Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[Don19]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, it does, and within those warnings is an implicit hope in the believers' salvation from perilous times, especially those called "overcomers."

Yes, we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.

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Yes, and it's a lot more than twelve. Comparisons with Israel, etc. are false equivalencies. 

If as few as 1% of Americans were elect, just that number would still be as the stars, based on the use of that concept in Deut 1:10 and the historical number to which it referred. Because 1% of Americans would be about 3.3 million souls. I'm not saying the percentage is that small; I say this for the sake of argument. (Of course, even if it were that, there's also all the dead in Christ, plus believers from other countries, etc.)

Nevertheless, because the number of the redeemed is described both as a remnant and as the number of stars, I don't think my reasoning is too far off. In absolute numbers, even quite a small remnant today, in relative terms, fits the bill, being as the number of stars. Otherwise, how do we reconcile the concept of a "remnant" with the number of stars? I conclude both are true, since the Bible speaks of both as being true. I don't think postmil does this, as it posits a time when perhaps the majority of the world will be regenerate, which is not a "remnant" and which would seem to undermine all the Biblical precepts which treat of the church as a remnant, as not of this world, and as strangers and pilgrims, etc.

 

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Yes, and despite that truth... as you have just said, we will outnumber the stars. 

lol. You do realize the Postmillennial pov is almost exclusively associated with the reformed soteriology you are articulating, yes?

So what? There are many things about the Reformed tradition that are unbiblical. A lot of that tradition is based on Augustine, but I believe Augustine was wrong. I believe Augustine denied individual assurance of salvation. Even Roman Catholicism teaches predestination, and that there is an elect whose salvation is assured. In an of itself, that's not the gospel. Without a basis for assurance for oneself, such a thing is useless. But Jesus promises us better gifts from our heavenly Father (Luke 11:11-13). Many of the Puritans were quite wrong on this issue. On that note, perseverance of the saints is a poor substitute for the Bible doctrine of preservation, or eternal security.

Assurance is of the essence of faith. I wonder if "ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim 3:7) doesn't describe at least some Reformed (not all).

 

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Again I remind everyone Jesus and Paul both taught the tribulation would be experienced by the Christians. Jesus stated quite plainly "They will deliver you to tribulation" (Mt. 24:9), so if that chapter is not about the first century conditions and the destruction of Jerusalem then pre-tribulation rapture is wrong. 

 

 

Yes, I agree that the Olivet Discourse refers to 70 AD.

 

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Consider the premise some of what is discussed pertaining to salvation is about a salvation apart from sin, a salvation from the persecutions of Jerusalem and Rome and the sparing of believers in Christ from the destruction of the covenant-breakers in the first century.

Yes, some uses of "salvation" are not, strictly speaking, in reference to eternal salvation. Mat 24:13 is talking about temporal salvation from the events of 70 AD, not perseverance of the saints as many Reformed claim. But some take this "conditional time salvation" to an unbiblical extreme.

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Those with a weak Jesus, a corrupt Church, and a powerful satan, whose eschatology has had a 100% fail rate predicting the future

So this goes back to your asking me to reconcile Satan as a stooge with him as the "god of this world." I believe I've made my position quite clear: Satan is defeated because he has no power to wrest us from the hands of God. No other power, if it were granted to us over Satan, even comes close! Hence why Jesus told the 70 not to rejoice in those temporal powers, but to rejoice because their names are written in heaven.

I think it's quite clear from Scripture that God gives Satan free rein in many respects in this world. He is a far more powerful being than any of us. Neither Judas nor Peter are treated of as having any "free will," as it were, to resist the devil's designs for them with respect to the events surrounding Jesus's crucifixion. None of us could resist the devil on our own, which is why we need to be dependent on God. So I believe that's part of God's design in Satan. He has created an adversary far stronger than any of us, that He might be our Fortress against the devil. All things were created by God and for God (Col 1:16), including Satan.

Now, many people think too much of the devil. No question about that. But it is also wrong to call him powerless, because Scripture treats him otherwise. But, like I said, he's a total stooge in God's hands. But his wiles force us into a position of greater dependence on God, and not ourselves.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Don19

[David1701]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Let's clarify that some with other scripture to provide a fuller context. 

Jesus was , is, and always has been good. He is God. His reference to "good" is likely a reference to Genesis 1:31 and Genesis 3:7. God looked upon all that he had made at the end of the six days - which included Adam and Eve - and He declared it good. This means Adam and Eve were good and declared such by God Himself. They were good, sinless, and unashamed. That all changed at Genesis 3:7 when Adam disobeyed God and brought sin and death into the world, realized he was ashamed. The two good, unashamed, and sinless humans instantly became not-good, ashamed, and sinful and no one since then (except Jesus) has ever enjoyed that prior unadulterated state. 

