A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[douggg]

50 minutes ago, not an echo said:

As I see it, everything taken together, "the day when the Son of man is revealed" will correspond to the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  If "the day when the Son of man is revealed" is Christ's Second Advent, it's going to be a little late to think about the things Jesus is saying in verse 31 above, which corresponds to His words in Matthew 24:15-18, Mark 13:14-16, and Luke 21:20-21.

In Luke 17, that message is to the Jews who will go through the great tribulation.     "'In the day' when the Son of man is revealed" is not talking about the specific singular day.    But in the general timeframe when Jesus will be revealed in heaven.   

 

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Corresponds to Matthew 24:28.  during the great tribulation.

The ones taken and ones left - is not the rapture in Luke 17, but them taken to be forced to bow to the statue image of the beast or be killed.  

 

Differently, the ones taken in Matthew 24:40-41 the ones taken are taken in the rapture.

 

Luke 17:26-37 is a message to the Jews, Israel, who will go through the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:15-31 is a message to the Jews, Israel, who will go through the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:32-51 is a message to Christians, the church, who escape going through the great tribulation, via the rapture.

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by douggg

[not an echo]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

Next, what I refer to as Jesus' Sign Return is what the entirety of the last section concerns, and it easily belongs with the 6th Seal.  By this sequence in The Revelation, the possibility of my placement of the third section is shown to have solid merit. 

 

It actually doesn't have solid merit, and until you address the known events and the timing of those in scripture, such as the three woes, then you still have not shown it.

For the moment, I will address a couple of the known events and see if we can find a place of agreement here:

#1---The appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30) happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:16).  This happens immediately after the tribulation effected by the four horsemen, which parallels what Jesus warned of in the opening of His discourse.

#2---The three woes happen after the 7th Seal is opened and does not factor in any kind of way with the 6th Seal.  The Seven Sealed Book is a book sealed with seven seals.  Just like a treasure chest with seven locks on it, what's inside the chest don't have anything to do with the locks on the outside of the chest, and you don't get to see what's inside the chest until the last lock is removed.  As I understand things, anyway.

[not an echo]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

This leaves us with what Jesus has to say relating to Daniel's 70th Week.  Using Matthew's account, it is elementary to see that 24:15-28 relates to this.

 

Well, again here we disagree, because clearly to me based on scripture and history, the 70th week (for certain the first half of the week) has already occurred.  If you would be so kind, please explain the passage below and specifically, why the desolation is not spoken in future tense.

 

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! 38 See, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

You really threw me here wingnut-.  I'm reminded of how that when we are putting a puzzle together, it is easy to sometimes suppose that when one side of a piece will fit, this may be where the piece goes.  With a puzzle, this is relatively easy to rectify.  With prophecy puzzle pieces, it is a little more difficult.

So, do you believe that what Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 23:38 is the same thing that He is speaking of in 24:15 or Luke 21:20?

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

It is well past the 6th Seal/Sign Return of Christ, as shown in Revelation 6:12-7:17, that we see the little book of Daniel open in Revelation 10 (compare Rev. 10:2 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10). 

 

I couldn't disagree with this speculation more.  For one, Daniel is not a little book, and for two, Revelation 10 speaks of a little scroll, not a book.  This entire premise is not based on scripture at all, therefore it fails the "test" of scripture.

I am feeling almost like I have entered the Twilight Zone with you wingnut-.   First of all, Daniel is a little book compared to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.  When I was learning my books of the Bible as a primary in Sunday School, we learned that it was the littlest of what we called the Major Prophets.  Now, it's not as little as some of the Minor Prophets, especially Obadiah, but that doesn't mean that it's not a little book, does it?  In a basic text only Bible, it represents about a dozen pages.  I don't know of any 12 page book that's not considered a little book.  I guess it may be like beauty, it all depends on the eye of the beholder.

Concerning your statement that "Revelation 10 speaks of a little scroll, not a book,"  the KJV (which is the translation that I grew up with), the KJV (which you said you really like), the KJV reads thus from Revelation 10:

  2   And he had in his hand a little book open:  and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

On my part, if it is a scroll, that would be fine with me.  Don't matter to me!  The only reason I said book is because my Bible reads book.

Concerning your last statement, there you go making me cringe again.  Whereas this has happened a few times now, I want to believe that you didn't mean to.  It just seems that you have a way of putting my replies in a bad light.

