A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation

[not an echo]

On 7/26/2020 at 4:37 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 12:32 AM, not an echo said:

Those left behind will be shaking their heads, rubbing their eyes in bewilderment, and facing a lot of woe.  They will not escape, again, all in perfect harmony with what Paul said in I Thessalonians 5:1-4.

 

Only when the term sudden destruction is applied to the scenario, again this negates a 7 year period of time that follows.  7 years is not sudden. The phrase sudden destruction appears in verse 3, and your scenario does not meet the requirements of sudden destruction.  What it appears is happening based on your reference to how the gathering occurs quickly, is that you are applying sudden destruction to sudden escape.

I see the "sudden destruction" as being on the order of a sudden onset, if you will, the sudden having to do more with the surprise element of what will begin to take place.  Like with the flood, everyone was going about their normal day to day, then sudden destruction came.  And came.  And came...

[douggg]

42 minutes ago, not an echo said:

I see the "sudden destruction" as being on the order of a sudden onset, if you will, the sudden having to do more with the surprise element of what will begin to take place.  Like with the flood, everyone was going about their normal day to day, then sudden destruction came.  And came.  And came...

 

The rapture is not what triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.    But the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to be God.     And no-one knows what day in the 7 years that will be.

 

The rapture only has to happen before then.      Not that the rapture triggers the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

[not an echo]

On 7/26/2020 at 6:18 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 1:28 PM, not an echo said:

Yes, they are separated in Scripture, but sometimes not so apparent.  Kind of like a binary star, it looks like a single, till you home in closer, then it is discovered that it is two.  For clarification, I feel that saying Christ's return will be in two phases or two parts is generally sufficient, but I never talk very long about it without reinforcing that His return involves His Sign Return for the rapture of the Church (the sign is for the Israelites), and later, His Second Coming for the Battle of Armageddon, after which He will reign upon the earth for 1000 years.  The two parts or phases of His return are right before our very eyes in The Revelation---His Sign Return (the 1st phase of His return) with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:15-17, and later, His Second Coming (the 2nd phase of His return) in Revelation 19:11-21.

 

My friend, I really hope you don't take this other than as intended, but it needs to be said.  The three gospel accounts, I know them all by heart and exactly what they say, and not one of them gives any indication of a separate event, all three reference His coming.  The same is true of all scriptural accounts, the term His coming is used over and over again, and in each instance it is speaking to the same thing. 

I must acknowledge that there is a sense in which I can understand what you are saying.  But, there is more, and something that is a key to understanding so much in The Olivet Discourse and The Revelation.  Jesus' disciples asked Him, "and what shall be the sign of Thy coming?" (Matt. 24:3).  The only place we find the definite article (the) with the singular word (sign) is in Matthew 24:30, where Jesus says explicitly, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  This was Jesus' answer to them, not mine.  Further, from this point throughout the rest of the chapter, everything Jesus says relates explicitly to this sign event.  Everything.  As I see it, what we are left with now is to try to understand more about His sign appearance and when it will happen relative to other things.

The Revelation shows the event that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 as occurring with the opening of the 6th Seal in chapter 6.  Christ's Second Advent does not occur with the opening of the 6th Seal, as the 7th Seal will not have even been opened yet.  Rather, Christ's Second Advent happens in connection with the period of the 7th Trumpet, much later, in chapter 19.

Further, Jesus speaks of His Second Advent as occurring in connection with things that He points out are spoken of in Daniel (Matt. 24:15ff with vss. 23-28), which evidences point to His Second Advent as closing out Daniel's 70th Week.  These evidences are also shown in The Revelation in connection with what happens after John sees the "little book open" in Revelation 10:2, which is quite apparently the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  To me, the math on this little book being Daniel is as simple as 2+2 = 4.  With all that begins to happen at this point in The Revelation, I can't imagine what further evidences one could want.

Further, Paul speaks about the rapture, or our being "changed" (I Cor. 15:51-52), then "caught up" (I Thess. 4:17), as happening before the Day of the Lord, all of which harmonizes with what we find concerning the 6th Seal (I Thess. 4:13-5:3ff with Rev. 6:17 and 7:9-17) and Christ's sign appearance.

Further, Paul speaks explicitly about the gathering of the Church in II Thessalonians 2:1, the same gathering Jesus speaks of in connection with His sign appearance.  And, in harmony with what Paul says, this will happen well before Christ's Second Advent, which is what he is speaking of when he says "the Day of Christ" (II Thess. 2:2/KJV).  You have indicated elsewhere that it doesn't matter much about the discrepancy in some manuscripts (from which our translations come) concerning Kurios or Christos, but I beg to differ.  When I (and most) think of "the Day of the Lord" (Kurios) we think of God's judgment.  When I (and many) think of "the Day of Christ" (Christos) we think of Christ's Second Advent.  This understanding also fits The Revelation, for well before Christ's Second Advent, we see accounts of the activity of the Beast, the man of sin, the son of perdition, or the Antichrist (beginning in Rev. 11).  Moreover, it is at Christ's Second Advent that the Beast will be destroyed by "the brightness of His coming" (II Thess. 2:8) and cast into "the lake of fire" (Rev. 19:20).  This does not happen in connection with the 6th Seal, as again, the 7th Seal will not have even been opened yet.

