Are the U.S. and Trump the Ones Restraining?

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I know when the Rapture is, and all about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There are no gaps in my understandings. The Rapture is clearly seen, the Church is seen in Rev. 4:4 and 5:9 BEFORE the Seals are opened. You can't deny this, so you avoid it. Those seen in the 5th Seal and in Rev. 20:4 CAN NOT come out of the Tribulation until Jesus Returns, thus those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can only be from the Church Age, which means a Pre 70th week Rapture. Those called a Remnant in Rev. 12:17 can ONLY BE the Remnant Church which proves the Church is in Heaven at that time. They cant be Jews, the Woman is PROTECTED, the 2/3 who do not Repent CAN NOT have the Testimony of Jesus. Now, that means THE REMNANT can only be the Gentile Church. I can go on and on because I deal with God's TRUTHS, or else I do not go forth until I understand the issue. Too many here jump onto Men's Traditions and ride them their entire lives. I don't get, God will teach us all, yet we allow this, I guess I should understand it, I was in the same boat for about 25 years. 

Revelation 19, we return with Jesus FROM HEAVEN. You are kidding yourself brother if you think those scriptures do not show a Pre 70th week Rapture. And remember, God will requite us for every word we utter. I fear God, I am not going to utter what I am not certain of. You can bank on that. 

God Bless.

 

I don't see you give him much credit. 

All I ever hear is "I know everything about prophecy."

You DON'T KNOW.  Jesus knows. You can't even humble yourself under Him.

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

This is an UNTRUTH, the word was DEPARTURE........Not Rebellion, you, like so many others seek to pick and choose what makes your points. I don't do that, I try to get to the root of the Original Understanding, why would I care what they thought in the 1500's when they translated it? Why should you want t use the 1500s understanding? Because it backs your understanding up, even though it is in error. 

You got your understanding from he 1600s, not from Paul who was speaking about the Church Departing or LEAVING its STANDING on this earth. Try as you might, you will never be able to make the Scriptures say Paul was speaking about THE FAITH, because Faith is never mentioned in the whole chapter, and you know this, all you are doing is allowing yourself to be deceived brother. 

 

I got it from the Greek that nobody translated. And I'm not favoring the translation that confirms bias. You're doing that.

[existential mabel]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

n light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for 1500 some odd years.

ok many thanks yes i have looked at the Genva bible foot notes and came to realise the emphasis on the papal....very interesting thou. like a historical time stamp document . they were seeing this and could understand it.  another thing i find interesting is

1. the fact that most churches use the NIV and not the Kings bible

2. The King James bible doesnt have endless reprints like all the other bibles but alas the NKJV .....opened the way for reprints imo

[WilliamL]

On 12/7/2020 at 11:26 AM, existential mabel said:

2. The King James bible doesnt have endless reprints like all the other bibles but alas the NKJV .....opened the way for reprints imo

Pardon me, but the KJV has gone through MANY revisions, because of all the errors in the original.

[WilliamL]

On 12/7/2020 at 4:23 AM, Diaste said:

Paul says, "That day [of the Parousia of Christ] shall not come until the rebellion and the man of sin is revealed."

and, "Now you know what is restraining."

Paul's earlier statement sets the order and the players. Jesus isn't coming back and the gathering won't happen until after the rebellion and the revealing.

The rebellion and the revealing are what restrains the day from occurring.

This is you merely rehashing an old argument which I have already answered.

RE: your last sentence: Neither the apostasy/rebellion nor the revealing of the Man of Sin restrain the Coming of the Lord, they only precede the Parousia in time. Did you really mean to say that??

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

This is you merely rehashing an old argument which I have already answered.

RE: your last sentence: Neither the apostasy/rebellion nor the revealing of the Man of Sin restrain the Coming of the Lord, they only precede the Parousia in time. Did you really mean to say that??

Well, it is the best argument since that's what is written.

Right before Paul says this:

"Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time."

He gives the order of events as you well know; rebellion and revealing, then the coming and gathering. 

The above statement by Paul is in the context concerning the coming of Jesus and the day of His coming. Can't switch gears for this and now say it must be the man of sin that's restrained when Paul is giving assurances about when the Day of the Lord is happening, not about when the beast will rise.

The 'what' holding back is the revealing and the rebellion and the 'him' is the Lord.

"Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness"

The 'it will not come' can only be the Coming of the Lord and the gathering and only after apostasy and the rise of the beast. 

I'm not going to change the context.

Maybe one could say the apostasy is what is holding back the revealing of the beast and that is the 'him' Paul mentions, but that also seems out of context to me. 

