Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[Justin Adams]

17 minutes ago, ENOCH2010 said:

If the devil is bound now why is there so much evil in the world? 

Gen 3. Gen 6. Babel scattering of the nations. Deut 32 and the territorial spirits that the Resurrection and Pentecost gave notice to. There is a LOT going on and we are maybe twiddling our thumbs, or playing the fiddle whilst the church burns from little teaching, false teaching and men in bed with the various adversaries. The evil ones have had their sentence passed on them. Psalm 82, "and you shall all die like men."

It is already, but not just yet...

Edited July 6, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Alive]

I would like to pose a question to the context of postmillennialism--the op.

:-)

How do adherents view the text:

ESV

Matt. 24:37 jFor as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

 

Luke 17:26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.

NASB

 

Matt. 24:37 “For 1the acoming of the Son of Man will be bjust like the days of Noah.

 

Luke 17:26 “aAnd just as it happened bin the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

 

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

In the days of Noah it was the ones taken away by the flood who died and were destroyed. It was the ones who remained on earth who continued to live in a covenant relationship with God. This implies those taken away by the tribulation will be destroyed and those remaining (whether on a roof or working in a field) will survive and continue living in a covenant relationship with God. It most certainly does not imply a rapture. Someone would have to twist the story of "the days of Noah" substantively to get a rapture out of it. In the days of Noah those in an already-existing covenant relationship were told, knew of,  anticipated, and recognized when God was coming in judgment and it happened within their lifetime. They emerged from the destruction in God's victory (not one of their own doing) having been kept safe on earth. 

 

Is there some other aspect of those verses about which the inquiry is made?

No--that covers it...I did not have the rapture in mind, but rather the description of sins, etc.

In the days of Noah, nearly all of humanity were living in sin and disloyalty.

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Well.... not "nearly all..." It was all. Genesis 6:5 states quite bluntly God looked down on the earth and saw that every thought of all humanity was only evil all the time. Despite that condition he chose Noah, who was deemed by God a righteous man, blameless in his time (before the Law of Moses was given). Noah walked with God (vs. 6:9). His walking with God did not mean he was sinless any more than your walk or my walk with God means we are sinless. We understand this because the first thing Noah did when the flood subsided was get drunk and pass out. His son sodomized him in that drunken state and his other sons did nothing to intervene (Gen. 9:20-24). When I measure any of that conduct by the whole of scripture each and every one of those men prove sinful and disloyal. 

 

It was by grace they were saved from the flood through faith and not of themselves. 

Yes--you are correct of course--I was being liberal with my language.

 

[JAG**]

44 minutes ago, Josheb said:

``

 

Yes, I own and have read the book. Gentry and the full-prets had an ongoing debate in which

the full-prets believed he would be persuaded but that has not proved the case. Same

things with Bahnsen. I'm not as impressed with Mathison's writings. I don't find him

as articulate or as persuasive (but I'm glad he's on "our" side ). 

Ultimately I don't think appeals to extra-biblical sources are the best choice for forum

discourse. We can recommend their articles and books as additional information sources

but what should be persuasive - most persuasive - is correctly-rendered scripture.

You and I are familiar with the claim some make of reading scripture literally when

what is really done is literalistically. One poster has already asserted

postmillennialism cannot be garnered from a plain reading of scripture and can

only be accomplished by presuming it upon scripture. 

This is said in spite of the evidence already posted to the contrary (Ps. 110:1). 

So we must all agree to examine scripture exegetically and not do so competitively

with each defending our respective eschatologies. Very difficult. Especially if/when

you or I point out when something is being read eisegetically, and not literally or

exegetically. We should all be willing and able to agree to the basics of exegesis.

The basics don't very from hermeneutic to hermeneutic. I recently posted a list of

about twelve of the basics to which we can all agree, or should be able to agree. If

we don't agree how to handle scripture there will be no persuasive conversation.

The best we could hope for is to inform but not persuade. I'll post a list of the

basics if you like. That way everyone, no matter their eschatology can refer to the

list and self-evaluate and other-evaluate and hopefully find some agreement,

even if in the end we agree to disagree. 

Personally, I think the best argument for Postmillennialism comes from an

Amillennialist! Kim Riddlebarger did such an excellent job of exegesis that any

and all can hold his prowess in esteem. He simply reached a couple of incorrect

conclusions . He does so simply because he does not perceive history in the

same way the Postmil does: the gospel has overcome every single competitor it

has ever encountered and will continue to do so. It is common practice to focus

on the problems and not the successes; common practice to focus on the latest

pandemic or war and not the power of God, Christ, the Spirit, the gospel, or the

Church.  If we truly acted in accordance with the belief God is almighty, Christ

has all authority, the Spirit is empowering, the gospel will be taken to all

nations, and the Church will not be prevailed over not only would this world

look much different but only one outcome is possible. 