Since Jesus said that only God is good, I believe that he was referring to inherent goodness, rather than created goodness.  Apart from that, I agree with this.

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Jesus is stated to be a man who knew no sin (2 Cor. 5:21). He didn't know it cognitively, emotionally, volitionally, behaviorally, nor dispositionally. He, the last Adam, was not conceived with already-sinful flesh, but sinless flesh, just like the first two humans had been made - sinlessly. His response to the rich young ruler can be understood through Philippians 2 = he did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. Jesus is God. Jesus is, was, and always has been good. There has never been a time when was ever not good..... except that moment hanging on the cross when the sin of all humanity was placed upon him. 

He could not otherwise have been the perfect blemish-free sacrifice known before the creation of the world.

I don't think that Philippians 2 is relevant here.  As you have rightly stated, Jesus was and is always good (I'll come to the "exception").  Humility is not a denial of the truth and for Jesus to distinguish between himself and God, in terms of goodness, would have been just that.

Sin was imputed to Jesus, on the cross, but he did not actually become sinful (it's impossible for the immutable Son of God to become sinful).  When it says that he became sin for us, it means that the Father treated him as if he were sin incarnate, not that he actually was.

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And, in passing, we don't actually know the eternal disposition of the rich young ruler. He went away sad but for all we know he may have done as asked.

Yes, it's possible that he became saved later on.

[Don19]

Just now, Josheb said:

Got a question for you:

To what degree do you think you are aware of, acknowledging of, and able to discriminate the distinctions between soteriological texts and eschatological texts and their places of overlap?

The context of Rom 8:28-39 is soteriological, not eschatological.

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So you let me know when you're ready to engage what you yourself said: we, the redeemed, will one day out number the stars. 

You must have missed the part of my last post where I addressed it.

[David1701]

21 hours ago, Josheb said:

Since creation started out as a manifestation of God's inherent goodness the two are not mutually exclusive. The world God created was inherently good. In the language of scripture, it was not perished, it was not corrupt. It was, however, perishABLE, it was corruptIBLE, and as a consequence of one man's disobedience it became corruptED.

I didn't mean that they were mutually exclusive, simply that they are distinct.

God is good in a way in which anything else that is good is not.  He simply IS good - eternal goodness personified.  Anything that has been created "good" is a goodness derived from God's goodness and less than his goodness.  For example, the "ability" to become corrupt renders a "goodness" less than that which is eternally and immutably perfect in goodness.

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Hmmm.... so there is a place in scripture that explicitly about Jesus but it doesn't apply to another scripture about Jesus. I disagree.

 

I meant that the other Scripture (Phil. 2) does not address the subject under discussion.  All Scriptures about Jesus have a connection with each other, but they do not all address the same aspects of his person or life.

 

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But the point is moot because you've agreed Jesus is good and always has been. 

This then is sufficient warrant to go back to the previous post and amend it to reflect these scriptural truths. 

 

I'm unsure what you think I need to amend (except perhaps that my use of "inherent" was slightly careless - I have tried to address this in my first point).

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep. I think the salient point is that Jesus' words don't apply to himself if goodness is construed as the rich young ruler means them. God says the pre-disobedient creation, the pre-disobedient earth, the pre-disobedient world (the two are not the same thing), and the two created creatures are "good" He is not speaking of a merely utilitarian goodness that is measured solely by the degree to which it accomplishes His goals.  God's morality is certainly utilitarian, but it is not merely utilitarian it is, as you noted, inherently good in all ways, whether they be ontological, existential, teleological, etc. The original goodness of creation is something no one after Genesis 3:7 has ever known (except Christ) or has any memory of. It's gone. 

But because Jesus is God and didn't stop being God just because he became incarnate for a brief moment in what we call time, and because he is the only sinless person to ever have lived a completely sinless life there is context to his statement, "No one is good except the God alone." Jesus is, in fact, good but his goodness has little to do with the goodness the rich young ruler knows. Jesus' goodness is not the goodness of the created creation; it is the goodness of his deity; it is an ontological, existential goodness that cannot ever be negated. 

But that would be waaaay over the rich young rulers head, far beyond his ability to comprehend. It would leave him in shame and without answer to the question he asked,

"What good thing shall I do that I might have life eternal?"