On 7/26/2020 at 6:18 PM, wingnut- said:

What you are doing here, is creating an event that is not scriptural, and you have even assigned it a title, His Sign Return.  The test of scripture in regards to the validity of this is simple, show me the scripture that uses that term, His Sign Return, or Sign Return, even a Sign Return I would accept.  Minus any evidence or appearance of this found in scripture, it is not scriptural, it is something you are attempting to force into scripture.

I don't know if you have picked up on this yet, but in my latest replies I have began to use Jesus' exact words more and more.  Jesus said, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  Understand that the only reason that I have ever used the phrases His Sign Return or His Sign Appearance (both of which I still feel are fine) is because these more concisely capture what Jesus is saying.  I am not attempting to force anything into Scripture at all.  Rather, wingnut-, it seems to me that you are bordering on trying to force something out of Scripture.  I know, I know, you are not trying to do that at all, and what I just said made you cringe a little---like you have sometimes made me cringe!   Annnyway, I do hope you will look at this further.  Again, it is Jesus, not me, that said, "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven."  I'm fine saying it just like Jesus did.  Are you?

On 7/26/2020 at 6:18 PM, wingnut- said:

Now here is the thing, according to you, this Sign Return is for the Israelites, so producing scripture to support such an event should be extremely easy to do considering the massive amounts of Old Testament prophecies that discuss the Israelites and what is going on with them at this time.  So, show me the scripture where Jesus appears and the Israelites see Him, and then He gathers up the church and leaves them standing there with no acknowledgement at all.

Do you not see Christ's "acknowledgement" of them wingnut-?  They are going to be eternally saved!  They see the Lamb with the opening of the 6th Seal, at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  whereupon they are sealed (Matt. 24:30 with Rev. 7:4), and then we see them with the Lamb in Heaven in Revelation 14:1-5.

These Israelites could have been saved before this time, but they were not.  Like Paul, he could have gotten saved before he encountered Christ on the road to Damascus, but he didn't.  And after he received Jesus, what was he told?  Concerning Paul, the Lord told Ananias (Acts 9:13-16) that He was going to shew Paul "how great things he must suffer for My name's sake" (vs. 9).  It is not a travesty that the 144,000 will experience great tribulation or martyrdom during the time of the Day of the Lord and Daniel's 70th Week, which they will (e.g., Rev. 12:11 and 13:7).  Paul experienced this, as multitudes of Christians have throughout the era of the Church, even to this very day.  And, it would be no travesty (IMHO) if the Church did indeed go through the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  The only thing is, Scripture teaches otherwise.

On 7/26/2020 at 6:18 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 1:28 PM, not an echo said:

What is right before our eyes in The Revelation is consistently reinforced by what Jesus says in Matthew 24:26-28 (His Second Coming), Matthew 24:29-51 (His Sign Return/consistent with Mark and Luke's parallel accounts), what Paul says in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 coupled with 5:1-11, what he says in II Thessalonians 2:1-2 (I understand the "day of Christ" as being the day of His Second Coming), and also Joel's prophecy, as the Church era connection is made by Peter (Acts 2:16-21).

 

Unless you can produce scripture that refers to this Sign Return, or scripture that speaks to the event of this and what you are assigning to it, then it continues to lack credibility.  The phrase certainly does not appear in any of the scripture mentioned above, nor does any of that scripture address the Israelites being left in the lurch as you have described.

I have sometimes felt that even if I had always used Jesus' exact words, "and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  you would have been more given to finding a way to counter rather than consider.  I am trying to attribute this to you just not being able to see where I am coming from yet.  Notwithstanding, it is an increasingly curious thing to me that so much is made out of so little, and so little is made out of so much.

On 7/26/2020 at 6:18 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 1:28 PM, not an echo said:

Have you ever thought about Joel's prophecy, the Day of Pentecost, the 6th Seal, the extent of the Church era, and the other related convergences with what Jesus says in Matthew 24:29-31? 

 

When you say Joel's prophecy that is quite a bit of material, much of which has nothing to do with these things.  Do you mean in chapter 2 where Joel talks about the locust army?  That event is historical, and was fulfilled when a literal army of locusts descended on Israel.  You mention Pentecost, so are you referring to what Peter said was fulfilled there?  Obviously if it was fulfilled at that time, it is also historical.