The problem is us. Many do not act in a manner consistent with our beliefs.

If you think the Church is defeated then you'll act that way. If you think the

Church is gonna be defeated you'll act that way. If you think the Church will

prevail then you'll act that way. And that is the essence of what will play out

in the discussion of this op. 

 

``

 

Josheb,

Thanks for all that. 

I read it all carefully.

I'll tell you where I am with regard to "discussing" Eschatology in threads. 

I wouldn't even consider it. I've seen to many threads on Eschatology and it

ends up with huge Data Dumps and with stuff like "So then you don't believe God"

or "So then you don't believe the Bible."  So what I do is simply  recommend books

and I leave the "creation of interest" to the Holy Spirit. But then that's just me.

People are different. You have a different approach than I do. I wish you the best.

But this subject is highly charged with emotion and on the Internet At Large you

will NOT get a reasonable reception for your Christian Eschatological views.

Nor will you get reasonable discussion on the Internet At large. You will be told that

"You disagree with God" and "You don't believe the Bible."  I wrote my Opening Post

in such a way that if anyone is interested in a personal study of Postmillennialism 

they now know where to go to start their personal study. If they have no personal

interest in Postmillennialism they will just ignore the Opening Post and go on to

other subjects more interesting to them at this time. 

My personal opinion is that personal private study is the best way to approach getting

people interested in this subject. That is, to get them to buy and read books in the privacy

of their own office or study. 

I know you disagree with that and that you like to discuss this subject in threads.

I wish you well as you do this if it works out where you do this. I have an idea

that you might like. You have a lot of good ideas about Christian Eschatology.

Maybe you could write an Opening Post and start a thread that would be specifically

on your area of interest. You can also keep an eye on this thread and "see where it goes."

You can easily post in two threads. If you decide to do that, be sure to give me the link

here in this thread so I can "read along." 

Thank  you again for your interest in this thread and for your very helpful comments.

JAG

 

 

``

[Alive]

5 minutes ago, Roar said:

I told everyone about the denial of basic Christain beliefs being allowed to be taught here on this forum.

Which basic beliefs do you mean, @Roar?

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, Roar said:

 

The fact that the Bible is the Holy Word of God and it being denied by somes' claims here.

I didn't see where someone did that--can you show me?

[Justin Adams]

25 minutes ago, Roar said:

Really, Justin Adams? I really had a higher opinion of your understanding. I am very disapointed.

I have over the years studied all the various eschaton ideas. None of them worked without cutting and spicing various verses out of context. There are so many differing views and few will see the verses as they were first presented to the actual reader for whom they were penned. We often make the mistake of thinking somehow inspiration is an EVENT rather than a Progressing revelation in a Providential working out. Inspiration of the various scriptures took centuries and those that study the manuscripts can detect the varied forms, additions and alterations until it all got to the point God expected with the human authors He had chosen. He was well aware of and with their original worldviews which often color the text.

John was very fond of gematria, figures of speech and requoted/repurposed many old prophesies. He was quite the wordsmith and very talented. His Revelation is mostly a visionary inspired apocalypse. It is not literal in many ways and the forms and expressions often should not be taken literally. His vision of the birth of Yeshua is an actual star chart (observable in the heavens) and has been verified by modern astronomy experts. Virgo in the Constellation Leo and the twelve stars with the moon partly clothing her is EXACTLY 3Bc on September 11th. (I have pictures if needed). It was an 80 minute widow when Christ was born. Exact. John saw this and knew what it meant. Just as he stated. Many others would also have seen this as there were no cell phones and TV, the heavens were their pastimes and had to be carefully observed to know the seasons etc. No it was NOT astrology, it was astronomy and many Jewish temples had the Zodiac.

Please read my above post carefully. I have no eschaton to peddle. None at all. Darby and his ilk were a blight and have misled so many people over the years.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Justin Adams

[ENOCH2010]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Great question. Let's first decide whether or not we agree with scripture. Let's first decide whether we measure scripture by our perceptions of the world, or whether we measure the world and our perceptions by scripture. 

The scripture states, 

Jude 1:5-7  
"Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.  And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,  just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

 

So Jude wrote those called by God, beloved by God, and kept for Christ and he stated God has kept (past-tense) those angels who didn't keep their own domain in eternal bonds. 

That is what the verse states. 

