Raptured

[The Light]

33 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

  You are only disagreeing because it disagrees with your pet doctrine of post-trib.  I am not pre-trib and I have no problems with letting the Genesis text speak for itself.  

 

Exactly. Let the scripture speak for itself. Get the facts right, regardless of what you believe. That is how you learn the truth.

Build your beliefs on the truth of the scripture. Don't let your beliefs cloud your recognition of truth.

 

 

[Uriah]

3 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Quote

Did Jesus say "the flood came the same day that Noah entered the ark?".  No it does not.  "The day" is the day that Noah entered the ark, and does not refer to when the flood came.  You are ignoring that words "until" &  "and (the flood came) ".  Matthew gives clarity to what Jesus said by the placement of a period after that clause and then it says "And knew not UNTIL the flood came..."  This implies that it was not immediately.   And this is what is dually stated in Gen 7.  That there is a lack of clarity to the time element of Jesus's words is agreed upon.  From just reading Jesus's words, it could be any length of time, including the same day.  But the Genesis account disagrees with it being zero days.  But why would Jesus need to spell out something that is already spelled out?  You are only disagreeing because it disagrees with your pet doctrine of post-trib.  I am not pre-trib and I have no problems with letting the Genesis text speak for itself. 

 V. 12-And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. v. 13- In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

BTW the manuscripts have NO punctuation...PERIOD!

Try if you must, but you cannot disconnect these sentences. But you have awkwardly and contentedly tried to bypass this connection by reading things in a disconnected manner.

They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

This is what it is all about. You think he entered and the flood came 7 days later. But v. 13 says that the same day he entered the fountains broke open and torrents of rain came down.

What does "on that very day" mean? That he entered a week earlier? A few verses earlier? Right after the scripture goes into detail about the very day in Noah's life the flood came? No need to read following a ping pong ball. Just look at the pre/re telling of scripture.

Quote

The Luke 17:30  passage "Even thus shall it be...when the son of man is revealed", does not refer to what was in the previous verse about Lot

Are you kidding? Jesus was equating one with the other and His coming! 

, [where EVERYONE was destroyed] but refers/points to one of the other "DAYS of the son of man".  You can't have one taken/left be a feasible option if the other/first day of the son of man everyone was destroyed first.  There would be nobody left to subsequently take half of those remaining.   The verses that follow Luke 17:30 explains that half are taken/left WHEN the son of man is revealed.   Jesus is telling them that there will be more than one "day of destruction " when it comes to the DAYS of the son of man.

Luk 17:22 KJV And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the DAYS of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Luk 17:26 KJV And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the DAYS of the Son of man.

You have reduced the DAYS of the son of man to just ONE day of the son of man.  On one of those days he is coming to be revealed.  On another of HIS days, he is coming with utter/complete judgement.   They are not the same day.  Did Jesus say "As it was in the DAY of Noah?" Or does it always say "in the days of Noah that were BEFORE the flood?"

Be Blessed 

The PuP

 

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Da Puppers said:

On a different, I would like everyone to consider the following question:

Does the great rapture passage of 1Thess4 automatically mean a simultaneous resurrection? (equivalent to that found in 1Cor 15).

Consider the following:

1.  Is the trumpet of 1Thess4 the same as the last trumpet of 1Cor15?

2.  Where is the coming of Jesus in 1Cor15?

3. Where is the kingdom in 1Thess4?

4.[Here is the biggie].  Does it say that the SAINTS are resurrected in 1Thess4?  In 1Cor15, where the resurrection is extensively and unequivocally discussed, [I will not post all the occurences], the resurrection of our bodies, and christ's body is described by the use of the word egeiro, G1453, which literally means to be awoken from sleep...26 times in the first 52 verses.   Metaphorically speaking, our resurrection is spoken of as just that, awaking from the sleep of death.  And when we turn to 1Thess4, Paul says this:

