Christianity Is A Faith And Not An Intellectual Philosophical System Based Upon Rationalism And Empiricism.

[JAG**]

Start quote.
"Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
reweighs arguments.

`The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .(What is the
basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is) the faith-producing work
of the Holy Spirit . . .

Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

Then William Lane Craig says . . .

I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
witness of God's Holy Spirit."
End quote

Source:
Reasonable Faith
by William Lane Craig
pages 35, 39, 43

Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
Christendom's top Christian apologists.

____________


JAG Writes:
Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
would no longer be true.

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

So?

So . . .

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.


____________



Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting:

(1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to
be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true
because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and
evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot
legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable
Faith, page 51

(2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use
apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith,
page 57


_______________



Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web

Again . . .
I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support
the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences
must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which
are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices,
and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable
to many people.



________


I post all the above as "food for thought" --- each reader can
draw his own conclusions regarding how much importance
he puts upon rational argumentation to support Christianity.

For those inclined to rational argumentation:
Here are Peter Kreeft's 20 Arguments for The Existence Of God.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-mo...-existence.htm

 

 

`

 

QuoteReply

Report

[Who me]

Yet Luke searched and checked what he wrote so that those who read his writings might know what they believed is true.

We are also told to be able to give a reason for what we believe. These are not statements of faith but statements about facts.

As William Laine Craig says we believe because of faith and faith is a gift of God yet the process of getting to having believing faith or being able to defend our faith we need to know the facts and that those facts are true.

 

That reason is important is seen in that Paul would reason with the Jews from the OT to prove that Jesus was the Messiah.

Also if reason is of no use why does William Laine Craig spendcso much time reasoning about Christianity.

[enoob57]

This whole argument is made moot by two verses
Romans 1:20 (KJV) [20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Everyone born here is held responsible by God to know that He ‘IS’ despite their claims...

Isaiah 1:18 (KJV) [18] Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Reason is the bases of written Word response ...

[branchesofHim]

Consider. Shalom.

Ecclesiastes 5:[1] Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.
[2] Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
[3] For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
[4] When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
[5] Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
[6] Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?
[7] For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.
[8] If thou seest the oppression of the poor, and violent perverting of judgment and justice in a province, marvel not at the matter: for he that is higher than the highest regardeth; and there be higher than they.
[9] Moreover the profit of the earth is for all: the king himself is served by the field.
[10] He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.
[11] When goods increase, they are increased that eat them: and what good is there to the owners thereof, saving the beholding of them with their eyes?
[12] The sleep of a labouring man is sweet, whether he eat little or much: but the abundance of the rich will not suffer him to sleep.
[13] There is a sore evil which I have seen under the sun, namely, riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt.
[14] But those riches perish by evil travail: and he begetteth a son, and there is nothing in his hand.
[15] As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand.
[16] And this also is a sore evil, that in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind?
[17] All his days also he eateth in darkness, and he hath much sorrow and wrath with his sickness.
[18] Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it is his portion.
[19] Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.
[20] For he shall not much remember the days of his life; because God answereth him in the joy of his heart.

[choir loft]

On 6/8/2020 at 4:40 PM, JAG** said:

Start quote.
"Henry Dodwell argues that matters of religious faith lie outside the
determination of reason. God could not possibly have intended that
reason should be the faculty to lead us to faith, for faith cannot
hang indefinitely is suspense while reason cautiously weighs and
reweighs arguments.

`The Scriptures teach, on the contrary, that the way to God is by
means of the heart, not by means of the intellect . . .(What is the
basis of faith? Dodwell answers that it is) the faith-producing work
of the Holy Spirit . . .

Now Alvin Plantinga . . .

Alvin Plantinga has launched a sustained attack on theological
rationalism. Plantinga maintains that belief in God and in the
central doctrines of Christianity is both rational and warranted
wholly apart from any evidential foundations for belief . . .

Then William Lane Craig says . . .