The man has no idea he's asserting a works-based system. He has no idea no work can accomplish anything infinite, especially not eternal life. He has no clue he's a sinner. He has no clue his very existence is an offence to God! It's doubtful he truly understands the degree of grace extended to him sufficient to let him draw enough breath to even ask that thoroughly misguided question. And unless he comprehended the nature of Christ - the anointed one of God who is God standing right in front of him - it's doubtful he understood Jesus' answer. And if he did understand the fact the fulness of the deity stood bodily before him then the sadness and grief he felt walking away was incredible - it goes all the way back to that moment in Eden when Adam realized what he'd done and what had happened, and the utter irretrievable loss therein. It is akin to Peter's epiphany in Luke 5:8.

"Depart from me for a sinful man am I."

or those spoke by Isaiah, 

"Woe is me, for I am ruined!" 

I wonder sometimes how many truly understand how wretched it must have felt for God incarnate to walk among us and just how much love, mercy, compassion and grace was bestowed upon us with every step he took and what it means to lay aside the claim of equality, take on the form of a bondservant, and appear as a human. Or, conversely, to experience the true nobility of God's finest creation: a creature made in His own image because only Jesus did so sinlessly. 

It is truly amazing. 

This is the Lord we serve.

 

 

.

Excellent post!

[Alive]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yep. I think the salient point is that Jesus' words don't apply to himself if goodness is construed as the rich young ruler means them. God says the pre-disobedient creation, the pre-disobedient earth, the pre-disobedient world (the two are not the same thing), and the two created creatures are "good" He is not speaking of a merely utilitarian goodness that is measured solely by the degree to which it accomplishes His goals.  God's morality is certainly utilitarian, but it is not merely utilitarian it is, as you noted, inherently good in all ways, whether they be ontological, existential, teleological, etc. The original goodness of creation is something no one after Genesis 3:7 has ever known (except Christ) or has any memory of. It's gone. 

But because Jesus is God and didn't stop being God just because he became incarnate for a brief moment in what we call time, and because he is the only sinless person to ever have lived a completely sinless life there is context to his statement, "No one is good except the God alone." Jesus is, in fact, good but his goodness has little to do with the goodness the rich young ruler knows. Jesus' goodness is not the goodness of the created creation; it is the goodness of his deity; it is an ontological, existential goodness that cannot ever be negated. 

But that would be waaaay over the rich young rulers head, far beyond his ability to comprehend. It would leave him in shame and without answer to the question he asked,

"What good thing shall I do that I might have life eternal?"

The man has no idea he's asserting a works-based system. He has no idea no work can accomplish anything infinite, especially not eternal life. He has no clue he's a sinner. He has no clue his very existence is an offence to God! It's doubtful he truly understands the degree of grace extended to him sufficient to let him draw enough breath to even ask that thoroughly misguided question. And unless he comprehended the nature of Christ - the anointed one of God who is God standing right in front of him - it's doubtful he understood Jesus' answer. And if he did understand the fact the fulness of the deity stood bodily before him then the sadness and grief he felt walking away was incredible - it goes all the way back to that moment in Eden when Adam realized what he'd done and what had happened, and the utter irretrievable loss therein. It is akin to Peter's epiphany in Luke 5:8.

"Depart from me for a sinful man am I."

or those spoke by Isaiah, 

"Woe is me, for I am ruined!" 

I wonder sometimes how many truly understand how wretched it must have felt for God incarnate to walk among us and just how much love, mercy, compassion and grace was bestowed upon us with every step he took and what it means to lay aside the claim of equality, take on the form of a bondservant, and appear as a human. Or, conversely, to experience the true nobility of God's finest creation: a creature made in His own image because only Jesus did so sinlessly. 

It is truly amazing. 

This is the Lord we serve.

 

 

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Amen and amen....I have considered also, that what augmented the pain our Lord must have felt, was the fact that he was clothed with an earthen vessel like ours that was subject to all of the assaults possible on that vessel, to entice.

The stress related to His humanity can't be fathomed by myself. I think the epitome of that may have been in the garden that night.....and yet without sin.

Without this Redeemer, there was no hope of being reunited with our Creator in fellowship and harmony of being.

 

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Two false dichotomies. Scripture and theology are not mutually exclusive conditions and neither are God and the Son. 

Shalom, Josheb. (What does that name mean, anyway?)

Wrong. ONLY in your limited Theology are they "false dichotomies!" I'm frequently surprised by how WILDLY the fantasies of Theology can be DIVORCED from the truth of Scripture! Much of our "Theology" comes from the DARK AGES, largely when the RCC had total reign over those who called themselves "Christian."

