My Challenge to our Arian friends of the Watchtower

[Daniel Marsh]

Make a list of your theology and seek to find it in the Early Church Fathers.   Give the complete quote, no ... dots for gaps with a link to where it is quoted from.   Only use primary sources.  The link is so others can check the quotes from the Church Fathers for themselves.

The Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles themselves. 

https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

The references for the quotes are at the bottom of the page of the site above.

One can look up the quotes at https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

 

[steve morrow]

THEOLOGY ??   TRUTH!!!    SCHOLARSHIP ??   DISCIPLESHIP!!!

PROVERBS 22:20  have not I written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge  --22:21-- that I might make thee know the certainty of the ---WORDS  OF  TRUTH--- that thou mightest answer ---THE  WORDS  OF  TRUTH--- to them that send unto thee

PROVERBS 30:6  add thou --NOT  UNTO  HIS  WORDS-- lest  HE  reprove thee and thou be found a liar 

 

PSALM 144:3  LORD  WHAT  IS  MAN  THAT  THOU  TAKEST  KNOWLEDGE  OF  HIM  THAT  THOU  MAKEST  ACCOUNT  OF  HIM 

JEREMIAH 16:12  AND  YOU  HAVE  DONE  WORSE  THAN  YOUR  FATHERS  FOR  BEHOLD  YOU  WALK  EVERYONE  AFTER  THE  IMAGINATION  OF  HIS  EVIL  HEART ---THAT  THEY  MAY  NOT  HEARKEN  UNTO  ME---

 

1 CORINTHIANS 11:3  but I would have you know that the head of every man is  CHRIST  and the head of the woman is the man ---AND  THE  HEAD  OF  CHRIST  IS  GOD---

PSALM 146:3  put not your trust in princes nor in the son of man --IN  WHOM  THERE  IS  NO  HELP--

 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Hi Steve, I do not see how that relates to quotes from the Church Fathers for your list of doctrines, whatever they may be. 

[Prycejosh1987]

On 7/1/2020 at 1:45 AM, Daniel Marsh said:

Make a list of your theology and seek to find it in the Early Church Fathers.   Give the complete quote, no ... dots for gaps with a link to where it is quoted from.   Only use primary sources.  The link is so others can check the quotes from the Church Fathers for themselves.

The Early Church Fathers were taught by the Apostles themselves. 

https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

The references for the quotes are at the bottom of the page of the site above.

One can look up the quotes at https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

 

Going off topic and reading heresy can have a massive effect on eternal destiny. Jehovah's witnesses believe in heresy.

[Daniel Marsh]

6 hours ago, Prycejosh1987 said:

Going off topic and reading heresy can have a massive effect on eternal destiny. Jehovah's witnesses believe in heresy.

Even though the JWs claim that they are not Arians.    Historical Theologians recognize their theology as being Arian.

Arius denied the deity of Jesus.    JWs and their their Watchtower clearly deny that Jesus is God.    I posted a thread on why having the wrong Jesus does in fact send one to eternal punishment.

 Matthew 25:46
New International Version
 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Paul clearly wrote that:  

No Other Gospel
6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

Jesus and Paul already made the judgment that those following a false God, false Jesus are not going to heaven.

I am simply pointing out the problem.

Apologetics is very well established as representing what the Church teaches.    

Concerning denominations  There is Major Theology ( who Jesus is and what he did ) vs Minor Theology (speaking in tongues, second coming theories and other things).   If one is missing the mark on Major Theology, Doctrines, Teachings they are not born of the Holy Spirit.    One can be born of the Holy Spirit and wrong on Minor Theology, Doctrines and Teachings that do not send one to Hell.    We are all by default going to eternal punishment.   One who believes on the Real Jesus and walks in the Holy Spirit are going to Heaven to live with God.

