will go through, the great tribulation.   The warning for them in Judaea to flee into the mountains (for divine protection implied) is for them, when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place.   Not the church.

Matthew 24:32-51 is for the church.   To be aware of the times and be watching for the rapture in order not to have to go through the great tribulation.   Which is why we are talking about the parable of the fig tree, verse 32,  and the Jews are not.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

At first, I wasn't for sure what you were getting at by "First, there is nothing prior to your third section that indicates anyone going anywhere."  I'm thinking, you must mean that if I'm seeing the first section as referring to the era of the Church, where is the evidence there of it being raptured?  Going with what I think you are meaning, I don't see Jesus' mentioning of anything concerning the rapture until He gets to what I see as the third section, in which, this becomes His entire focus.

 

Yes, that was exactly my point.  There is nothing in the section you have labeled as when the rapture occurs about any rapture or gathering.  Where you find it in your third section is where it belongs, where Jesus placed it, after the tribulation.  Your theory requires moving it without any scriptural support for doing so, which is why it should be rejected.

Hey wingnut-, it looks like maybe I will be able to get a few more installments in before the weekend is done, barring any interruptions, that is... 

I would have to do a time consuming research to see if I had shown my support for this prior to your reply.  In any case, I know that I have spoke to this now and how the sequence in The Revelation supports what I am saying, which to me is very huge.  Something further, using the illustration below, consider what Jesus says in another very related passage from Luke 17 (which doesn't seem to get much attention):

 26  And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

 27  The did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

 28  Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;  they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

 29  But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 30  Even thus shall it be in THE DAY WHEN THE SON OF MAN IS REVEALED.

 31  IN THAT DAY (now note the sequence), he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away:  and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

As I see it, everything taken together, "the day when the Son of man is revealed" will correspond to the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  If "the day when the Son of man is revealed" is Christ's Second Advent, it's going to be a little late to think about the things Jesus is saying in verse 31 above, which corresponds to His words in Matthew 24:15-18, Mark 13:14-16, and Luke 21:20-21.  These are all interlocking pieces of the same portion of the prophetic puzzle, and what I have been referring to as Jesus' Sign Return or Appearance is located by Him, right where I have the arrow for the INTERSECTING EVENT.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[not an echo]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

As I see it, the chronology of The Revelation reinforces the validity of the results of my effort to rightly divide the Olivet Discourse.

 

I think it is a mistake to build your theory around Revelation being chronological, and I am still waiting for you to address what results from the 7th trumpet.

I am sure you would have to be more aware of where I am at on this now.  Right from the top, I see The Revelation as being Divinely chronological.  To concisely review, I see the first 10 chapters as being so very strictly chronological that to reject this is just denial, IMHO.  If this is seen, and I don't know how it cannot be, it is valid for us to see of some pattern continues.  And it does---for the next 10 chapters.  By now you know that I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period, not unlike the 5th of 6th Trumpets, but much longer.  Looking ahead, I know that I will be addressing some other concerns over how I see your position on this, so more at those times. 

[not an echo]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

Concisely, we know that many parallels have been made between the opening section of the Olivet Discourse and the first four seals of The Revelation.

 

We know this?  Based on what exactly?

I believe you probably mistook me to mean that The Bible makes the "many parallels."  What I am saying is that many theologians have made parallels, or seen them.  I'm thinking that you would certainly be aware of this, as I have even seen these alluded to during my relatively short time as a member on the forum.  I do see a parallel that largely goes unnoticed, if not unnoticed altogether, and that is that of the 4th Seal and what Jesus said about martyrdom.  Here is a link to my thread relating to this titled, The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

Also, the 5th Seal connects hard with this, as my thread titled, The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/) shows.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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