And, what did these "brilliant" theologians do with those who disagreed with them? THEY BURNED THEM AT THE STAKE! What did they do with their writings? They piled them up in heaps TO BE BURNED LIKE BONFIRES! Many since the late 100s and early 200s and particularly in the 300s were anti-Semetic. What did they do with the people who claimed to be Jewish, even the Messianic Jews? THEY BURNED THEM, TOO! So RUTHLESSLY DID THEY WIPE OUT THEIR SCRIPTURES that now we have NO extant copies of the Aramaic Bibles (other than what is being written today)! That's why our oldest copies of the New Testament are all in GREEK (and, of course, in LATIN)!

No, theology doesn't have that good of a track record when it comes to keeping up with the Scriptures.

Second, there IS a difference between God (Yeshua`s Father) and the Son of God (Yeshua` the Messiah Himself). Just because YOU can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist! I'm always amazed at how MYOPIC people can be about things they can't accept! To whom was Yeshua` praying? HIMSELF?! If He's God, then what would be the need for God to pray to God? And, if you think He was only praying to the Father as an example to the disciples, is that true when HE WAS ALONE, PRAYING TO HIS FATHER?!

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Fail.

Yes, you have!

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

To be the "right hand" of a ruler was to have all of the power and authority of that ruler. It was not a place of rest; it was a place of power and authority. David rested in the power and authority of God to save where, according to Psalm 16 there are pleasures forever. Psalm 138 the right hand is extended in wrath (not rest). It is a place of exaltation according to Acts 2:32-33.Romans 8:33 reports it as a place of intercession.

You're all over the board with this analogy! Learn this: an analogy is ONLY adequate for the literary use it was intended. If you try to extend an analogy to another scenario, except in the case where it is SPECIFICALLY stated to be applicable to the new scenario, the analogy is DOOMED to break down! IT DOESN'T WORK! You OBVIOUSLY have not looked up how the "right hand" is used in each one of these Scripture locations. Sometimes, a person is said to be AT God's right hand; sometimes, a person is said to BE God's right hand; sometimes, the passage is talking about GOD being at someone else's right hand! Acts 2:32-33 talks about Yeshua` being EXALTED BY (not TO) God's right hand!

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

Exodus 15:4-6
Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea.  The deeps cover them; They went down into the depths like a stone.  Your right hand, O LORD, is majestic in power, Your right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.

What'd you do, just look up all occurrences of "hand" or "right hand?" This is a FINE example! I LOVE the account of what God did to Pharaoh and his army, staring out of the pillar of smoke with His fiery eyes at them during the night, popping off their chariot wheels, and then allowing the waters to suddenly clap back over them, burying them in water too deep through which to swim to the surface! However, this is a good example of the God that Yeshua` called "my Father."

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

2 Kings 15:19
 Pul, king of Assyria, came against the land, and Menahem gave Pul a thousand talents of silver so that his hand might be with him to strengthen the kingdom under his rule.

So, Menahem had to pay for Pul to give him a hand to strengthen his rule. Well, ... so?

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

1 Chronicles 29:10-13
 So David blessed the LORD in the sight of all the assembly; and David said, "Blessed are You, O LORD God of Israel our father, forever and ever.  "Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, indeed everything that is in the heavens and the earth; Yours is the dominion, O LORD, and You exalt Yourself as head over all.  "Both riches and honor come from You, and You rule over all, and in Your hand is power and might; and it lies in Your hand to make great and to strengthen everyone.  "Now therefore, our God, we thank You, and praise Your glorious name.

And, STILL David is God's choice for king! The same will be true for Yeshua`. You didn't quote 29:9:

1 Chronicles 29:6-9 (KJV)

6 Then the chief of the fathers and princes of the tribes of Israel, and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, with the rulers of the king's work, offered willingly, 7 And gave for the service of the house of God of gold five thousand talents and ten thousand drams, and of silver ten thousand talents, and of brass eighteen thousand talents, and one hundred thousand talents of iron. 8 And they with whom preciousstones were found gave them to the treasure of the house of the LORD, by the hand of Jehiel the Gershonite. 9 Then the people rejoiced, for that they offered willingly, because with perfect heart they offered willingly to the LORD: and David the king also rejoiced with great joy.

 

6 hours ago, Josheb said:

I see. There is a king - someone born a king - who does not rule because those he rules did not accept him. 

He was not supposed to be made king of Israel. That is what the Jews thought but they were wrong. God never wanted Israel to have a king like other nations. He was to be their king (1 Sam. 8), and when God oathed a descendant to sit endlessly on David's thrown he was speaking of the resurrection of His Son, not an earthly rule. This is plainly stated in Acts 2:30-31. 