Let's let the Watchtower speak for itself, 

"In fact, the book concludes, any religious body other than the Watchtower Society and its followers is the “great whore of Babylon” condemned by the apostle John and to be destroyed by the coming judgment of God (pp. 370–371). Listen to the venom historically spouted by the Watchtower:

•      In Christendom, as surprising as it may seem to some, the false religious teachings create traditions, and commands of men are both directly and indirectly responsible for the physical and spiritual miseries of the poor, notwithstanding Christendom’s showy display of charity.
        Christendom’s pretended interest in the poor is sheer hypocrisy her priests have done violence to my law and have profaned my holy things her princes in the midst thereof are like wolves ravening the prey to shed blood and to destroy souls that they may get dishonest gain and her prophets have daubed them with untempered mortar, seeing false visions in divining lies unto them, saying thus says Jehovah when Jehovah hath not spoken the people of the land have used oppression and exercised robbery, yea they have vexed the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourners wrongfully oh, wicked Christendom, why have you forsaken God’s clean worship? Why have you joined forces and become part of Satan’s wicked organization that oppresses the people? Why have you failed to show concern for the poor as Jehovah commands?
        The little charitable help the poor get from Christendom is like the crumbs that beggar Lazarus picked up from the rich man’s table while the dog licked his ulcerous sores. Neither the crumbs nor the licking remedied the beggarly condition. Only Jehovah can effect a rescue. How comforting then for the dejected, down-trodden people of the earth to learn that there is One higher than the highest of Christendom’s moguls, yes, Jehovah the Almighty hears the cries of the half-dead ones, and in hearing He answers their prayers and sends His good Samaritans to the rescue, even the witnesses who are despised by Christendom.
        Haters of God and His people are to be hated, but this does not mean that we will take any opportunity of bringing physical hurt to them in the spirit of malice or spite, for both malice and spite belong to the devil, whereas, pure hatred does not.
        We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest. Surely any haters of God are not fit to live on His beautiful earth. The earth will be rid of the wicked, and we shall not need to lift a finger to cause physical harm to come to them, for God will attend to that, but we must have a proper perspective of these enemies. His name signifies recompense to the enemies.
        Jehovah’s enemies are recognized by their intense dislike for His people and the work these are doing. For they would break it down and have all of Jehovah’s Witnesses sentenced to jail or concentration camps if they could. Not because they have anything against the Witnesses personally, but on account of their work. They publish blasphemous lies and reproach the holy name Jehovah. Do we not hate those who hate God? We cannot love those hateful enemies, for they are fit only for destruction. We utter the prayer of the Psalmist, “How long, oh God, shall the adversary reproach, shall the enemy blaspheme thy name forever? Why drawest thou back thy hand, even thy right hand? Pluck it out of thy bosom and consume them” (Psalm 74:10–11). We pray with intensity and cry out this prayer for Jehovah to delay no longer and plead that His anger be made manifest; oh Jehovah, God of hosts be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. consume them in wrath, consume them so that they shall be no more (Psalm 59:4–6, 11–13). These are the true sentiments, desires, and prayers of the righteous ones today. Are they yours how we despise the workers of iniquity and those who would tear down God’s organization! “Oh, Jehovah. Let them be put to shame and dismayed forever, yea, let them be confounded and perish that they may know that Thou alone whose name is Jehovah art the most high over all the earth” (Psalm 83:9–18).
        The near neighbors of Judah have been the opposers of the Israelites right from the time when refusal was given by them to supply provisions to Israel as they journeyed to the promised land. Moab hired Baalam to curse Israel they had much contempt for Jehovah’s people and prided themselves in their own lofty city, her counterpart today being that rich, lofty city, the mighty religious organization standing for the whole of Satan’s organization. The modern-day Moabites are the professing Christians whose words and actions are as far removed from Christianity and true worship of Jehovah as Moab was removed from true worship in the covenant of Jehovah. Jehovah had warned Moab of His proposed punishment for her iniquity and opposition.
        The modern-day Moabites have opposed Jehovah’s Witnesses with a hatred not born of righteousness but from the devil and against all righteousness. Their hatred for God’s true people increases as they see upon us the very plain evidence of Jehovah’s favor in the obvious disfavor they themselves are in. They put forth every effort to prevent the people of goodwill from entering the new world. They are richer than Jehovah’s Witnesses in material things and with it they have much pride and arrogance.