Or are you questioning what was fulfilled according to Peter?  Are you speaking to Joel's prophecy regarding the former rain and the latter rain?

I'm thinking that I made this clear, but perhaps not.  Rather than go back to see, I am talking about the prophecy of Joel's that Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  We know that the celestial phenomena were not fulfilled at that time.  These are fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Because the rapture happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, the era of the Church ends at this time.  Because the era of the Church started on the Day of Pentecost and ends on the day that the 6th Seal is opened, Joel's prophecy marks both the beginning and the ending of the era of the Church---to the very day.  A very significant prophecy.  How is it that scholarship has so missed this gem?  As I see things, it is in a category like unto the Hope Diamond.

Got to go...

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/26/2020 at 9:13 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 1:52 PM, not an echo said:

I interpret the event of Matthew 24:29-31 as encompassing a very short amount of time, as reflected by our transformation and subsequent gathering happening in "a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" (I Cor. 15:51-52).

 

Well the interesting thing here, is the very chapter you have pointed to.  What is the context of I Corinthians 15 about?  The entire body of the chapter is in regards to what topic?  Resurrection.

The very passage you point to, what does it speak of?

 

I Corinthians 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

 

Where in Revelation does John tell us this takes place?

 

Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

 

Now, hopefully your response won't go the route so many seem to take now out of desperation and attempt to argue that first doesn't actually mean first, because the argument is so ridiculous I won't even entertain it.  Instead, I hope you and anyone else reading will consider the last part that I highlighted.  Why does the second death have no power over those who are part of the first resurrection?

Deductive reasoning should lead one to understand, that once a person has been translated from the perishable into the imperishable, they cannot be extinguished.  Imperishable by its very definition correlates to everlasting.  This is precisely what occurs as we are gathered, in the twinkling of an eye, we are raised imperishable.  Another part of this passage related to timing that absolutely does not align with your theory, is verse 4.  How can those who were beheaded for Jesus's testimony, and not worshiped the beast or taken his mark be included in the first resurrection when according to you none of this has taken place?

This is what I want you to consider I am referencing when I have pointed out that what dispensationalism has done, is exclude the natural branches, being the Israelites, from being called "Blessed and Holy".  Anyone you leave out of the first resurrection, you are removing from the body, as well as the very promises that were specifically made to the Jewish people in regards to their inheritance, which is the same as ours.

You have to account for I Corinthians 15:50, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and ask yourself if it seems right that the Jewish people cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Hello again wingnut- (and all),

Hope all is well with all in the face of the pandemic.  In my neck of the woods it is having an increasing impact and also seriously affecting the superalloy industry in which I am employed, as we are entirely dependent upon the aircraft industry.

To your above response wingnut-, it seems that you are understanding that it is here, in Revelation 20:5 that the resurrection actually happens.  I'm not sure how you reconcile this with the time of the 7th Trumpet sounding and all that happens after that, or with Christ's coming in chapter 19 where we see the armies with Christ at His Second Advent.  I believe those with Christ upon the white horses (19:14) are the first "they" spoken of in Revelation 20:4, "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them..."  In other words, the antecedent to this first "they" goes back to Revelation 19:14.  Just trace it back.  As a quick note, I also see the angels involved at both the time of Christ's Sign Appearance and His Second Advent, but that's another subject.

Concerning the phrase, "first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5-6), I understand this to be an all encompassing reference to all the saved of all the ages, whether resurrected the weekend of Christ's passion, those changed at the time of the rapture, the two witnesses, or those martyred during Daniel's 70th Week.  Said another way, I see the first resurrection as designating the resurrection of the just, as opposed to the resurrection of the unjust.  As I presently understand the scriptures, none that have ever been saved will be excluded from being "a part" of the first resurrection, none from Adam through the last person saved going into the time of Christ's Millennial Reign.  No saved excluded, not one.  I believe we will be in close, close fellowship with all the saved of all the ages upon this earth for a 1000 years---ruling and reigning with Christ!

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/27/2020 at 12:44 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:34 PM, not an echo said:

In my thinking, what Paul says in II Thessalonians 2:1 is easy to deduce as being the time of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven"

 

II Thessalonians 2  Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

 

The second Coming is its own event, considering you see them as two separate events, why would you try to change this into your alternate event when it is already identified?  If it were your alternate event, wouldn't Paul have wrote, Now concerning the Sign Return of our Lord Jesus Christ?

To me, what Paul wrote is plenty for us to do the math.  For openers, He is speaking about the occasion of our being "gathered together unto Him" (II Thess. 2:1).  When does this happen?  At the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30-31), which happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, at which time we see the gathered multitude (Rev. 7:9-17).  It is upon the basis of our being gathered, or raptured, that he is telling the Thessalonians to "be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled" (II Thess. 2:2).