And before he was born king, he [was] the power and wisdom of God by whom, through whom, and for whom the creation was created. Being an earthly king is a step down. 

At this point, I'll be honest, you ANGERED ME so completely, that I wanted to tear into you for LYING! I had to settle down before I could think straight to answer you! First, you have LIED against God Himself, LYING about Him, and about His Son! This was by far the worst! But, the second reason I was SO ANGRY was that you were attempting to take other believers down with you! I had to remind myself that you're not the instigator of the lies; you're merely a propagator of the lies.

You've based this ridiculous idea on a BAD interpretation of 1 Samuel 8 without following through the WHOLE history. Here's a short summary:

1 Samuel 8:1-22 (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 Now the name of his firstborn was Joel; and the name of his second, Abiah: they were judges in Beersheba. 3 And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, 5 And said unto him,

"Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations."

6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, "Give us a king to judge us." And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. 7 And the LORD said unto Samuel,

"Hearken (Listen) unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt even unto this day, wherewith they have forsaken me, and served other gods, so do they also unto thee. 9 Now therefore hearken (listen) unto their voice: howbeit yet protest solemnly unto them, and shew them the manner of the king that shall reign over them."

10 And Samuel told all the words of the LORD unto the people that asked of him a king. 11 And he said,

"This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you: He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. 12 And he will appoint him captains over thousands, and captains over fifties; and will set them to ear his ground, and to reap his harvest, and to make his instruments of war, and instruments of his chariots. 13 And he will take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. 14 And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. 15 And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give to his officers, and to his servants. 16 And he will take your menservants, and your maidservants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to his work. 17 He will take the tenth of your sheep: and ye shall be his servants. 18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day."

19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said,

"Nay; but we will have a king over us; 20 That we also may be like all the nations; and that our king may judge us, and go out before us, and fight our battles."

21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he rehearsed them in the ears of the LORD. 22 And the LORD said to Samuel,

"Hearken (Listen) unto their voice, and make them a king."

And Samuel said unto the men of Israel,

"Go ye every man unto his city."

Yes, they first had to endure the reign of Sha`uwl ("Saul," his name means "asked for"), who started out humble but then got too big for his britches. Look at how he starts:

1 Samuel 9:15-17 (KJV)

15 Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear a day before Saul came, saying, 

16 "To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him to be captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me."

17 And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him,

"Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people."

1 Samuel 10:1 (KJV)

1 Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, 

"Is it not because the LORD hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?"

In so anointing him, Sh'mu'el ("Samuel") made him a "mashiyach" - a "messiah" - a "christ!"

1 Samuel 10:17-26 (KJV)

17 And Samuel called the people together unto the LORD to Mizpeh; 18 And said unto the children of Israel,

"Thus saith the LORD God of Israel,

"'I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all kingdoms, and of them that oppressed you: 19 And ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and ye have said unto him, "Nay, but set a king over us." Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.'"

20 And when Samuel had caused all the tribes of Israel to come near, the tribe of Benjamin was taken. 21 When he had caused the tribe of Benjamin to come near by their families, the family of Matri was taken, and Saul the son of Kish was taken: and when they sought him, he could not be found. 22 Therefore they inquired of the LORD further, if the man should yet come thither. And the LORD answered,

"Behold, he hath hid himself among the stuff."

23 And they ran and fetched him thence: and when he stood among the people, he was higher than any of the people from his shoulders and upward. 24 And Samuel said to all the people,

"See ye him whom the LORD hath chosen, that there is none like him among all the people?"

And all the people shouted, and said,

"God save the king!"

25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book (1 Samuel), and laid it up before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house. 26 And Saul also went home to Gibeah; and there went with him a band of men, whose hearts God had touched.

1 Samuel 11:14-15 (KJV)

14 Then said Samuel to the people,

"Come, and let us go to Gilgal, and renew the kingdom there."

15 And all the people went to Gilgal; and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal; and there they sacrificed sacrifices of peace offerings before the LORD; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.

Listen to Sh'mu'el at the end of his leadership and the beginning of Sha'uwl's:

1 Samuel 12:1- (KJV)

1 And Samuel said unto all Israel,

"Behold, I have hearkened unto your voice in all that ye said unto me, and have made a king over you. 2 And now, behold, the king walketh before you: and I am old and grayheaded; and, behold, my sons are with you: and I have walked before you from my childhood unto this day. 3 Behold, here I am: witness against me before the LORD, and before his anointed ("Saul"): whose ox have I taken? or whose ass have I taken? or whom have I defrauded? whom have I oppressed? or of whose hand have I received any bribe to blind mine eyes therewith? and I will restore it you."