        The modern-day Moabites will be brought low, for Jehovah has completely finished with them. Hear just a part of the punishment.
        “For in this mountain will the hand of Jehovah rest and Moab shall be trodden down in his place, even as straw is trodden down in the water of the dung hill. He shall spread forth his hands in the midst thereof as he that swimmeth spreadeth forth his hands to win, but Jehovah will lay low his pride together with the craft of his hands.”
        It is a sure thing that one cannot have much pride left when one is being pressed down into a manure pile, showing the utter contempt Jehovah has for modern-day Moab, keeping her wallowing in the mire of shame. “For thou has made of a city a heap, of a fortified city a ruin, a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be built.”
        He hath put down them that dwell on high; the lofty city, he layeth it low, he layeth it low even to the ground, he bringeth it even to the dust. The foot shall tread it down, even the feet of the poor and the steps of the needy.
        When this happens, what a tremendous change will take place; the tables will be turned! Brought down will be the lofty from dwelling on high as the great, high influential ones of this world to the lowest possible place imaginable, so low and degraded they can only be compared to being trampled under foot by the poor, like straw in a manure heap. Christendom’s lofty looks, boastful words, bragging tongue are her superior attitude toward the holy Word of God, her trust in idols, men and riches, such as belong to this world will not provide her with security or any safety from Jehovah’s storm and blast. They have no defense nor disgrace.
        Christendom’s defenses are of no value, but Jehovah’s Witnesses have a strong city and this is something to sing about. There are millions who want a safe place and are in need of security; let them know we have a strong city! “Thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise” (Isaiah 60:18). Only God’s kingdom offers such protection and salvation, for inside the city one is safe. Those desiring salvation must make for God’s organization, and find entrance into it and remain there permanently. God has been grossly misrepresented by the clergy. If this statement is true, then that alone is proof conclusive that the clergy do not, in fact, represent God and Christ but do represent God’s enemy, the devil. If the Bible plainly proves that the doctrines they teach are wrong and their course of action is wrong, then the most that can be said in extenuation of their wrongful teachings and their wrongful course of action is that they have been misled by the evil and seductive influence of Satan, the enemy of God. If the doctrines taught and the course taken by the clergy differ from that which is declared in the Word of God, then the clergy are in no wise safe guides for the people and should no longer be followed by the people.
        These doctrines originated with the devil. They have long been taught by his representatives. The clergy have been his instruments freely used to instill these false doctrines into the minds of men. Whether the clergy have willingly done so or not does not alter the fact. If they have now learned that they are wrong they should be eager to get that false thought out of the minds of the people. They do not take such a course.
        The clergy have at all times posed as the representatives of God on earth. Satan overreached the minds of these clergymen and injected into their minds doctrines, which doctrines the clergy have taught the people concerning Jesus and His sacrifice. These doctrines have brought great confusion. The apostles taught the truth, but it was not long after their death until the devil found some clergyman wise in his own conceit who thought he could teach more than the inspired apostles.
        The clergy are willingly or unwillingly the instruments in the hands of the god of this world, Satan, the devil, who has used them to blind the minds of the people, to prevent the people from understanding God’s great plan of salvation and reconciliation.

      According to the Watchtower, then, the clergy of Christendom are obviously the villains and are the object of “pure hatred.” Just how pure hatred differs from good old-fashioned hatred the Watchtower never gets around to explaining, but it is clear that Christendom (all historic denominations and churches) led by the allegedly corrupt clergy has foisted the “satanically conceived” Trinity doctrine and the doctrines of hell and eternal punishment upon the unsuspecting masses of mankind. Clergymen are therefore always suspect and their theology is to be regarded as untrustworthy and inspired by Satan."

https://www.waltermartin.com/cults.html

 

 

[Daniel Marsh]

In case I am misunderstood, we are to love those trapped in the Watchtower Jehovah's Witnesses cult,  but despite their false view of Jesus. 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ok, that post was too long.  Just read the sentence at the start of each paragraph.