I think that Dodwell and Plantinga are correct that, fundamentally,
the way we know Christianity to be true is by the self-authenticating
witness of God's Holy Spirit."
End quote

Source:
Reasonable Faith
by William Lane Craig
pages 35, 39, 43

Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig are considered to be
Christendom's top Christian apologists.

____________


JAG Writes:
Christianity is a FAITH.

The word FAITH occurs hundreds and hundreds of times in the Bible
and is presented as being absolutely essential to sustaining
the Christian FAITH.

So?

So demonstrate with empiricism and logic that Christianity is true
at the certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and you then no longer have to
exercise FAITH in God.

It does NOT require any FAITH to believe that 2 + 2 = 4.

These 5 Bible verses below would no longer be needed and
would no longer be true.

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God"

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith"

■ "he that comes to God must believe that He
exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him"

■ "believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved"

■ God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life

■ And the HUNDREDS of other Bible verses that demand faith
would no longer be needed or be true.

Demonstrate with empiricism that Christianity is true at the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4 and then you would have this:

He that comes to God need NOT exercise faith because we
now know, based upon empirical evidence that rises to the
certainty-level of 2 + 2 = 4, that God exists. It is just as
certain as is the fact that New York City exists.

No faith is needed to believe that New York City exists.

So?

So . . .

Eliminate FAITH from Christianity and Christianity has just been
destroyed and wrecked.

■ "for by grace are you saved through faith" Ephesians 2:8

■ "without faith it is impossible to please God" Hebrews 11:6

■ "God gave His only Son that whoever believes on Him shall
not perish but have eternal life" John 3:16 --- Its impossible
to eliminate the need for Christendom's core Bible verse
John 3:16 without wrecking and destroying Christendom.


____________



Here are a couple of quotes that readers may find interesting:

(1) " . . . the role of rational argumentation in knowing Christianity to
be true is the role of a servant. A person knows Christianity is true
because the Holy Spirit tells him it is true, and while arguments and
evidence can be used to support this conclusion, they cannot
legitimately overrule it . . ." __William Lane Craig, Reasonable
Faith, page 51

(2) ". . .I'd say that with most people there's no need to use
apologetics at all . . . " __William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith,
page 57


_______________



Note: My Opening Post does NOT say that Christian Apologetics is not
useful and needed. Christian Apologetics IS useful and IS needed ---
but Christian Apologetics can NOT eliminate from Christianity the
necessity to exercise faith in God

However the opening Post does NOT advocate for Fideism.
The Opening Post makes one {1} main point --- that faith
cannot be eliminated from Christianity without destroying
Christianity.

"Strict Fideists assign no place to reason in discovering or
understanding fundamental tenets of religion. For them
blind faith is supreme as the way to certitude and
salvation."__off the web

Again . . .
I do not argue for Fideism. There are some evidences to support
the existence of God and the truth of Christianity, but these evidences
must be evaluated on the basis of Probability and Plausibility which
are subjective and are saturated with our human biases, prejudices,
and presuppositions. Nonetheless these kinds of arguments are valuable
to many people.



________


I post all the above as "food for thought" --- each reader can
draw his own conclusions regarding how much importance
he puts upon rational argumentation to support Christianity.

For those inclined to rational argumentation:
Here are Peter Kreeft's 20 Arguments for The Existence Of God.
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-mo...-existence.htm

 

 

`

 

QuoteReply

Report

Christianity has been diluted to the point of extinction.

Today it fulfills nothing of the intent of the fathers of the Protestant Reformation because protestants are in lock step with the Vatican.

Today it has become hedonistic humanistic and anti-semitic.  Many congregations willingly accept doctrines of demons and openly embrace occult principles and authority.

Today it denies the LAW, which Christ died to fulfill (Matthew 5:17).  Jesus came to destroy SIN, not to destroy the LAW.

Today church membership is admitted to be of more importance than the blood of Christ to save.