4 And they said,

"Thou hast not defrauded us, nor oppressed us, neither hast thou taken ought of any man's hand."

5 And he said unto them,

"The LORD is witness against you, and his anointed is witness this day, that ye have not found ought in my hand."

And they answered, 

"He is witness."

6 And Samuel said unto the people, 

"It is the LORD that advanced Moses and Aaron, and that brought your fathers up out of the land of Egypt. 7Now therefore stand still, that I may reason with you before the LORD of all the righteous acts of the LORD, which he did to you and to your fathers. 8When Jacob was come into Egypt, and your fathers cried unto the LORD, then the LORD sent Moses and Aaron, which brought forth your fathers out of Egypt, and made them dwell in this place. 9And when they forgat the LORD their God, he sold them into the hand of Sisera, captain of the host of Hazor, and into the hand of the Philistines, and into the hand of the king of Moab, and they fought against them. 10 And they cried unto the LORD, and said,

"'We have sinned, because we have forsaken the LORD, and have served Baalim and Ashtaroth: but now deliver us out of the hand of our enemies, and we will serve thee.' 

11 "And the LORD sent Jerubbaal, and Bedan, and Jephthah, and Samuel, and delivered you out of the hand of your enemies on every side, and ye dwelled safe.

12 "And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, 'Nay; but a king shall reign over us': when the LORD your God was your king. 

13 "Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you. 14 If ye will fear the LORD, and serve him, and obey his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth over you continue following the LORD your God: 15 But if ye will not obey the voice of the LORD, but rebel against the commandment of the LORD, then shall the hand of the LORD be against you, as it was against your fathers. 16 Now therefore stand and see this great thing, which the LORD will do before your eyes. 17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and rain; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king."

18 So Samuel called unto the LORD; and the LORD sent thunder and rain that day: and all the people greatly feared the LORD and Samuel.

19 And all the people said unto Samuel,

"Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king."

20 And Samuel said unto the people,

"Fear not: ye have done all this wickedness: yet turn not aside from following the LORD, but serve the LORD with all your heart; 21 And turn ye not aside: for then should ye go after vain things, which cannot profit nor deliver; for they are vain. 22 For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people. 23 Moreover as for me, God forbid that I should sin against the LORD in ceasing to pray for you: but I will teach you the good and the right way: 24 Only fear the LORD, and serve him in truth with all your heart: for consider how great things he hath done for you. 25 But if ye shall still do wickedly, ye shall be consumed, both ye and your king."

Now, look at how he ended:

1 Samuel 13:8-14 (KJV)

8 And he (Saul) tarried seven days, according to the set time that Samuel had appointed: but Samuel came not to Gilgal; and the people were scattered from him. 9 And Saul said,

"Bring hither a burnt offering to me, and peace offerings."

And he offered the burnt offering.

10 And it came to pass, that as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, behold, Samuel came; and Saul went out to meet him, that he might salute him. 11And Samuel said,

"What hast thou done?"

And Saul said,

"Because I saw that the people were scattered from me, and that thou camest not within the days appointed, and that the Philistines gathered themselves together at Michmash; 12 Therefore said I, 'The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD': I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering."

13 And Samuel said to Saul,

"Thou hast done foolishly: thou hast not kept the commandment of the LORD thy God, which he commanded thee: for now would the LORD have established thy kingdom upon Israel for ever. 14 But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee."

Later, we read,

1 Samuel 16:1-13 (KJV)

1 And the LORD said unto Samuel,

"How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons."

2 And Samuel said,

"How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me."

And the LORD said,

"Take an heifer with thee, and say, 'I am come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee."

4 And Samuel did that which the LORD spake, and came to Bethlehem. And the elders of the town trembled at his coming, and said,

"Comest thou peaceably?"

5 And he said,

"Peaceably: I am come to sacrifice unto the LORD: sanctify yourselves, and come with me to the sacrifice."

And he sanctified Jesse and his sons, and called them to the sacrifice.

6 And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said,

"Surely the LORD'S anointed is before him."

7 But the LORD said unto Samuel,

"Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart."

8 Then Jesse called Abinadab, and made him pass before Samuel. And he said,

"Neither hath the LORD chosen this."

9 Then Jesse made Shammah to pass by. And he said,

"Neither hath the LORD chosen this."

10 Again, Jesse made seven of his sons to pass before Samuel. And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"The LORD hath not chosen these."