It looks like to me that they had been deceived (at least for a time) into thinking that "the Day of Christ" (Christ's Second Advent) was possibly "at hand."  What were they supposed to believe or think, and who were they supposed to believe?  So, Paul wrote to them this letter to further clarify, and we have what he wrote both here and in his other letter to compare with the rest of Scripture.  And, as we find in The Revelation, the sequence of what Paul writes about squares with what we find there.  For example, the gathering happens with the opening of the 6th Seal (Matt. 24:29-31;  I Thess. 4:13-5:3;  II Thess. 2:1; and Rev. 6:12-7:17), the "man of sin" is then revealed (II Thess. 2:3-4;  Rev. 11:1ff), and at Christ's Second Advent, he will be destroyed (II Thess. 2:8;  Rev. 19:11-21).

On 7/27/2020 at 12:44 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:34 PM, not an echo said:

According to the KJV, the day that Paul is here talking about is "the Day of Christ (Christos)" (II Thess. 2:2/KJV), not "the Day of the Lord (Kurios)" as modern versions have it.  So, we have more than a version concern, we have a manuscript discrepancy.  Is there really even a concern here?

 

I had said at the beginning of the discussion I wasn't going to engage in any debate regarding the reliability of scripture in regards to translations, but in this instance I am willing to make an exception because this is a valid question with honorable motives.

The first thing we have to ask ourselves is, did the translators have deception on their mind when this slight alteration was made, and does it have any significance as far as impact on the message?   The first thing that would be required is a second witness.  Is there another example in scripture, where a different writer makes a distinction to set apart a specific "Day of Christ"?  There are none to speak of, so in absence of a second witness, the idea of a distinction doesn't ring true.

So what purpose would the translators have for making the alteration, since changing it doesn't seem to have any necessity?  What they changed it to reveals the answer.

 

If we go back to the very start of His first advent and examine the Old Testament prophecies regarding the Messiah, what we find is that the prophets used the terminology Day of the Lord in conjunction with what we know as the Second Coming.  Of course there are also prophecies regarding His first advent, where the Messiah is spoken of as the suffering servant which depict His death and resurrection as being necessary, and also reveal that the Israelites would reject Him.  The reason they rejected Him is because they failed to understand or connect the suffering servant to the Messiah, their expectations for the Messiah were based on all the prophecies regarding the Day of the Lord.

When Jesus came, they expected Him to wipe out the Romans and restore Israel's sovereign status under His rulership.  Christ, or Christos in the Greek, means Messiah.  So the day of Christ = day of the Messiah, which is the equivalent of all the Messianic prophecies referring to the Day of the Lord.  Like for example, this one.

 

Zechariah 14  Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

 

Zechariah 14:6 On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. 7 And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.

8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea and half of them to the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter.

9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

 

This of course but one example, I could post so many more but don't find it necessary.  It should be fairly clear there is no great conspiracy about a single change in translations that does not alter the meaning or point us to anything other than the same exact day, a unique day, which was known as the Day of the Lord from long before Christ walked the earth.  No matter what name it is called by, every single instance points to the only one who is Coming, Christ.

Concerning your reply as a whole, I am not suggesting that there was "deception on their mind" or a "great conspiracy."  The translators were working with manuscript copies, and it appears to me that when the translators saw the word Christos, they translated correctly as Christ.  When they saw the word Kurios, they translated it correctly as Lord.  And, when they were comparing manuscripts that differed, they had to make a decision concerning which to go with and whether to add a note.

One thing when it comes to manuscript copies, nobody gets to make an "alteration."  Nobody gets to change Holy Writ.  Now, they may have, but it's not like they have a legit right or any kind of liberty to do this.  When a manuscript or a fragment or a copy of any such is so obscure that it cannot be discerned with certainty what was written, one has to do the best that can be done, and this has often been the case.  Maybe with this portion of Scripture they were only able to discern the "os" of what might have been Kurios or Christos.  I don't know.  But, an acknowledgement needs to be made that there is a discrepancy in the manuscript copies extant.  And does it matter?  Of course it does.  I have spoke some to this, but just let me say again, when I and most read "the Day of the Lord" we think of God's judgment.  But, when I and many read "the Day of Christ" we think of Christ's Second Advent.

What I have written is a solid position, and when factored into the rest of the body of Scripture, everyone of us is going to find that there is nothing we can do to get around it but to be in denial about it or to factor it into our interpretations.  It is not going to go away.  All I have done is factored it into my interpretations.

Finally, concerning your last paragraph and sentence, if in your understanding of what Paul was saying in II Thessalonians 2:2 you see this as concerning "the Day of Christ" or Christ's Second Advent, then we know that this is not going to come "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3), as we see in The Revelation.  But further, this will not happen until the Church is gathered or caught up by the angels at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven,"  as we also see in The Revelation (Rev. 6:12-17;  I Thess. 4:13-5:3;  II Thess. 2:1;  and Matt. 24:29-31).

