Are the U.S. and Trump the Ones Restraining?

[WilliamL]

It has been over a year since I first started this string. Original post:

On 6/23/2020 at 9:57 AM, WilliamL said:

2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now you know the [thing] restraining [lit., holding down/fast; the Greek is neuter: ‛that which restrains/holds down’],

that he [the Son of Perdition] may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only the one now restraining/holding down [the Greek here is masculine: ‛he who restrains/holds fast’]

[will do so] until he is come out of the midst.

Matthew Henry (d. 1714): “This is supposed to be the power of the Roman empire, which the apostle did not think fit to mention more plainly at that time...” [The New Testament writers never openly spoke ill about the Roman authorities. If, as some claim, Paul here meant the Holy Spirit, then there would have been no reason at all for him to speak about it so obscurely.]

A. R. Fausser (1871): “...the power that has restrained the man of sin from his full and final development, is the moral and conservative influence of political states [OLSHAUSEN]: the fabric of human polity as a coercive power; as "he who now letteth" refers to those who rule that polity by which the great upbursting of godlessness is kept down [ALFORD]. The "what withholdeth" refers to the general hindrance; "he who now letteth," to the person in whom that hindrance is summed up. ...”

Can there be any doubt that the spirit of lawlessness is now diligently working to destroy Americaʼs restraining (but waning) power against lawlessness; that is, that this spirit is subverting the governmentʼs ability to hold fast to the order of U.S. law and world law?

And that the current “he who restrains/holds fast” is the President of the United States, Donald Trump? (However incompetent to the task he may be.)

And that the Son of Perdition is waiting in the wings, preparing to step onto the stage as a deliverer during the coming time of economic and political chaos?

Now that "America First" Trump is gone, and Biden reigns, do we see the spirit of lawlessness increasing in the world, and America's restraining power decreasing?

If so, do you see the advent of the Son of Perdition (= Daniel 11:40's King of the North in my book) anytime soon? What needs to play out first?

[Diaste]

On 7/20/2021 at 2:43 PM, WilliamL said:

It has been over a year since I first started this string. Original post:

Now that "America First" Trump is gone, and Biden reigns, do we see the spirit of lawlessness increasing in the world, and America's restraining power decreasing?

If so, do you see the advent of the Son of Perdition (= Daniel 11:40's King of the North in my book) anytime soon? What needs to play out first?

I think it obvious lawlessness increased under Trump. The Left hated him so much they had to throw their violent tantrums. NY quit holding criminals and in CA it was legal to shoplift. 

Maybe the US does have an influence on the world but I think the idea doesn't fit.

It's possible there is a way to anticipate the arrival of the beast. I don't know what it is. Might be here now and we don't know it. 

[WilliamL]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's possible there is a way to anticipate the arrival of the beast. I don't know what it is. Might be here now and we don't know it. 

Just to be clear, the Son of Perdition is not the Beast. The former comes before the Rapture, the latter comes after it. Those who are faithful servants when the Lord comes will not be around to see the Rev. 13 Beast kingdom.

[Diaste]

On 7/29/2021 at 11:33 AM, WilliamL said:

Just to be clear, the Son of Perdition is not the Beast. The former comes before the Rapture, the latter comes after it. Those who are faithful servants when the Lord comes will not be around to see the Rev. 13 Beast kingdom.

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." - 2 Thess 2

"It magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12And in the rebellion,a the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did." - Dan 8 [little horn out of the 4 horns]

"He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time." - Dan 7 [little horn of the 4th beast]

"Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods." - Dan 11 

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven." - Rev 13

Each of these do the same thing, blaspheme. It's like it has a special talent as blasphemy against God happens all the time, yet it's noted in this person again and again.

And then:

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them....

 25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High...

...and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time." - Dan 7 [little horn of the 4th beast]

"He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 

 In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes". - Dan 8 [little horn of the 4 horns]

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them," - Rev 13

So the 2 Thess 2 son of perdition/man of lawlessness has the same characteristic naughty mouth as the little horn of the 4th beast, the little of the 4 horns, and the beast of Rev 13. And the little horn of the 4th beast, the little horn of 4 horns and the Rev 13 beast all conquer the saints. 

The son of perdition/man of lawlessness, the little horn of the 4th beast, the little horn of the 4 horns and the beast of Rev 13 are one and the same. 

I have never been in favor of the need to conjure another beast, another gathering, another coming of Jesus, etc., etc. If you go down that road why stop at one more? We could have several beasts: the little horn of the 4th beast is not the same as the little horn of the 4 horns, not the same as the willful king, not the same as the 2 Thess 2 self exalter, and all different from the Rev 13 beast from the sea.

I have even heard people conclude the beast from the earth is the beast from the sea and is indeed the first beast when it's clearly the 2nd beast and it's own being. 

No one that's an investigator [that I know of] looks for dissimilar evidence in the solving of a crime. They compare MOs and narrow it down to fewer and fewer suspects that operate in the same way. When there are enough dissimilarities that removes a suspect from consideration. In this case the similarities are evident in the self exalting blasphemy and the war and success against the saints. The various pictures of the beast as seen across 2500 years of prophecy are characteristics of the rise, rule, acts and ends of the same person and the kingdom over which he presides, not a roster.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Uriah]

On 8/1/2021 at 6:01 AM, Diaste said:

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God." - 2 Thess 2

"It magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. 12And in the rebellion,a the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did." - Dan 8 [little horn out of the 4 horns]

"He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High, intending to change the appointed times and laws; and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time." - Dan 7 [little horn of the 4th beast]

"Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods." - Dan 11 

"The beast was given a mouth to speak arrogant and blasphemous words, and authority to act for 42 months. 6And the beast opened its mouth to speak blasphemies against God and to slander His name and His tabernacle—those who dwell in heaven." - Rev 13

Each of these do the same thing, blaspheme. It's like it has a special talent as blasphemy against God happens all the time, yet it's noted in this person again and again.