 1Th 4:13-15 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP

There is no question that those here referred to as asleep/sleep that he further refers to them as the "dead in Christ".  So, when Paul says that those who believe that Christ "rose again", and that the "dead in Christ" SHALL RISE first, do you think that Paul said those who are ASLEEP shall arise...egeiro from their sleep?  He absolutely did not.  Paul did NOT say that we who believe that Christ "awoke from sleep"[egeiro].  Nor did he say that the dead in christ shall "awake from sleep" [egeiro] first.  It would never be more appropriate, nor would it be any clearer than to use the word egeiro, IF the resurrection was the intended thought.  But he didn't use egeiro in either instance, most notably when he was directly alluding to those (in Christ) who were sleeping in death at the time of Christs coming.  I told you this was a biggie.  

When the son of man,  in Dan 7, is seen coming in the clouds of heaven GOING TO the Father, (with no one seen accompanying him), it is only afterward that he is given the kingdom:

 Dan 7:13-14 KJV I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

When of Jesus it  is said (in 1Thess4) that God will bring with him those sleeping in Christ,  would they not be seen descending with Christ?  The answer is no because of the simple reason that Christ received his glorified body when he rose again to the Father.  Our more enduring substance is found in the heavens,  Heb 10:34.  As 1Cor15 makes clear, we are conferred immortality in accordance with the coming kingdom of Christ.   Christ is given the kingdom when he presents to the Father, those found worthy of the kingdom, 2Thess 1:5-10, 1Thess 3:13. (before God the Father with all the saints).  

What do we find when the 7th and last trumpet is blown and the kingdom of God has come?  Judgment of the dead and rewarding the SAINTS and prophets.

Rev 11:18 KJV And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Receiving a glorified immortal body before Christ is given the kingdom is contrary to the plan of god.  A simultaneous rapture and resurrection is also contrary to the events of 1Thess4 and 1Cor15.

Be Blessed 

The PuP

The dead in Christ will rise first at the trump of God- The barley harvest, the Feast of First Fruits. Then we which are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air. The wheat harvest, the Church, the Feast of Pentecost. Then the twelve tribes across the earth at the last trump, the fall fruit harvest, the Feast of Trumpets.

[Diaste]

On 7/10/2020 at 9:23 PM, Da Puppers said:

1Th 4:13-15 KJV But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are ASLEEP, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and ROSE AGAIN, even so them also which SLEEP in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are ASLEEP

There is no question that those here referred to as asleep/sleep that he further refers to them as the "dead in Christ".  So, when Paul says that those who believe that Christ "rose again", and that the "dead in Christ" SHALL RISE first, do you think that Paul said those who are ASLEEP shall arise...egeiro from their sleep?  He absolutely did not.  Paul did NOT say that we who believe that Christ "awoke from sleep"[egeiro].  Nor did he say that the dead in christ shall "awake from sleep" [egeiro] first.  It would never be more appropriate, nor would it be any clearer than to use the word egeiro, IF the resurrection was the intended thought.  But he didn't use egeiro in either instance, most notably when he was directly alluding to those (in Christ) who were sleeping in death at the time of Christs coming.  I told you this was a biggie.  

 

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 

and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thess 4:16-18

That is clearly a nearly simultaneous resurrection and harpazo.

You seem to be mistaking the concept of resurrection, which is explained in 1 Cor 15, with the details of the resurrection in 1 Thess 4. Obviously the same terms are not going to be used even though it's exactly the same event.  

You also didn't post all the verses. Kinda critical to have the entire story.