11 And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"Are here all thy children?"

And he said,

"There remaineth yet the youngest, and, behold, he keepeth the sheep."

And Samuel said unto Jesse,

"Send and fetch him: for we will not sit down till he come hither."

12 And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said,

"Arise, anoint him: for this is he."

13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

Then, we read of the Davidic Covenant that God made with David and his "seed" after him (which was NOT Shlomoh or "Solomon").

***

NOW, let's go back to Gavri'el's words to Miryam, stating the prophecy that hinged upon the Davidic Covenant found in both 2 Samuel 7 and 1 Chronicles 17:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

 30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (English: pronounced "Yay-soos" = Greek: Ieesous = Hebrew: Yeeshuwa`). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end!" 

So, when you said, "He was not supposed to be made king of Israel. That is what the Jews thought but they were wrong," that is a bald-faced LIE! And, since this was a word that GOD sent to Miryam through the messenger Gavri'el, you're LYING about what GOD said, not just what Gavri'el said!

Now, let's look at Acts 2:30-33 in context, shall we?

Acts 2:30-33 (KJV)

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them,

"Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.' (Joel 2:28-32)

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth (Yeshua` Natsaretiy), a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25 For David speaketh concerning him,

'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul (air-breathing creature) in hell (the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay). 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.'

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul (air-breathing creature) was not left in hell (the grave), neither his flesh (physical meat) did see corruption (decay). 32 This Jesus (Yeshua`) hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being BY the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,

'The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.' 

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus (Yeshua`), whom ye have crucified, both Lord (Master) and Christ (Messiah, the Anointed to be King)!"

How will God make Yeshua`s foes His footstool? By sending Him back to earth to reign! When will God do this? At Yeshua`s SECOND COMING!

Listen to Yeshua`s OWN WORDS about His OWN COMING!

Matthew 25:31-34 (KJV)

31 "WHEN the Son of man shall come in his glory (brightness), and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory (brightness): 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 "THEN shall the King say unto them on his right hand,

"'Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: ..."

This is a WAR TRIBUNAL He shall hold after He wins at Har-Megiddow ("Armageddon"), the "Hill (or Tel) of Megiddow," the final battle staged in the plain of Gei-Yizr`e'l ("Valley of Jezreel") as He is taking back what is His, the Land of Israel! This will occur AT THE BEGINNING OF HIS REIGN! Those on His right hand side will be just then INHERITING the kingdom!

Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV)

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way (road) of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon (Har-Megiddow or Tel Megiddo, southeast of Haifa, Israel).

 

FOLLOW GOD'S WORD, not your "theological theories!"

[Retrobyter]

On 7/14/2020 at 2:59 PM, Alive said:

Amen and amen....I have considered also, that what augmented the pain our Lord must have felt, was the fact that he was clothed with an earthen vessel like ours that was subject to all of the assaults possible on that vessel, to entice.

The stress related to His humanity can't be fathomed by myself. I think the epitome of that may have been in the garden that night.....and yet without sin.

Without this Redeemer, there was no hope of being reunited with our Creator in fellowship and harmony of being.

Shalom, Alive.

Well, contrary to this popular mistake, Yeshua` was NOT "clothed with an earthen vessel like ours." The Word BECAME flesh!

John 1:1-18 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

It may SEEM like a subtle distinction, but it has WIDE-RANGING implications and affects MUCH! See, the thing you guys, with your HIGHFALUTING words and ENORMOUS assumptions, fail to see is that He is STILL flesh!

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

When He ascended to His Father shortly thereafter, He was STILL flesh! He shall return in the flesh!

Acts 1:6-11 (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven (toward the sky) as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven (into the sky)? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven (into the sky), shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven (into the sky)."

Thus, we await His BODILY return!

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Just a couple of things Roy, 

First, the derision and appeals to ridicule will have to stop if conversation is the desired goal.

Shalom, anyway, Josheb.

First, I was just honestly curious of how you decided on the name "Josheb."

Second, I believe ALL "theology," defined as the "study of God and religious beliefs," and in more detail called "religious beliefs and theory when systematically developed," particularly in a formal way, is both limiting and limited.

Within the field of systematic theology, one has the categories of ...

Theology Proper = the study of the character of God
Angelology = the study of angels
Biblical Theology = the study of the Bible
Christology = the study of Christ
Ecclesiology = the study of the church
Eschatology = the study of the end times
Hamartiology = the study of sin
Pneumatology = the study of the Holy Spirit
Soteriology = the study of salvation
Theological anthropology = the study of the nature of humanity

All of these "studies" lock one in to a particular viewpoint on that category. Once one accepts that particular viewpoint, one is "locked in a box" of beliefs with little to no chance of expanding one's view on that category!