And then:

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and prevailing against them....

 25He will speak out against the Most High and oppress the saints of the Most High...

...and the saints will be given into his hand for a time, and times, and half a time." - Dan 7 [little horn of the 4th beast]

"He will destroy the mighty men along with the holy people. 

 In a time of peace he will destroy many, and he will even stand against the Prince of princes". - Dan 8 [little horn of the 4 horns]

"Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them," - Rev 13

So the 2 Thess 2 son of perdition/man of lawlessness has the same characteristic naughty mouth as the little horn of the 4th beast, the little of the 4 horns, and the beast of Rev 13. And the little horn of the 4th beast, the little horn of 4 horns and the Rev 13 beast all conquer the saints. 

The son of perdition/man of lawlessness, the little horn of the 4th beast, the little horn of the 4 horns and the beast of Rev 13 are one and the same. 

I have never been in favor of the need to conjure another beast, another gathering, another coming of Jesus, etc., etc. If you go down that road why stop at one more? We could have several beasts: the little horn of the 4th beast is not the same as the little horn of the 4 horns, not the same as the willful king, not the same as the 2 Thess 2 self exalter, and all different from the Rev 13 beast from the sea.

I have even heard people conclude the beast from the earth is the beast from the sea and is indeed the first beast when it's clearly the 2nd beast and it's own being. 

No one that's an investigator [that I know of] looks for dissimilar evidence in the solving of a crime. They compare MOs and narrow it down to fewer and fewer suspects that operate in the same way. When there are enough dissimilarities that removes a suspect from consideration. In this case the similarities are evident in the self exalting blasphemy and the war and success against the saints. The various pictures of the beast as seen across 2500 years of prophecy are characteristics of the rise, rule, acts and ends of the same person and the kingdom over which he presides, not a roster.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Diaste,

Gotta say, Dan 8 identifies the players involved as Media Persia and Greece, while ch. 11 coves Greece, Egypt and even involves Edom and Moab along with Ethiopia & Libya.

There is a misunderstand most likely on the phrase "rime of the end".

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Diaste,

Gotta say, Dan 8 identifies the players involved as Media Persia and Greece, while ch. 11 coves Greece, Egypt and even involves Edom and Moab along with Ethiopia & Libya.

There is a misunderstand most likely on the phrase "rime of the end".

It does. And it covers the four notable ones and the one that comes out of them. Dan 11 covers them as well and the one that comes out of them. Yes? No?

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

It does. And it covers the four notable ones and the one that comes out of them. Dan 11 covers them as well and the one that comes out of them. Yes? No?

Would you explain please

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, Uriah said:

Would you explain please

I will try. I'm at work so it's not as easy. But look at this:

 at the height of his power, his large horn was broken off, and four prominent horns came up in its place, pointing toward the four winds of heaven.

9From one of these horns a little horn emerged and grew extensively toward the south and the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10It grew as high as the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the earth, and trampled them. - Dan 8

But as soon as he is established, his kingdom will be broken up and parceled out toward the four winds of heaven. - Dan 11

This is speaking to the Diadochi in both Dan 8 and 11. So we must follow the four notable ones the horns represent. I'm sure you'll agree.

Then we know the A of D literally happened in 167 BC and it's recorded in Dan 11; Then he will turn back and rage against the holy covenant and do damage. So he will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant. 31His forces will rise up and desecrate the temple fortress. They will abolish the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation.

From history we know this is Antiochus IV. Antiochus IV is a grandson of Seleucus Nicator. Jesus tells us to look to Daniel the Prophet for the understanding of the A of D. A part of that is the person and lineage of the one who committed the A of D. That being the case we are following the Seleucid line, which coincidentally is Syrian and Assyrian from Mesopotamia.

I conclude Greece and Europe and Rome is a distraction from this. And this idea of Antiochus and the Seleucids is firmly entrenched in the books of the Prophet Daniel.

[WilliamL]

On 8/1/2021 at 4:01 AM, Diaste said:

So the 2 Thess 2 son of perdition/man of lawlessness has the same characteristic naughty mouth as the little horn of the 4th beast, the little of the 4 horns, and the beast of Rev 13. And the little horn of the 4th beast, the little horn of 4 horns and the Rev 13 beast all conquer the saints. 

The son of perdition/man of lawlessness, the little horn of the 4th beast, the little horn of the 4 horns and the beast of Rev 13 are one and the same. 

The first paragraph is true. The second paragraph is a false presumption and is not true.

To list just two reasons: the diminutive horn of Daniel 8 came out of the Greek Empire, whereas the little -- a different term than used in Dan. 8 -- horn comes out of the Roman Empire. Two entirely different prophecies of two entirely different people.

The diminutive horn of Daniel 8 = the self-exalted king of Daniel 11 = Antiochus Epiphanes, who was a type and shadow of the coming Son of Perdition.

[Diaste]

On 8/4/2021 at 10:57 AM, WilliamL said:

The first paragraph is true. The second paragraph is a false presumption and is not true.

To list just two reasons: the diminutive horn of Daniel 8 came out of the Greek Empire, whereas the little -- a different term than used in Dan. 8 -- horn comes out of the Roman Empire. Two entirely different prophecies of two entirely different people.

The diminutive horn of Daniel 8 = the self-exalted king of Daniel 11 = Antiochus Epiphanes, who was a type and shadow of the coming Son of Perdition.

We'll see I suppose.