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Diaste

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Did Jesus say "the flood came the same day that Noah entered the ark?".  No it does not.  "The day" is the day that Noah entered the ark, and does not refer to when the flood came.  You are ignoring that words "until" &  "and (the flood came) ".  Matthew gives clarity to what Jesus said by the placement of a period after that clause and then it says "And knew not UNTIL the flood came..."  This implies that it was not immediately.   And this is what is dually stated in Gen 7.  That there is a lack of clarity to the time element of Jesus's words is agreed upon.  From just reading Jesus's words, it could be any length of time, including the same day.  But the Genesis account disagrees with it being zero days.  But why would Jesus need to spell out something that is already spelled out?  You are only disagreeing because it disagrees with your pet doctrine of post-trib.  I am not pre-trib and I have no problems with letting the Genesis text speak for itself.  

I'm pretty sure Jesus gave the facts of the book of Genesis to Moses. So when you say, "Did Jesus say..." the entire OT word of the Lord is the same Jesus as the one in the NT. Failure in this is failure in all.

Jesus said, "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;" - Genesis 7

What selfsame day? The 17th day of the 2nd month of Noah's 600th year. That date is is the only day to which 'selfsame' can refer. What else happened in the 600th year and the 17th day of the 2nd month? "the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

Not one verse says Noah was in the ark chillin' for 7 days. Genesis 7:11-13 refutes that notion by providing a specific day for the beginning of the flood and when Noah entered the ark.

What kind of thought process leads someone to predate from a specific day? Say you have an appointment at the repair shop, do you show up 7 days early because you made the appointment for 7 days in the future? "Well, I thought it was today because you said the appointment was 'in 7 days."

 

 

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: 

and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 

Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thess 4:16-18

That is clearly a nearly simultaneous resurrection and harpazo.

You seem to be mistaking the concept of resurrection, which is explained in 1 Cor 15, with the details of the resurrection in 1 Thess 4. Obviously the same terms are not going to be used even though it's exactly the same event.  

You also didn't post all the verses. Kinds critical to have the entire story.

 

What you have shown as a quote, under my name, is not what I wrote.

Not sure if you are asking me a question, or someone else.

[The Light]

13 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Gen 7:10 KJV And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Seven days after what?

After what happened in the first nine verses! Only two things are spoken of.  

1. God commanded Noah to get on board.

2.  Noah AND the animals got on board...on the same day.

Be Blessed 

The PuP

Correct. It's simple enough. Noah was on the ark 7 days before the flood.

[Diaste]

17 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

Gen 7:10 KJV And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Seven days after what?

After what happened in the first nine verses! Only two things are spoken of.  

1. God commanded Noah to get on board.

2.  Noah AND the animals got on board...on the same day.

Be Blessed 

The PuP

How about just going with the normal reading of everyday speech.

"I'm going to flood the earth 7 days from today."?

Berean Study Bible

"For seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living thing I have made.”"

"And after seven days the floodwaters came upon the earth."

"Now Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came upon the earth. And Noah and his wife, with his sons and their wives, entered the ark to escape the waters of the flood. The clean and unclean animals, the birds, and everything that crawls along the ground came to Noah to enter the ark, two by two, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.."

I suppose we could say Noah and the animals were in the ark 7 days prior based on the above, but the next bit pretty much refutes that.

In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month, all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

On that very day Noah entered the ark, along with his sons Shem, Ham, and Japheth, and his wife, and the three wives of his sons— they and every kind of wild animal, livestock, crawling creature, bird, and winged creature. They came to Noah to enter the ark, two by two of every creature with the breath of life. And they entered, the male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the LORD shut him in."

I can't understand why the evidence is ignored when it's right there. On the same day Noah turned 600, two months and seventeen days the flood began and Noah went in the ark and God shut them in. 

The only thing were are missing is 00:00:00 on this very specific date.

The floodwaters are coming in 7 days and Noah entered the ark along with his family and the animals on the day the flood began.

[Diaste]

4 hours ago, The Light said:

Correct. It's simple enough. Noah was on the ark 7 days before the flood.

Only through mental gymnastics, logical tap dancing, and a healthy dose of wishful thinking.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, The Light said:

What you have shown as a quote, under my name, is not what I wrote.

Not sure if you are asking me a question, or someone else.

Apologies. Fixed it.