On 7/27/2020 at 12:44 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:34 PM, not an echo said:

Consider:  Paul had talked to the Thessalonians about "the Day of the Lord (Kurios),"  and of that day he told them, "For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord (Kurios) so cometh as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2).  Would it be going to far to suggest that he did not really have to explain to them further about the Day of Kurios?  But, it appears that they were a little fuzzy concerning the Day of Christos.  As it shapes up to me, Paul is now speaking to them about Christ's Second Coming, which will not come "as a thief in the night."  Why???  Because "THAT DAY shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3). 

 

You're trying to make a conspiracy about an alteration that was done for clarity, and that ultimately is leading you to all the wrong conclusions.

Again, no one can go and start altering what is supposed to be inspired Scripture for clarity.  Interpretations for clarity is a noble task.  But, when it comes to the manuscript evidence that we have from which to interpret, that don't get to be altered.  Once more, I'm not saying that there was a conspiracy.  I've only said that we have to be careful about what we allow to be done or what we accept.  And we do.

On 7/27/2020 at 12:44 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:34 PM, not an echo said:

Consider:  Paul had talked to the Thessalonians about "the Day of the Lord (Kurios),"  and of that day he told them, "For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord (Kurios) so cometh as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2).  Would it be going to far to suggest that he did not really have to explain to them further about the Day of Kurios?  But, it appears that they were a little fuzzy concerning the Day of Christos.  As it shapes up to me, Paul is now speaking to them about Christ's Second Coming, which will not come "as a thief in the night."  Why???  Because "THAT DAY shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3). 

 

You're trying to make a conspiracy about an alteration that was done for clarity, and that ultimately is leading you to all the wrong conclusions.  First, start with the fact the falling away occurred in the 1st century, per Luke, which you still have not reconciled to your timeline.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Luke opens with this information, pay particular attention to the last sentence please, terrors and great signs from heaven.  Where would you say that falls on the timeline?  Does it sound anything like what takes place in Revelation that we have been discussing? 

Watch what immediately follows, and please apply the verbal cues to timing of events.

 

Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

These things happened to His disciples, the very men He was speaking to, and according to His timeline it occurred prior to even the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.  There is no getting around this fact, it is not even disputable, so it is time to adjust your chronology of the accounts in Matthew and Mark in accordance with the facts established from Luke.  The events in verses 12-19 come before those in verses 10 and 11.

Concerning your last paragraph statement, and more especially the last sentence, though I would make a little adjustment, I see it similarly, as long as it is understood that what began back in the first century has continued to take place until our day, and will continue until the time of which Luke records, "and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Lk. 21:11b).  Interestingly, what he here records links what I refer to as the first section of Jesus' discourse with the intersecting event of His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:30).  Luke's record of that begins in Luke 21:25 (note the vs. 11b/vs. 25 link) and continues to the end of the chapter.  What you have highlighted "But before all this" merely aligns Luke's account with Matthew and Mark's---with the added help of the link.

On 7/27/2020 at 12:44 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:34 PM, not an echo said:

As it shapes up to me, Paul is now speaking to them about Christ's Second Coming, which will not come "as a thief in the night."  Why??? 

 

Issue number two, Paul already tells us why, and you are attempting to give us a completely different reason than Paul actually says.

 

I Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. 6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

 

The question you should be asking yourself is, why in verse 4 does Paul say to "The Church", the day of the Lord won't come like a thief because you are not in darkness?  If there was even a shred of validity to the pre-trib theory, what Paul would have said "But you won't be here, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief."  Can you explain why Paul didn't?

To help keep us on track, what I said above relates to what Paul said concerning "the Day of Christ" (II Thess. 2:2/KJV) or Christ's Second Coming, which will not come "as a thief in the night" as His return for the rapture will.

My answer to your question is that "the Day of the Lord" (I Thess. 5:2), or the Day of God's judgment upon the world, begins on the very same day as Christ's return for the rapture of the Church.  Understand that the day that Christ makes His sign appearance will be the day of the opening of the 6th Seal, and before this day is done, He will also open the 7th Seal, meaning the Day of the Lord, or "the great day of His wrath" (Rev. 6:17) has come indeed.  As I have shared in the OP of one of my other threads, a very fitting title for The Seven Sealed Book would be THE DAY OF THE LORD, for that is what the contents of this book is all about---every single page (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249265-a-title-suggestion-for-the-seven-sealed-book/).

The Church will be here until the very day that the period of the Day of the Lord begins.  We can't let ourselves forget about the verse and chapter divisions not being a part of Paul's original letter.  Then it is easier to keep in one's realization that where chapter 4 ends, chapter 5 begins---as a continuation of thought.