As I have mentioned prior, and you indicated likewise, I pray concerning my replies on the forum.  I even pray for us wingnut-, that God would help me as well as you come to an even better understanding because of our discussions.  And, sometimes I would like to say some things that Our Father won't let me say.  This is one of those times.  For me, I live with an awareness that Our Father is always watching us, and I believe He is always tuned in.  Just saying...

Got to turn in and I have a full week ahead.  Will try to check in again next weekend...

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
spelling

[not an echo]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

Consider:

  1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:  and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and the altar, and THEM THAT WORSHIP therein.

A couple of things in this verse really need to be noted.  One, "the temple of God" is in existence here.

 

Indeed, but you haven't explained how you come to the conclusion it is referring to a building!  Considering we know based on scripture, from our New Testament, that the temple of God has for several millennia been within those who are His.

 

I Corinthians 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

Hello wingnut- (and all),

Hope everyone has had a good week.  Certainly interesting times in which we are living.

So, where was I?  Still a few pages back.   As I have indicated somewhere on the forum, I'm kinda slow.  Maybe one of these days I will get caught up.

For those who may not know where we were at above, the verse is from Revelation 11, and again, reads:

  1   And there was given me a reed like unto a rod:  and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure THE TEMPLE OF GOD, and the altar, and THEM THAT WORSHIP therein.

I have pointed out a few times on the forum now that just because the temple of God is here mentioned and worship is happening therein, this doesn't mean that it is Almighty God that is being worshiped.  Because I believe the "little book open" in the preceding chapter (Rev. 10:1) is the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10), and this relates to Jesus' words concerning the "abomination of desolation" and the prophecy of Daniel in Matthew 24:15, I see the one being worshiped here as being none other than the one Paul spoke of in II Thessalonians 2:

  3   Let no man deceive you by any means:  for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

  4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or THAT IS WORSHIPPED;  so that he AS GOD sitteth in THE TEMPLE OF GOD, shewing himself THAT HE IS GOD.

According to Paul, this is going to take place at sometime in the future by one "whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming" (II Thess. 2:8).  This has not happened.  

Concerning your reply wingnut-, to be quite honest, I never thought about the possibility that what is happening in Revelation 11:1 pertains to the temple of our body.  Seems to me to be kind of a bizarre take on things.  Also, you have me wondering about the "them that worship therein."  Who are you thinking the them would be that are worshiping in our body?  And, I'm also going to need some help with your understanding of how the next verse (Rev. 11:2) ties in with the temple of our body.

[not an echo]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:20 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/18/2020 at 11:52 PM, not an echo said:

But 144,000 Jews will be saved, when they get that saving glimpse of Jesus at His Sign Return. 

 

This is another instance where your theory departs from what is known and therefore it collides with your time frame.

 

Revelation 14  Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, 3 and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, 5 and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

 

How does this align with what you presented?

Not really for sure the problem you are getting at, but here are a couple of clarifying comments that I think may relate.

I see the 144,000 of Revelation 14 as being the 144,000 that were saved and sealed at the time of the 6th Seal (Rev. 7:1-8), when they were witnesses of Christ's sign appearance (Matt. 24:30).  According to my understanding, these will remain on the earth for some amount of time, as we see them alluded to later during the period of the 5th Trumpet (Rev. 9:4) and the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 12:11 and 13:7), after which we see them in Heaven (Rev. 14:1-5).

[not an echo]

 

On 7/23/2020 at 10:57 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/21/2020 at 11:03 PM, not an echo said:

A big difference in how we are seeing things is that I see the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period of time.

 

Revelation 10: 7 but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.

 

So despite being told there is no more delay and prophecy will be fulfilled your theory says no, there is still a delay?

Despite being told He is now reigning your theory says no, not yet?

Time for judging the dead is now, but your theory says no, not yet?

This fails the test of scripture in every regard as it is in direct opposition to what we are told.

I hope you will see what I am saying a little differently as you come to understand what I am seeing more fully.  There is indeed going to be no more delay because of what I refer to as the stage reset.  What do I mean?  First of all, look afresh at my chart where I show the timing of the stage reset:

When the stage is fully set for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, there will be no more delay in the fulfilling of it.  This is the reason for the little book of Daniel being seen open in Revelation 10:1-2.

This is reinforced immediately by the first thing we see as chapter 11 opens.  In accord with my previous post, I see verse one as evidence that the "man of sin" or "son of perdition" is in place in God's temple.  Further, we have the first mentioning of the two 3-1/2 year time frames that make up Daniel's 70th Week in verses 2-3.