That is not what I made the verse say apart from what it states. 

I have not added, nor subtracted, anything from the verse. 

Do you, Enoch2010, believe what the verse states? 

 

Because we're not going to be able to answer the question you ask if scripture is not first believed. 

Scripture states satan is bound and has been bound at least as far back as the first century when Jude wrote to the Church (if not further back). Whatever evil exists in the world occurs within that context and we should discuss how and why that is and how and why evil exists when satan is kept in eternal bonds under darkness. We won't be able to discuss that if the eternal bonds in darkness are denied (or the verse is interpreted to say something it does not state). 

 

 

.

I think the angels that left their first estate are locked away but the scripture doesn't say satan is with them.

[JAG**]

On 7/4/2020 at 12:06 PM, JAG** said:

The subject is Christian Eschatology.
Eschatology is about the future of Humanity.
There are 4 different major views of Christian Eschatology {listed below}.
Postmillennialism is the only one of the 4 that predicts a bright cheerful future
here on this Earth before human history ends.

So the question is raised:

What does the future hold for the Christian Church and the Human Race
here on planet Earth? The answer is the Human Race has a magnificent
optimistic bright cheerful future.

The world will eventually become a Christian world. This will require many
millenniums yet to come as human history rolls forward. This does not
mean that every single person on Earth will become a Christian, rather
it means that the human race, as a race, will be saved and the vast
overwhelming majority of human beings will, in the far off future,
become Christian.

The Lord Jesus' Great Commission To His Christian Church is about
His Church Christianizing the world:

The Lord Jesus told His disciples at the end of Matthew's gospel chapter
28 to go and make disciples of all the nations. His disciples needed power
to accomplish this great task. The Lord Jesus told them what this power
was. He said "all authority in Heaven and on Earth has been given to me,
therefore go and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to obey
all that I have commanded you." Matthew 28:18-20

The Lord Jesus was serious when He gave His Christian Church her Great
Commission. His Great Commission is a command and not a suggestion.

Therefore His Great Commission to go and make disciples of all the nations
will be successfully accomplished before He returns to Earth to end human
history -- the world will eventually become Christian. "He must reign until
He has put all his enemies under His feet." 1 Cor. 15:25
"For He (God) has put everything under His feet." 1 Cor. 15:27

The Lord Jesus right NOW is reigning as King over this entire world and He is
gradually incrementally Christianizing the entire world. Again, how long will this
take? It will take many many millenniums yet to unfold, but He will be victorious.
We must be patient. This is going to take a very long time.

Meanwhile . .

Unfortunately there is a lot of Doom and Gloom and Defeatism
out there inside 21st century Christendom .

Christendom holds and presents 4 major views of the future
of the Christian Church and the Human Race.

These 4 views are:
(1) Postmillennialism
(2) Amillennialism
(3) Premillennialism
(4) Dispensationalism

Of the 4 views only Postmillennialism presents an optimistic
bright cheerful victorious future for the Christian Church and
the Human Race here on Earth before the Lord returns.

This Post is presenting some general thoughts on
Postmillennialism and Postmillennialism's optimistic view of
the future.

Long live Christian optimism.

Large swaths of the Christian Church today are awash in
Gloom and Doom and in Defeatism passed off as being
spiritual, when in fact the Bible teaches that the Christian
Church will be victorious. I will build my Church, said the
Lord Jesus, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
Go and make disciples of all the nations, said the Lord
Jesus, because I have now been given all authority both
in Heaven and on Earth.

It is sad indeed that Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and
Dispensationalism repudiates the gospel victory theme of
the Bible in their modern eschatological speculations and
replaces this victory theme with a defeatist scheme of the
future of the Christian Church and Human race. This
paralyzes Christian cultural efforts and eliminates the
practical significance from the Christian worldview, and
gives Christians a sinful comfort in lethargy because all
this Defeatism and Doom and Gloom tends to justify
social and cultural irresponsibility. "Why polish brass
on a sinking ship", ask many misinformed Christians.

Here is an excellent definition of Postmillennialism:

"Postmillennialism holds that the Lord Jesus Christ established
His kingdom on earth through His preaching and redemptive
work in the first century and that He equips His church with the
gospel, empowers her by the Holy Spirit, and charges her with
the Great Commission to disciple all nations. Postmillennialism
expects that eventually the vast majority of men living will be
saved. Increasing gospel success will gradually produce a
time in history prior to Christ's return in which faith,
righteousness, peace, and prosperity will prevail in the
affairs of men and nations. After an extensive era of such
conditions the Lord will return visibly, bodily, and gloriously,
to end history with the general resurrection and the final
Judgment after which the eternal order follows."
___ Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry.