Just a little sidebar that connects with what I mentioned above about the contents of The Seven Sealed Book:  All of the cover seals (if a book) or roll seals (if a scroll) concern the era of the Church---every single seal.  Said another way, everything on the cover concerns the era of the Church.  Everything in the contents concerns the Day of the Lord.  The same can be said concerning what is on the outside and what is on the inside respectively.  This really deserves your close attention.  It is going to be found that it will hold.

[wingnut-]

On 8/29/2020 at 1:51 AM, not an echo said:

Again, no one can go and start altering what is supposed to be inspired Scripture for clarity.  Interpretations for clarity is a noble task.  But, when it comes to the manuscript evidence that we have from which to interpret, that don't get to be altered.  Once more, I'm not saying that there was a conspiracy.  I've only said that we have to be careful about what we allow to be done or what we accept.  And we do.

 

Unfortunately you are not being consistent or are unaware of the numerous errors in translation found within the KJV version.  You speak in regards to the Greek, so you should consider the Greek are the earliest manuscripts available to us, and then you should probably account for all of the translation blunders within the KJV where they deliberately deviate from the proper translation.  The KJV has more translation errors than any of the modern day versions, despite being redone more times than any other version in existence.  I'm not going to bore everyone with all of them, but one of the most obvious that comes to mind is in regards to the love chapter in Corinthians, in which the KJV chooses to translate agape as charity.  This is the only place in which the KJV does so, every other place it is translated properly as love, but the KJV has never corrected this error and continues to mis-translate it to this day.  This is one of thousands of such examples that demonstrate the KJV is not as reliable as you seem to think it is, and in no way is the standard by which every other translation should be measured.

The term Paul used is a unique phrase, and should not be used to establish a singular event because there is no second witness to it, so to do so is not consistent with the test of scripture.

[wingnut-]

On 8/24/2020 at 8:15 PM, not an echo said:

I'm thinking that I made this clear, but perhaps not.  Rather than go back to see, I am talking about the prophecy of Joel's that Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  We know that the celestial phenomena were not fulfilled at that time.  These are fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Because the rapture happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, the era of the Church ends at this time.  Because the era of the Church started on the Day of Pentecost and ends on the day that the 6th Seal is opened, Joel's prophecy marks both the beginning and the ending of the era of the Church---to the very day.  A very significant prophecy.  How is it that scholarship has so missed this gem?  As I see things, it is in a category like unto the Hope Diamond.

 

Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    and your young men shall see visions,
    and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
    in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood,
    before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

 

Well my friend, you have a serious problem with this considering Peter said it was fulfilled and specifically quoted what you claim to be yet future.  Either you believe Peter wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or you do not, that is what people will have to decide for themselves.  I already know where I stand on it, and as I stated previously this all goes back to understanding Daniel properly which you have still not addressed.

[not an echo]

On 8/30/2020 at 1:23 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/29/2020 at 12:51 AM, not an echo said:

Again, no one can go and start altering what is supposed to be inspired Scripture for clarity.  Interpretations for clarity is a noble task.  But, when it comes to the manuscript evidence that we have from which to interpret, that don't get to be altered.  Once more, I'm not saying that there was a conspiracy.  I've only said that we have to be careful about what we allow to be done or what we accept.  And we do.

 

Unfortunately you are not being consistent or are unaware of the numerous errors in translation found within the KJV version.  You speak in regards to the Greek, so you should consider the Greek are the earliest manuscripts available to us, and then you should probably account for all of the translation blunders within the KJV where they deliberately deviate from the proper translation.  The KJV has more translation errors than any of the modern day versions, despite being redone more times than any other version in existence.  I'm not going to bore everyone with all of them, but one of the most obvious that comes to mind is in regards to the love chapter in Corinthians, in which the KJV chooses to translate agape as charity.  This is the only place in which the KJV does so, every other place it is translated properly as love, but the KJV has never corrected this error and continues to mis-translate it to this day.  This is one of thousands of such examples that demonstrate the KJV is not as reliable as you seem to think it is, and in no way is the standard by which every other translation should be measured.

Hello again wingnut-,

I had thought that I would be able to make some further installments yesterday, but I'm sure you know how things can turn out sometimes.

Anyway, when I set down today to try to continue, I noticed your post above.  I'm surprised that you would turn on the KJV and hate on it as you are now doing, seeing that you said the following about it earlier in this same thread.  I had to look for it, but I knew it was there.  Here it is, what you said about the KJV then:  

"I love my KJV, there is something very comforting in the poetry of the language to me, perhaps nostalgia.  However, for ease of reading and assurance that anyone who reads my posts understands, I use the ESV translation here.  I prefer this translation above all others because it uses the most literal translation of the Greek and Hebrew."