Tell such things to the normal Christian, who has probably never read the Bible cover to cover, and you will be called a heretic.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[JAG**]

17 hours ago, choir loft said:

Christianity has been diluted to the point of extinction.

Today it fulfills nothing of the intent of the fathers of the Protestant Reformation because protestants are in lock step with the Vatican.

Today it has become hedonistic humanistic and anti-semitic.  Many congregations willingly accept doctrines of demons and openly embrace occult principles and authority.

Today it denies the LAW, which Christ died to fulfill (Matthew 5:17).  Jesus came to destroy SIN, not to destroy the LAW.

Today church membership is admitted to be of more importance than the blood of Christ to save.

Tell such things to the normal Christian, who has probably never read the Bible cover to cover, and you will be called a heretic.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Choir Loft, thanks for your comments.

 

 

[Knotical]

20 hours ago, choir loft said:

Christianity has been diluted to the point of extinction.

Today it fulfills nothing of the intent of the fathers of the Protestant Reformation because protestants are in lock step with the Vatican.

Today it has become hedonistic humanistic and anti-semitic.  Many congregations willingly accept doctrines of demons and openly embrace occult principles and authority.

Today it denies the LAW, which Christ died to fulfill (Matthew 5:17).  Jesus came to destroy SIN, not to destroy the LAW.

Today church membership is admitted to be of more importance than the blood of Christ to save.

Tell such things to the normal Christian, who has probably never read the Bible cover to cover, and you will be called a heretic.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

What you speak of here depends entirely on the denomination.  Yes, there are those denominations who identify themselves as Christian, yet don't preach and hold to the full counsel of God.  However, God is able to use these denominations to call people to Him.  There are other, more conservative, and right thinking/believing denominations where those who have been revealed the Truth in their personal study of the Word while attending more liberal churches can plug in and further realize the Truth of God's Word.

It is rather ironic that those who have not fully explored Scripture would consider those who have apostate/heretical.

[choir loft]

On 6/13/2020 at 11:58 AM, Knotical said:

What you speak of here depends entirely on the denomination.  Yes, there are those denominations who identify themselves as Christian, yet don't preach and hold to the full counsel of God.  However, God is able to use these denominations to call people to Him.  There are other, more conservative, and right thinking/believing denominations where those who have been revealed the Truth in their personal study of the Word while attending more liberal churches can plug in and further realize the Truth of God's Word.

It is rather ironic that those who have not fully explored Scripture would consider those who have apostate/heretical.

Which denomination?     hmmmm   

Let's see which ones are "right thinking".

Leadership of the Lutheran and Presbyterian denominations met in their conventions several years ago.  One of the issues to be voted on was a redefinition of the Bible as A Word of God rather than THE Word of God.  The redefinition renders the Bible equal to any other literature of mankind - essentially not something specially important. (I was advised of these changes by men who attended the conventions as well as physical documentation to prove it.)

The Episcopal denomination has been in lock step with Rome for decades.  I was present with leadership when decisions were made to abandon ignore and otherwise obstruct the Biblical assertion that one must be saved in the name of Jesus Christ.  The true gospel, as far as Rome is concerned, is that church membership saves - NOT the blood of Christ.  Therein lies the danger of apostasy and heresy.

Methodists, once known for their instructive youth programs and logical step by step 'method' of living the normal Christian life, have deteriorated into combative and controversial issues at their conventions.  Youth programs no longer instruct in Bible studies but are essentially a baby sitting venue for teens.  Moral and ethical issues are ripping the denomination apart and very little emphasis is now placed on Jesus Christ or being His disciple.   After years of membership, being married in the Methodist church and even laying the foundations of a new congregation and building, my wife and I left the church in disgust.  The church is fatally infected with occult influences and sexual aberrations.