The TRUE irony is that many of these words are susceptible to historical error.

Thus, this is true for ALL those who trust to theology! I was neither trying to "deride" you nor "to appeal to ridicule" you. I was not attacking you here; I was attacking the subject of theology!

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Second, I'm not reading walls of text. I am one prone to lengthy posts myself so I understand there's a lot to be said, but that post won't be read.

This is unfortunate, for the texts were chosen to support a particular conclusion. If you won't read the proof, then you will be unable to reason through the proof to the correct conclusion. (The statement was made during Watergate, "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." [Roy S. Durstine, 1945] Don't follow his lead.) The history is biblical, and God's part in each event is irrefutable.

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Lastly, it is disingenuous to wish people peace and love and then attack them. 

Well, that's just simply not true. Haven't you ever heard of "tough love?" Sometimes, it's MORE loving to show a loved one when he or she is wrong.

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Repair those conditions and I [will] at least read what's post[ed]; maybe reply. Otherwise, we're done and you're free to post as you like without further response from me. 

It did not work. 

Yes, it did. You just don't know HOW ANGRY I was!

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Here's something for you to consider that might work to help with the self-regulation of emotion: 

• Something is false when it is factually incorrect. 
• A false statement is a mistake if it is said/written unintentionally, unwittingly, or otherwise unknowingly.
• A lie is a falsehood said or written with deliberate intent to deceive.

And since complete strangers posting over the internet hundred, maybe thousands of miles apart from one another have no idea what is in the heart or mind or intend of others most forum prohibit posters calling each other liars or making claims of lies and intentional deceit. 

So try not to judge your brothers and sisters as not willfully trying to deceive you. 

Let's make this simple: The opposite of "true" is "false." The opposite of "truth" is a "falsehood," also called a "lie." Mistake or intentional, the falsehood is still a lie; the one who told the lie may not be aware of the fact that he or she told a lie. However, mistakenly told or purposely told often makes little difference to the one deceived by the lie.

That's what I meant by saying you were merely a "propagator" of the lie; passing it on to another; I realized that you are NOT the "instigator," the one through whom the lie originated. Thus, I will NOT judge you, my brother; there's ONE who intercedes for you! I merely point out the lie.

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

More fundamentally: you still have the problem of imposing the OT on the NT and not the other way around. The cart is before the horse. The NT is the newer revelation. The OT informs the NT, and the NT interprets the OT. That which was veiled in the Old is revealed in the New. It will not matter what you or anyone else posts if they get that very simple, real, irrefutable principle incorrect. No amount of anger, labeling, or fallacy will change that fact.

Again, you are DEFLECTING from the error, IGNORING the lie! Let me state it again:

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

So, when you said, "He was not supposed to be made king of Israel. That is what the Jews thought but they were wrong. God never wanted Israel to have a king like other nations," what you said was in DIRECT OPPOSITION to what God said through His messenger, Gavri'el!

Of two things, P and ~P, exactly one is true. Since God's Word (P) is true, then what you said (~P) is false! You told a falsehood. You told a lie. I'm glad that you said it was not intentional, but the error still remains.

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Josheb.

I'm not going to quote your last post because, in all you wrote, you would not admit to telling a lie, a falsehood, or even making a mistake!

I cannot argue an op-relevant point with you until we can establish some point of connection, some agreement on a particular level.

The truth is quite simple: NO HUMAN INPUT, not even that of the churches, will make the world any better. We await the return of Yeshua` haMashiyach (Jesus the Christ) and NEED His return! HIS input will make the difference in the course of this world.

That said, the philosophy behind postmillennialism is fundamentally flawed from the beginning, and premillennialism is fundamentally NEEDED by all.

The Kingdom of God is NOT currently active; the Kingdom of God will begin with the King's physical presence. When He returns, "THEN will He sit upon the throne of His glory!" We know this because...

(1) a King is to be a judge, (1 Samuel 8:6)
(2) God the Father has committed all judgment to the Son of God, Yeshua` ("Jesus"), (John 5:22)
(3) the Kingdom as promised begins with the PHYSICAL return of the Son of God, Yeshua`, (Matthew 25:31) and
(4) that Kingdom will be over the house of Jacob and last forever without end. (Luke 1:33)

We CAN consider ourselves to be of those who will comprise His Kingdom as His "subjects" right now, but we are NOT "subjects" quite yet. We CAN also call ourselves, as Paul did, "sundouloi" or "co-slaves," right now.