You've got me wondering now how my grandfather, and great grandfather, and his father, and all the others of yesteryear(s) ever made it with a supposed Holy Bible that was so chocked full of errors.  And your major on the blunder of the KJV for its use of charity instead of love is indeed enlightening.  Maybe that is why the love of so many has waxed cold in our day.  Glad to be able to now put that two and two together.  God help us if the charity of many ever waxes cold. 

I just looked up the word charity in my Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.  The first definition it gives is, "benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity."  Now I'm really confused...

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/30/2020 at 3:19 PM, wingnut- said:

On 8/24/2020 at 7:15 PM, not an echo said:

I'm thinking that I made this clear, but perhaps not.  Rather than go back to see, I am talking about the prophecy of Joel's that Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  We know that the celestial phenomena were not fulfilled at that time.  These are fulfilled with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Because the rapture happens with the opening of the 6th Seal, the era of the Church ends at this time.  Because the era of the Church started on the Day of Pentecost and ends on the day that the 6th Seal is opened, Joel's prophecy marks both the beginning and the ending of the era of the Church---to the very day.  A very significant prophecy.  How is it that scholarship has so missed this gem?  As I see things, it is in a category like unto the Hope Diamond.

 

Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

17 “‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    and your young men shall see visions,
    and your old men shall dream dreams;
18 even on my male servants and female servants
    in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
20 the sun shall be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood,
    before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

 

Well my friend, you have a serious problem with this considering Peter said it was fulfilled and specifically quoted what you claim to be yet future.  Either you believe Peter wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or you do not, that is what people will have to decide for themselves.  I already know where I stand on it, and as I stated previously this all goes back to understanding Daniel properly which you have still not addressed.

So, you are believing that the celestial event of which Joel prophesied and Peter is quoting has been fulfilled?

Now, concerning Daniel's prophecy, which I "have still not addressed,"  as I have surveyed ahead, it looks like I'm just a few more installments from getting to it.  For now, I'm going to focus on picking up where I had left off early Saturday morning at 12:51 AM.  Let's see, where was I...

Well, first, my son just told me that the wife has dinner ready.  

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 7/27/2020 at 2:26 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:47 PM, not an echo said:

I have read what you here have to say about the three woes, however, I haven't really got my head wrapped around what all you are getting at.  But, I'm certainly going to consider further.

 

I'm glad you are taking time to consider it, because at the end of the day, to understand what is to take place it is imperative that our timeline is established by known events that we can positively identify within scripture.  The three woes are some of these examples, tied to known events, and also identified apart from those events specifically so we can establish a sequence within the Revelation.  The things described following the 7th trumpet are also known events that serve in the same manner, which is why these two areas are so important.  The resurrection, which is the equivalent of the gathering is another example.

To me, there is a clear and logical timeline in The Revelation that far, far surpasses anything that I have seen built off a focus on the three woes.  The "known events" are laid out such:

The opening of the 1st Seal and what results from that.  The opening of the 2nd Seal and what results from that.  The opening of the 3rd Seal and what results from that.  The opening of the 4th Seal and what results from that.  The opening of the 5th Seal and what results from that.  The opening of the 6th Seal and what results from that.  And, the opening of the 7th Seal and what results from that.

Then...

The sounding of the 1st Trumpet and what results from that.  The sounding of the 2nd Trumpet and what results from that.  The sounding of the 3rd Trumpet and what results from that.  The sounding of the 4th Trumpet and what results from that.  The sounding of the 5th Trumpet and what results from that.  The sounding of the 6th Trumpet and what results from that.  And, the sounding of the 7th Trumpet and what results from that.

From the opening of the 1st Seal, yea, even from the opening verse of the book of The Revelation, everything progresses froward without fail, no back and forth, no overlap, no breaking of the pattern until the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.

With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, there is a brief overview of what results from that, which holds this key statement, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged" (Rev. 11:18).  This links the period of the 7th Trumpet through to the time of the Last Judgment, shown to take place in Revelation 20:11-15.  From the time of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet until the time of the Last Judgment, the structure of The Revelation from chapter 11-20 continues chronologically forward, as before, with this difference:  There is overlapping information, and/or a repeating of information for clarification all along the way---without fail.  I have this very simply illustrated in my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).

As I see it, in a nutshell, with every other view that I have seen, too many efforts are made to arrange things based upon one side of a puzzle piece fitting with one side of another puzzle piece, which ends up not fitting in with the other pieces---which ultimately results in a conglomeration, IMHO.

On 7/27/2020 at 2:26 PM, wingnut- said:

On 7/25/2020 at 10:47 PM, not an echo said:

In the meantime, and related to the chronology issue, I am curious concerning the 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe, and your view of the rapture/gathering in connection with this trumpet.  Do you see the rapture/gathering happening concurrent with the trumpet sound?