The "of God" denominations such as Assembly and Church of denominations and all their spin offs have aggressively adopted doctrines of demons posited by Francisco Ribera in 1592.  The Catholic doctrine is known generally as FUTURISM and departs greatly from the assertions of Daniel and Revelation that identify Roman Catholicism and Papal authority as being the anti-Christ BEAST and its leader.  Ribera's doctrines were updated in the mid-19th century by John Nelson Darby and were widely accepted by the general Protestant population in America.  Heresies such as the existence of hell, the rapture and the effect of the tribulation are all a part of the post-modern gospel - none of which is vetted by the general context of scripture.

The LAW, which is the foundation of God's redemptive work for humanity, has been denied and displaced by a licentious form of grace.  This subversion of Biblical intent has resulted in what many theologians of the latter twentieth century warned would be a growing tendency of protestantism to enter a self-destructive mode.  Indeed it has, for every valid statistic points to the loss of membership of protestant churches.  Jesus didn't come to abolish the LAW (Matt 5:17). He came to destroy SIN.  Yet many evangelical churches, especially the TV evangelist types, embrace licentious SIN.  There is no place for confession and repentance of SIN in the modern protestant church.  Hence there is no way for prayers to be heard in heaven.  (John 9:31, 1 John 1:9 & John 14:15)

Anti-Semitism is on the rise in all protestant churches.  With the single exception of the Baptist denomination the BDS movement, directed and maintained by aggressive Palestinian organizations, has been embraced and supported by very other Protestant denomination in America.  (The Catholic church remains sitting astride the political fence on this issue.)  Genesis 12:3 quotes God speaking to Abraham saying, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you."  Therefore protestant churches, which have joined the BDS movement against Israel, are bringing divine wrath down upon their own heads.  (1 Peter 4:17)

You wrote that "those who have not fully explored Scripture would consider those who have apostate/heretical" without understanding or admitting that the same denominations you assume to be holy and just and 'right thinking' are in fact apostate rebels opposing the gospel.  When protestant churches deny the Old Testament in whole or in part there is NO full exploration of scripture at all.   You know not of which you speak.  I invite you to explore the situation with open eyes instead of closing them to the danger of apostacy.

According to PEW and Gallup polls, 2010 attendance figures for protestant churches were 50% of 1948 levels.   Projections of these trends should they not be reversed will result in a decline to 10% by the year 2050.

Figures don't lie and attitudes of the present protestant denominations are in line with political correctness rather than the gospel as presented in the Word of God. 

Multitudes are leaving the protestant churches because of its apostasy - prosperity gospel, fake healing, and general hypocrisy.  Where are they going?  They are going to the Roman Catholic church, to Messianic Jewish congregations or simply backsliding into secular living.

Denial of these FACTS won't solve the problem and won't do anything to glorify God.   Accusing one who knows such things of being ignorant is a tinsel thin attempt at masking a very real present problem.   One might even suggest such an attempt is made at the inspiration of the devil itself.   Be careful who you charge with deception lest you be deceived yourself.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   

Edited June 17, 2020 by choir loft

[Alive]

I think a whole lot of folks leaving the denominations are meeting in homes. I think this could very well be, the Lord's doing.

[Knotical]

25 minutes ago, choir loft said:

Which denomination?     hmmmm   

Let's see which ones are "right thinking".

Leadership of the Lutheran and Presbyterian denominations met in their conventions several years ago.  One of the issues to be voted on was a redefinition of the Bible as A Word of God rather than THE Word of God.  The redefinition renders the Bible equal to any other literature of mankind - essentially not something specially important. (I was advised of these changes by men who attended the conventions as well as physical documentation to prove it.)

The Episcopal denomination has been in lock step with Rome for decades.  I was present with leadership when decisions were made to abandon ignore and otherwise obstruct the Biblical assertion that one must be saved in the name of Jesus Christ.  The true gospel, as far as Rome is concerned, is that church membership saves - NOT the blood of Christ.  Therein lies the danger of apostasy and heresy.