As far as what is said about the Lord's reigning (Rev. 11:15-17), He is Sovereign and has always reigned.  Satan has only ever been the "god of this world" to the capacity that the Lord has seen fit.  The sounding of the 7th Trumpet heralds the period in which Satan will be fully and finally put in his place.  This is reinforced by what is said of Satan at the beginning of this 7th Trumpet period, as we find in Revelation 12:

 12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!  for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

From the perspective of those in Heaven who are making the statements concerning the Lord's reign (Rev. 11:15-17), they well know that it is by the Lord's reign that this development of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and what it heralds is even taking place.  Satan has not usurped anything concerning God's plan.  There is no dualism.

I can't help but think of a movie I saw when I was a teen where the good guy has a confrontation with this bad guy.  In a little dialogue between the two, it goes kinda like this:

Good guy:  You know what I think I'm going to do?

Bad guy:  What?

Good guy:  You see my right foot here?  I think I'm going to plant it right up side your head.

Bad guy:  Oh yeah?

Good guy:  Yeah.  And you know what else?

Bad guy:  What?

Good guy:  There ain't nothing you're gonna be able to do about it.

Bad guy:  Really?

Then---WHOMP!!! 

Everybody in the theater already knew that it was over with for the bad guy.  This is kinda the perspective I have of the mentality of those praising God at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, only it ain't gonna be no movie, nor real comparison.

Moreover, with time in God's eyes (and arguably from the perspective of those in Heaven as well) being "a thousand years as one day" (II Pet. 3:8), the last 3-1/2 years of Daniel's 70th Week amounts to about five minutes of time.  So, all told, I don't see the conflict.  Rather, I see a conflict if these perspectives are not applied, because the period of the 7th Trumpet quite clearly includes "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18), which makes the link between this period and the Last Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.  Recall that this does not take place until at least a 1000 years after Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon.  Said another way, I see the 7th Trumpet heralding a period that takes in everything (and I mean everything) from its sounding in Revelation 11:15 until 20:15, just before that "Happily Ever After" part for God and all of His children (Rev. 21-22).

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[not an echo]

On 7/26/2020 at 3:13 AM, wingnut- said:

On 7/24/2020 at 11:23 PM, not an echo said:

Yes, that is what I mean.  When the 7th Trumpet sounds, John writes concerning what he heard and saw (Rev. 11:15-17) and then of what happens (the overview).  And what happens?

 

(Content deleted by not an echo)

The Psalm concludes by pointing out the exact thing Paul tells us, sudden destruction.  His wrath is quickly kindled, and once it is He comes with a firm hand, a rod of iron.  This is His reign from beginning to end.  It does not allow for some extended period of time, and it does not allow for your chronology.

For this reply, I have deleted your content between my statement that you are replying to and your statement concerning "The Psalm..."  The Psalm is Psalm 2 for anyone who may wonder.

Concerning your statement that remains, note what I have highlighted:

"The Psalm concludes by pointing out the exact thing Paul tells us, sudden destruction.  His wrath is quickly kindled, and once it is He comes with a firm hand, a rod of iron.  This is His reign from beginning to end.  It does not allow for some extended period of time, and it does not allow for your chronology."

I'm just wanting to see if I am picking up on what you are getting at here in your final analysis.  I am not fully sure what understanding you have previously pressed for, and are now pressing for, concerning Paul's statement "sudden destruction" but it has almost sounded like that you are applying it to the sounding  of the 7th Trumpet, with not much allowance for what follows.  I know that you don't see it as heralding a period, like I do.  But, in the course of our discussions, I keep getting the impression that you don't believe the chapters following the sounding of 7th Trumpet have to do with the 7th Trumpet, until chapter 19, "This section reminds us of the manner in which He reigns, not gentle, but with righteous indignation.  We see this scenario played out in chapter 19 of Revelation."  For now, have I read you right?  If I have misrepresented anything, just hit me over the head with that skillet emoji and I will be quick to apologize!

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/26/2020 at 12:13 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 12:05 AM, not an echo said:

The escape Jesus is talking about in Luke 21:36 is related to "that day" that He speaks of in verse 34,

 

That is not what is stated at all, you are taking the phrase "all these things" and attempting to reduce it to one thing.  He is clearly addressing all the tribulation that He has spoken to them.