 

I suspect that may be the case, based on the timing of events, but I am not dogmatic about it because no one can say definitively either way since it is not said or directly linked to any of the statements made at the 7th trumpet.  One of the issues regarding the timing of the gathering is that from the information in Revelation, we can conclude based on all of scripture that the first resurrection relates to it, and also one other area that include statements that point to it as well.  The example I have in mind would be linked to the events resulting from the second woe, 6th trumpet.

 

Revelation 11:12 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them.

 

This one, involving the two witnesses, goes hand in hand with everything we know about the gathering.  They are called up to heaven by a heavenly voice, in a cloud.  Since John only points to one such resurrection, the logical deduction is that these two witnesses are part of that same resurrection, and why wouldn't two very important servants of God be called blessed and holy as those in the first resurrection are called.

Now what immediately follows the above verse is that in the same hour there is a massive earthquake, and then it tells us the second woe is done and the third comes quickly.  The third being the 7th trumpet.  Since the second woe is concluding, it is safe to say that it is not the 6th trumpet call that is the gathering because that happens prior to this and these events are a result of it.  But since it says the third woe comes quickly, that would seem to indicate the 7th trumpet still hasn't sounded.  It could be that the 7th trumpet does sound, and that statement is just associating the closeness of the two trumpets, or it could be that the trump of God is distinct and separate from these trumpets and just happens to occur around the same time frame with no specific mention in Revelation.

As I've stated before the final events I see happening in rapid succession, right on top of each other, and I have also made reference to the 6's and 7's.  By that I mean the seal, trumpet, and bowl of each of those numbers, and I also believe they come in that order, seal first, trumpet second, bowl third.  But I also see these overlapping each other in many instances, so for example the 6th bowl events can be going on at the time the 7th seal or anything following it are beginning.  Sudden destruction, wrath kindled quickly.

If you look closely at these 6 events, you will see a correlation between the exact same things or results of those things happening within them.  Another way to say it is this, once the 6th seal is open, the 7th seal can be opened, the 6th trumpet or 6th bowl events do not have to be over, they can still be in progress. The same is true of the trumpets and bowls, they must progress in numerical order, but once the 6th has been initiated, the 7th can follow at any time.  I hope that makes sense to you in regards to what I mean by overlapping.

What I said in my previous reply is reinforced (to me) by what you say in this reply.  As I read what you are saying, I just see a conglomeration.  I'm sure that you are seeing something more, but what I am seeing amounts to a jumble.

Just a few words on your opening sentence, which surprised me.  With so many that are post-trib in their rapture view seeing the 7th Trumpet as being the Trump of God, how can one who holds a similar position not see the rapture/gathering as happening concurrent with its sounding?  Do you not see Scripture as being clear on this?  In Matthew 24 Jesus said,

 31  And He shall send His angels WITH a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In I Corinthians 15, Paul said,

 51  Behold, I shew you a mystery;  We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT the last trump:  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

In I Thessalonians 4, Paul said further,

 16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, AND WITH the Trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

About midway into your post you say,

"Now what immediately follows the above verse is that in the same hour there is a massive earthquake, and then it tells us the second woe is done and the third comes quickly.  The third being the 7th trumpet.  Since the second woe is concluding, it is safe to say that it is not the 6th trumpet call that is the gathering because that happens prior to this and these events are a result of it.  But since it says the third woe comes quickly, that would seem to indicate the 7th trumpet still hasn't sounded.  It could be that the 7th trumpet does sound, and that statement is just associating the closeness of the two trumpets, or it could be that the trump of God is distinct and separate from these trumpets and just happens to occur around the same time frame with no specific mention in Revelation."

I don't see this reconciling with the common post-trib view, but I had this thought:  Perhaps you, similar to me, have A TOTALLY DIFFERENT POST-TRIB RAPTURE VIEW!  Only thing is, I still haven't seen a very full layout of it, a bird's eye view of it, or a chart of it.  Also, I almost put, A TOTALLY DIFFERENT POST-DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK RAPTURE VIEW, but I remembered that you believe that Daniel's 70th Week has already been fulfilled---if I'm understanding you correctly.  As you have indicated an interest in seeing what I have to say further about Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy, I will be focusing on it more when it is time for that installment, which is drawing close.

Concerning your last sentence, "I hope that makes sense to you in regards to what I mean by overlapping,"  yes and no.  To kind of echo (oops) what I said earlier, it's like the error of thinking that because one side of a puzzle piece fits with the side of another puzzle piece, that means the two pieces must go together.  Sometimes, sometimes not.  Everything has to interlock with everything else.  And, we all know that when it comes to puzzles, like a scenery puzzle, them blue sky pieces can be tough.  Hey wingnut-, I bet we can agree on this---there's some easier pieces to place and some harder pieces to place, and some are really, really tough.  But isn't it so rewarding!  I must say, a lot more rewarding that putting a cardboard puzzle together---which I haven't done in a few decades.

Edited January 31, 2023 by not an echo
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