The whole concern is;

"the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him,"

This is what Paul answer unswervingly throughout 2 Thess 2:1-12

[Diaste]

On 12/7/2020 at 6:10 AM, Revelation Man said:

This is an UNTRUTH, the word was DEPARTURE........Not Rebellion, you, like so many others seek to pick and choose what makes your points. I don't do that, I try to get to the root of the Original Understanding, why would I care what they thought in the 1500's when they translated it? Why should you want t use the 1500s understanding? Because it backs your understanding up, even though it is in error. 

You got your understanding from he 1600s, not from Paul who was speaking about the Church Departing or LEAVING its STANDING on this earth. Try as you might, you will never be able to make the Scriptures say Paul was speaking about THE FAITH, because Faith is never mentioned in the whole chapter, and you know this, all you are doing is allowing yourself to be deceived brother. 

 

Honestly, you have to do better. The scriptures predate all the translations we have. In all the work I have put in between the Greek and the versions we have today there is no disagreement. But it's not an understanding of a time period that I'm looking for; I want an eternal understanding of what the Lord Jesus teaches. I care nothing for man's understanding of the Word unless it aligns with Christ. 

"13 But we should always thank God for you, brothers who are loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning to be saved by the sanctification of the Spirit and by FAITH in the truth." - 2 Thess 2

Again...'apostasy' appears in the text of 2 Thess 2. No other word. Just that one. 

An example from 1 Timothy 4

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, "

"Depart" here is a future tense "apostēsontai" and is defined, "aphistēmi intransitive use, shall stand off from, to fall away, apostatize "

Even when we find the word 'depart' in the verb forms you tout as evidence we see it's not what you conclude. From Strong's this word in 1 Tim 4 is "aphistémi: to lead away, to depart from"

The usage of aphistemi is: " I make to stand away, draw away, repel, take up a position away from, withdraw from, leave, abstain from."

You are trying to crowbar this into the real gathering of of the saints described here:

"17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds..." 1 Thess 4

'shall be caught up' is the Rapture. This is:

harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away
Usage: I seize, snatch, obtain by robbery.

726 harpázō – properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively – like someone seizing bounty (spoil, a prize); to take by an open display of force (i.e. not covertly or secretly).

You're way off.

 

[existential mabel]

18 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Pardon me, but the KJV has gone through MANY revisions, because of all the errors in the original.

oh ok so are there Any bibles that havent gone through Many revisions then?!

[Revelation Man]

On 12/7/2020 at 9:22 AM, kingdombrat said:

I think it's adorable that all that we read in the Bible [suffering of those who are Saved] that you believe you should be exempt.   It cracks me up to think you believe you are more [special] to God than His own Disciples/Apostles who all but 1 died a horrible and tortured death.

Been working on a Bathroom remodel, wow, work, work, work, the ole lady was a beast on me this last week or so.

Brother, you do not grasp God's plans in full. Why did we SUFFER and DIE over the ages? Why did Noah need to restart the earths population? Why did Abraham and Lot not just get taken to Heaven to avoid troubles? Why did early Christians have to build the Church via their blood? All these questions have a COMMON SENSE ANSWER. 

Noah and Abraham had to BIRTH the Savior, lol.....that's just common sense. The Church had to BIRTH the Gospel unto the WHOLE WORD in order to save the whole world, or at least give them ear unto the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, why would the Church need to hang around for the 70th week? You explain that unto me. Jesus in Matt. 24:14 CLEARLY STATES that once the Gospel has been taken unto the ends of the earth, THEN THE END (70th Week) WILL COME!! The Two-witnesses will be sent to turn Israel back unto God (Malachi 4:5-6) and an Angel preachers the Gospel unto the whole world as the book of Revelation tells us. Our job is finished, the Churches job was not to suffer and die, LOL, our job was to take the Gospel unto the ends of the world, once we have done that, our mission is OVER. Our job was never to die, it was just a by-product of the early church.

So, you just do not have the correct perception brother. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Revelation Man]

On 12/7/2020 at 10:52 AM, Diaste said:

I don't see you give him much credit. 

All I ever hear is "I know everything about prophecy."

You DON'T KNOW.  Jesus knows. You can't even humble yourself under Him.

God gives us our talents. And I have stated many times, and you have read it many times, that about 5 years ago the Holy Spirit showed me that the reason we can't understand these prophesies is because "You guys already know it all Ron". 

So, I took instruction and CHANGED the way I looked at things, you guys seemingly want to cling to things you learned from other men. I put off MEN'S TRADITIONS and allowed the Holy Spirit to teach me, and I have stated that is why I have been given all things Revelation, Daniel etc. many times, and you even know this. So, carry on.

On 12/7/2020 at 10:59 AM, Diaste said:

I got it from the Greek that nobody translated. And I'm not favoring the translation that confirms bias. You're doing that.

The Greek means DEPARTURE, not from the Faith, thus its not APOSTASY.  Thus you can't get to Rebellion.