 

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

 

It's a very odd position to take, in saying that Jesus would speak these things to a specific group of people, and then try to remove from "all these things" the very specific details of tribulation that they are told they WILL experience personally.  Then you take something that based on your theory, won't occur for several millennia down the road, and try to narrow it down to just that one thing which then completely removes any relevance regarding the specific audience that asked Him the questions in the first place.

So, let's look at my statement and what Jesus said in Luke 21, beginning with the verse I referenced:

 34  And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so THAT DAY come upon you unawares.

 35  For as a snare shall IT come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

 36  What ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy TO ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Again, in accord with my statement, the "escape" Jesus is talking about in verse 36 is related to "that day" that He speaks of in verse 34.  The part concerning "all these things that shall come to pass" is everything that will happen on "that day" that He speaks of beginning in verse 25, and all the days thereafter.  Realize that what Luke records beginning in verse 25 parallels what Matthew records beginning in 24:29, all of which is in reference to the opening of the 6th Seal and the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  The escape that Jesus is talking about is the same escape that Paul speaks of in I Thessalonians 5:3.  Those that escape are the elect, the Church, which will be caught up and gathered by the angels (I Thess. 4:16-18/II Thess. 2:1/Matt. 24:31).  They are the "great multitude" that John sees in Revelation 7:9-17, after the event of the opening of the 6th Seal.

[wingnut-]

On 8/16/2020 at 11:40 PM, not an echo said:

You really threw me here wingnut-.  I'm reminded of how that when we are putting a puzzle together, it is easy to sometimes suppose that when one side of a piece will fit, this may be where the piece goes.  With a puzzle, this is relatively easy to rectify.  With prophecy puzzle pieces, it is a little more difficult.

So, do you believe that what Jesus is speaking of in Matthew 23:38 is the dame thing that He is speaking of in 24:15 or Luke 21:20?

 

Yes.

 

On 8/16/2020 at 11:40 PM, not an echo said:

I am feeling almost like I have entered the Twilight Zone with you wingnut-. 

 

Well, let me try to help you out a little bit with that, I am what you would call a historical premillennialist, so things that you consider to be future are already in the past.  It begins with the understanding of Daniel, because when one goes off track with Daniel then everything that follows is off track as well.  Since we seem to be spinning our wheels and not getting anywhere I am just going to wait until we cross that bridge regarding Daniel's prophecy, because there is no point in repeating ourselves regarding these other things.

 

On 8/16/2020 at 11:40 PM, not an echo said:

First of all, Daniel is a little book compared to Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel.

 

I kinda feel like I am in the twilight zone a bit myself because what you seem to be saying here makes absolutely no sense to me.  Daniel is part of God's word, He already knows it, He doesn't need a book to tell Him what it says, and we already have it ourselves.

[not an echo]

On 7/26/2020 at 4:37 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 12:32 AM, not an echo said:

Jesus says, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven..." (Matt. 24:30).  I'm thinking, now that will be an event!  Wingnut-, don't you think this will be an event??? 

 

No, it is marking the event, which is His coming.  In the reaction quoted from the sixth seal, is anyone quoted as reacting to the sign, or are they saying things like, "Hide us from His face and wrath?"  His face is something specific, and to see someone's face, doesn't it require a certain proximity?  His wrath occurs upon His arrival, everything surrounding this event is in response to His coming.

Whatever the limitations of our concepts or imaginations, Jesus says, "and then shall appear THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Similarly, whatever the limitations of our concepts or imaginations, I believe we both agree that what Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27, and Luke 21:25-27 is fulfilled at the time of the opening of the 6th Seal.

Now, if I am understanding you correctly, you believe that Christ's appearance at the opening of the 6th Seal is the same as that spoken of in Revelation 19:11-21.  I don't mean to misrepresent what you believe, so if this is not so, please let me know.  On my end, I don't see it.  I believe that His appearance at the opening of the 6th Seal is what He refers to as the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  In my concept, based on the evidences of Scripture, I see His sign appearance as something that will happen very quickly and then He will be gone.  Like a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44).  Because the rapture and the resurrection event will happen "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:51-52), I envision those that see "the sign of Son of man in heaven" getting something on the order of a glimpse of Him, after which He will be gone---with what He came for.  It will be a day accompanied by "sudden destruction" of which Paul wrote (I Thess. 5:3).  And there will be a lot of destruction to follow.  Much as it was the day the flood came.  The day that "all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11-12) was a day of sudden destruction.  And it rained the next day and the next.  It was not a good thing for those left outside the ark, not that day nor the days thereafter.  Similarly will it be for those left behind on the day that the 6th Seal is opened---which could be today.