Methodists, once known for their instructive youth programs and logical step by step 'method' of living the normal Christian life, have deteriorated into combative and controversial issues at their conventions.  Youth programs no longer instruct in Bible studies but are essentially a baby sitting venue for teens.  Moral and ethical issues are ripping the denomination apart and very little emphasis is now placed on Jesus Christ or being His disciple.   After years of membership, being married in the Methodist church and even laying the foundations of a new congregation and building, my wife and I left the church in disgust.  The church is fatally infected with occult influences and sexual aberrations.

The "of God" denominations such as Assembly and Church of denominations and all their spin offs have aggressively adopted doctrines of demons posited by Francisco Ribera in 1592.  The Catholic doctrine is known generally as FUTURISM and departs greatly from the assertions of Daniel and Revelation that identify Roman Catholicism and Papal authority as being the anti-Christ BEAST and its leader.  Ribera's doctrines were updated in the mid-19th century by John Nelson Darby and were widely accepted by the general Protestant population in America.  Heresies such as the existence of hell, the rapture and the effect of the tribulation are all a part of the post-modern gospel - none of which is vetted by the general context of scripture.

The LAW, which is the foundation of God's redemptive work for humanity, has been denied and displaced by a licentious form of grace.  This subversion of Biblical intent has resulted in what many theologians of the latter twentieth century warned would be a growing tendency of protestantism to enter a self-destructive mode.  Indeed it has, for every valid statistic points to the loss of membership of protestant churches.  Jesus didn't come to abolish the LAW (Matt 5:17). He came to destroy SIN.  Yet many evangelical churches, especially the TV evangelist types, embrace licentious SIN.  There is no place for confession and repentance of SIN in the modern protestant church.  Hence there is no way for prayers to be heard in heaven.  (John 9:31, 1 John 1:9 & John 14:15)

Anti-Semitism is on the rise in all protestant churches.  With the single exception of the Baptist denomination the BDS movement, directed and maintained by aggressive Palestinian organizations, has been embraced and supported by very other Protestant denomination in America.  (The Catholic church remains sitting astride the political fence on this issue.)  Genesis 12:3 quotes God speaking to Abraham saying, "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you."  Therefore protestant churches, which have joined the BDS movement against Israel, are bringing divine wrath down upon their own heads.  (1 Peter 4:17)

You wrote that "those who have not fully explored Scripture would consider those who have apostate/heretical" without understanding or admitting that the same denominations you assume to be holy and just and 'right thinking' are in fact apostate rebels opposing the gospel.  When protestant churches deny the Old Testament in whole or in part there is NO full exploration of scripture at all.   You know not of which you speak.  I invite you to explore the situation with open eyes instead of closing them to the danger of apostacy.

According to PEW and Gallup polls, 2010 attendance figures for protestant churches were 50% of 1948 levels.   Projections of these trends should they not be reversed will result in a decline to 10% by the year 2050.

Figures don't lie and attitudes of the present protestant denominations are in line with political correctness rather than the gospel as presented in the Word of God. 

Multitudes are leaving the protestant churches because of its apostasy - prosperity gospel, fake healing, and general hypocrisy.  Where are they going?  They are going to the Roman Catholic church, to Messianic Jewish congregations or simply backsliding into secular living.

Denial of these FACTS won't solve the problem and won't do anything to glorify God.   Accusing one who knows such things of being ignorant is a tinsel thin attempt at masking a very real present problem.   One might even suggest such an attempt is made at the inspiration of the devil itself.   Be careful who you charge with deception lest you be deceived yourself.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...   

I can't speak to all of these denominations, however, I will comment on Presbyterian.  As with other denominations I am sure this one has its range from conservative to liberal.  I would imagine the denomination within the presbyterian facet of things that would have come to this decision was the PCUSA, I can't imagine the OPC, PCA, or the like, would have come to that conclusion.  There would have been some major contention otherwise.  More-so in the OPC as it is strictly conservative, the PCA is a little less so as it tends to run the gambit from churches who are closer in views to the OPC to those who left the PCUSA because of it being too liberal.