Christianity is slowly Christianizing the world.

Christianity started small in numbers. There was a time in the 1st century
at the very beginning of Christianity when the number of Christians in the
world was less than 12. Today, some 2000 years later, there is some 2.3
billion Christians in the world. We have a name for this. We call it progress.

America today has over 1300 Evangelical mega-churches with weekly
attendance of over 2000. The Roman Catholics have over 3000 churches
with a weekly attendance of over 2000. This is Christian progress in the world.

Christianity is growing like wildfire in the Global South for example in Africa.
There is a huge Christian Church in China. House Church.
.Christianity is huge in South Korea and in South America and Central America.
The American Christian Church is still a vibrant force in the World. All this is
Christian progress in the world.

■ The Lord Jesus "shall have dominion from sea to sea" Psalm 72:8
■ "The whole Earth will be filled with His glory." Psalm 72:19
■ "All the nations will call Him blessed." Psalm 72:17
■ The Lord Jesus really meant it, when He commanded His Christian
Church to "go and make disciples of all the nations." Matthew 28:19

"As of the year 2015, Christianity has more than 2.3 billion adherents,
out of about 7.5 billion people. The faith represents one-third of the
world's population and is the largest religion in the world, with the three
largest groups being the Catholic Church, Protestantism, and
the Eastern Orthodox Church."__wikipedia

At the end of human history , , ,
The Book Of Revelation says that there is a great multitude of the saved
from every nation, tribe, people and language and they are so numerous
that no one can count them.

"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one
could count from every nation, tribe, people, and language, standing
before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white
robes . . .and they cried out . . . Salvation belongs to our God who sits
on the throne and to the Lamb." Revelation 7:9-10

_________

 

The Lord Jesus. He Shall Have Dominion. Victory! 

____________

 

 

Miscellaneous Points:

* I am a Bible believing orthodox Postmillennialist.

* I am NOT a Full Preterist.

* Full Preterism is False.

* FYI, I am a Bible believing Protestant {Baptist.}

* I posted that up there only as  "food for thought."

* I do NOT argue Christian Eschatology in threads.

* I look forward to reading some of the responses  to the Opening Post.

God Bless.

JAG

 

``
 

 

For anyone interested in studying Postmillennialism  , , , 
Here below is a list of distinguished Postmillennialists:
Origen
Eusebius
Athanasius
Augustine
Daniel Whitby
Isaac Watts
The Wesley Brothers
Jonathan Edwards
William Carey
Robert Haldane
Archibald Alexander
A.A. Hodge
Charles Hodge
Albert Barnes
David Brown
Patrick Fairbairn
Richard C. Trench
J.A. Alexander
J.H. Thornwell
Robert L. Dabney
William G.T. Shedd
Augustus H. Strong
H.C.G. Moule
B.B. Warfield
O.T. Allis
J. Gresham Machen
John Murray
Loraine Boettner
J. Marcellus Kik
Greg L. Bahnsen
David Chilton
Rousas J. Rushdoony
_____________

Contemporary Postmillennialist Writers:
Reuben Alvarado
Curtis Crenshaw
John Jefferson Davis
Gary DeMar
J. Ligon Duncan lll
John R. deWitt
Kenneth L. Gentry Jr.
George Grant
Grover E. Gunn
Stephen J. Hayhow
Erroll Hulse
Douglas Kelly
Francis Nigel Lee
Peter J. Leithart
Donald Macleod
Keith A. Mathison
Iain Murray
Gary North
Stephen C. Perks
Willard Ramsey
Andrew Sandlin
Steve Schlissel
Norman Shepherd
R.C. Sproul
Ray R. Sutton
Kenneth G. Talbot
Jack Van Deventer
James West
Douglas Wilson
Colin Wright
Source:
He Shall Have Dominion
by Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry Jr,
pages 106-107

________



"Postmillennialism holds that the Lord Jesus Christ established
His kingdom on earth through His preaching and redemptive
work in the first century and that He equips His church with the
gospel, empowers her by the Holy Spirit, and charges her with
the Great Commission to disciple all nations. Postmillennialism
expects that eventually the vast majority of men living will be
saved. Increasing gospel success will gradually produce a
time in history prior to Christ's return in which faith,
righteousness, peace, and prosperity will prevail in the
affairs of men and nations. After an extensive era of such
conditions the Lord will return visibly, bodily, and gloriously,
to end history with the general resurrection and the final
Judgment after which the eternal order follows."
___ Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry.