The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return For The Rapture Of The Church

[Justin Adams]

12 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Praying and hoping for some kind of revival or maybe pockets of revival to happen first

I am fairly sure we will be given notice by the Lord when this 2nd coming is about to occur. He does not want any to be lost, so the 'imminent' ideas seem disingenuous and somewhat self serving. God is concerned with all human life so will not short circuit the real ending and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. There seems to be no 'early' pre trib rapture kind of thing leaving the rest behind to face the music. This is also a bit self serving and a little mercenary if you think about it. God is good. All the time, and does not have 'bad days' like we do.

[WilliamL]

On 2/17/2021 at 7:24 AM, Justin Adams said:

I am fairly sure we will be given notice by the Lord when this 2nd coming is about to occur.

Yes. Like the Great Tribulation, brought in by the Abomination of Desolation.

Literal translation of Daniel 12:11-12 And from the time the daily/continual service has been caused to be taken away and/even to the placing of an abomination of desolation: 1290 days. Blessed/happy is the one who earnestly waits, and comes/attains to 1335 days.

Looks like a 45-day or so notice to me.

[Jacob75]

On 7/4/2020 at 7:59 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the teaching that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, I have long believed that He can come at any time and have often expressed this with words such as, "even before I finish this sentence!"  Understandably, if so, it would seem that this teaching should also hold for all centuries of the Church Era, from the first century to the actual century of His return.

Did the first century Christians believe that Christ's return for the Church was imminent?  Consider Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:

 13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

 15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Should Paul's words be taken as applying to the Thessalonians personally?  I believe so.  Consider the very next verses, which open chapter five:

  1   But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   FOR YOURSELVES KNOW PERFECTLY that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

  3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape.

  4   BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.

Notice also that in the above joining references, Paul made a very close connection between the rapture and the Day of the Lord, which he says, "so cometh as a thief in the night" (vs. 2).  We know that when Christ returns for the rapture of the Church, He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, or as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44;  Mk. 13:32-37;  Lk. 12:39-40).  Indeed, because the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord so closely coincide, the Day of the Lord will come just as suddenly and unexpectedly, again, as Paul says, "as a thief in the night."  These words support that there will be no sign(s) that will indicate that Christ's return, nor the Day of the Lord, is on the verge of taking place.  To the contrary, Jesus said that "in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).  This world will by no means be expecting the rapture event, nor be prepared for the Day of the Lord, which scripturally can commence right afterwards---even on the same day.  But, we as Christians should be ever watchful and ready, knowing that this can happen at any time.

There are several other references that give support to the view that even first century Christians should have been prepared for Christ to come for the Church at any time.  Consider Paul's words, again to the Thessalonians, in I Thessalonians 1:

  9   For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

 10  AND to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

And, his words to the Thessalonians once more, in II Thessalonians 3:

  5   And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

And, his words to the Philippians, in chapter three:

 20  For our conversation is in heaven;  from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

 21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

And, his words to Titus, in chapter two:

 11   For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 13  LOOKING for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Note also that James writes similarly, in James 5:

  7   Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.  Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

  8   Be ye also patient;  stablish your hearts:  for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

In light of the foregoing, it should not be too difficult to reason that first century Christians would have rightly viewed Christ's return as being imminent.  But, there are valid questions that yet deserve addressing and bear upon some specifics.  Consider with me:

     1.  Jesus informed Peter (a revelation) concerning the manner of his (Peter's) death (Jn. 21:18-19).  We know that Peter understood this and was mindful that he would die---something he later alluded to (II Peter 1:13-14).  So, as far as Peter is concerned, it would seem that he would not have viewed Christ's return as being imminent, but rather, his own death.

     2.  John certainly understood what Jesus was saying to Peter (Jn. 21:20-24).  This means that he would have also had to be mindful of the fulfillment of Jesus' words.  I think John could have still felt that Jesus would come in his own lifetime (yes!), but probably not that His coming was imminent---at least, not until after Peter's death.  It would also seem evident that the rest of the apostles would have had this mindset.

     3.  Just prior to His ascension, Jesus told the apostles to tarry in Jerusalem, to "wait for the promise of the Father,"  which was the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:4-5).  He told them that after this, they would be witnesses unto Him (another revelation), "both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).  It seems that the apostles would have been bound to expect that what Jesus was saying to them would be fulfilled.  Of course, they might have expected Him to return at any minute and for His words to be fulfilled in some way that they could not at the time comprehend.  But, I think this is not necessarily so, and especially for Peter.

     4.  Concerning Paul, the Lord told Ananias, "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My name's sake" (Acts 9:16).  Paul had to realize that some pretty tough times were ahead for him.  I would think that until he had suffered some such, Christ's return would not have been imminent in his mind.  Jesus also informed Paul that he would be going to Rome (yet another revelation/Acts 23:11).  Until he arrived there, would Christ's return have been imminent in his mind?  I do believe that Paul felt that Christ would return in his lifetime (again, yes!), but I am doubtful that he would have felt that His return was imminent, at least not until the revelations concerning what he would experience were fulfilled.  Whereas Peter would have known that he (Peter) was going to die before Christ's return, Paul did not have this particular revelation concerning himself, except perhaps near his life's end (II Tim. 4:6).

As can be seen, there are evidences that seem to support that Christ's return would not have necessarily been imminent in the minds of the apostles, at least not in the earlier days of their ministry.  I say "seem" to allow for some angle that I may have yet to consider.  Based upon Scripture, I do feel comfortable in saying that, except for Peter, the apostles looked for Jesus to come in their lifetime, especially as they grew older.  And very probably, after Peter's death, they would have seen His return as being imminent.  Furthermore, after Peter's death, I would have to believe that Christians should have viewed Christ's return as imminent.  And note, they did not know when  Peter would die, just that he would.

In summing everything up, at the very least, the post-Apostolic, late first century Church should have viewed Christ's return for the Church as being imminent.  In my comprehension of what is revealed in Scripture, since that time until now, the only correct view of Christ's return for the Church is that it has been imminent.  Because of this, the only kind of rapture view that I can see that will harmonize with the scriptural evidence is a pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture view.  Said another way, as I see it, any other kind of view meets it Waterloo (like Napoleon) in the truth of the imminency of Christ's return.  Finally, the mindset of present day Christians should be that Christ can come for the Church at any time, even before I finish this senten

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).

This thread is part of a A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

Jesus did not speak in terms of what "seemed" to be.

Why do you?

[not an echo]

On 2/17/2021 at 8:06 AM, Heleadethme said:

On 2/16/2021 at 8:38 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Heleadethme,

Have just been trying to do some reviewing and catching up and noticed afresh your post.

Whereas I am pre-trib in my understanding of when the rapture will take place, my understanding is very different from the common view.  This especially holds true for the reference you used above.  I have spoke to this before (somewhere on the boards!), but I don't remember where!  So, here are some of my thoughts again.  First of all, notice the passage again, with my explanatory notes in parentheses:

 1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (at the rapture), and by our gathering together unto Him (during the rapture),

 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of Christ (His Second Coming!) is at hand.

 3  Let no man deceive you by any means:  for THAT DAY shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

As I see it, all Paul was saying to the Thessalonians was that the particular day of Christ's Second Coming was not "at hand" (vs. 2) as was being rumored.  The same thing would be true if such was being rumored today.  Before Christ returns to reign, the Antichrist will be revealed and the seven years of Daniel's 70th Week will transpire.  According to Paul's words, we who are a part of the Church will not see the Antichrist revealed.  While he may be alive at this time, that is different than being revealed.  The Church will be gathered to Christ during the rapture, before any of this occurs.  It is upon this basis that Paul beseeches his readers to not be troubled.  Try reading the passage again with this in mind and see if this understanding resonates with you.

Of course, in accord with my thread, I believe that Christ's return is imminent, which means that I believe He can return before I push Submit Reply!  I was just thinking, it sure will be neat if that is what I happen to be doing when the trumpet sounds! 

Thanks for your reply......I had to look up the meaning of the term "at hand"...it means "present", speaking of something occurring now....so the picture I'm getting seems to be that due to the harsh circumstances of the time they were living through, that the people were worried (as some were rumoring) that the judgment of God was upon them and that they had missed the rapture.  So Paul was reassuring them, saying it couldn't be the judgment yet (Day of the Lord) since certain other things had to happen first.  Would that make sense?  My mind isn't always the sharpest, but hope that fits.  And I'm sure with you on longing for His return!  The only thing that makes me conflicted is knowing that for so many there will no more hope, thinking especially about loved ones.  Praying and hoping for some kind of revival or maybe pockets of revival to happen first.

Hello again Heleadethme,

I hope the following will help you to better understand my above reply.

The morning of the day I got married, my marriage was "at hand."  If I had talked with my fiancee and used this phrase that morning, we would have delighted together over the fact---but we were not yet married.  Now, that same day, after I had kissed my bride, if I had said, "Our marriage is at hand",  she would have probably looked at me a little funny!  After our kiss, our marriage was no longer at hand, but a present reality.

If "at hand" is Googled, my illustration is in easy accord with the common definition of the phrase, which is "close in time;  about to happen."

According to your reply, I believe something further that needs to be considered is the phrase, "Day of the Lord."  In the KJV the reading is "Day of Christ" (II Thess. 2:2).  In Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, he speaks to them about "the Day of the Lord" (I Thess. 5:2), but in our verse of discussion, I see him as referring to "the Day of Christ" and I believe there is an important distinction to be made, as reflected in my above reply.  As I see it, this understanding solves a lot of problems that interpreters have grappled with.  Hope you will read my above reply again with this in mind.  And again, I believe that Christ's return is imminent, which means that I believe He can return for the Church before I push Submit Reply! 

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 2/17/2021 at 8:24 AM, Justin Adams said:

I am fairly sure we will be given notice by the Lord when this 2nd coming is about to occur. He does not want any to be lost, so the 'imminent' ideas seem disingenuous and somewhat self serving. God is concerned with all human life so will not short circuit the real ending and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. There seems to be no 'early' pre trib rapture kind of thing leaving the rest behind to face the music. This is also a bit self serving and a little mercenary if you think about it. God is good. All the time, and does not have 'bad days' like we do.

Hello Justin,

I can't help but recall what Jesus said, as recorded in Matthew 24:

 42  Watch therefore:  for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

 43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

 44  Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

But, I would also like to echo  what you said Justin, "God is good."  He has been good to me.  And, even though this present life holds a lot of tough times and hurts, I am so thankful for His strength, grace, and hope.  I have sometimes wondered, in the face of all that God has done for the good and redemption of humanity, what more could He do?  I think of the way it was in Noah's day and what is said in Genesis 6:5-8.  It appears that God spared the world till there was no further remedy.  I think of what is said in II Peter 3:

 9   The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness;  but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

 10  BUT the day of the Lord WILL COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT;  in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 11  Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

 12  Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

 13  Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 15  AND ACCOUNT THAT THE LONGSUFFERING OF OUR LORD IS SALVATION...

Yes, God is good.  But, what about Revelation 20:11-15, some may ask.  I would ask this:  What more could God do to warn humanity of the seriousness of what lies ahead?  And, what more precious invitation than this, in the last verses of the Bible, from Revelation 22:

 17  And the Spirit and the Bride say Come.  And let him that heareth say, Come.  And let him that is athirst come.  And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Yes Justin, God is good.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[Jacob75]

On 2/17/2021 at 6:24 AM, Justin Adams said:

I am fairly sure we will be given notice by the Lord when this 2nd coming is about to occur. He does not want any to be lost, so the 'imminent' ideas seem disingenuous and somewhat self serving. God is concerned with all human life so will not short circuit the real ending and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. There seems to be no 'early' pre trib rapture kind of thing leaving the rest behind to face the music. This is also a bit self serving and a little mercenary if you think about it. God is good. All the time, and does not have 'bad days' like we do.

Using personal sensitivities to decide what "seems fair" is not part of Godly Wisdom.  Neither is it part of discerning God's Word.

"There is a way which seemeth right into a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Wrath and death in the Seven Year Tribulation are death unto rebellious people, and are not Joyful Life from a Loving God for His People.

[not an echo]

On 2/24/2021 at 11:04 PM, Jacob75 said:

On 7/4/2020 at 9:59 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning the teaching that Christ's return for the Church is imminent, I have long believed that He can come at any time and have often expressed this with words such as, "even before I finish this sentence!"  Understandably, if so, it would seem that this teaching should also hold for all centuries of the Church Era, from the first century to the actual century of His return.

Did the first century Christians believe that Christ's return for the Church was imminent?  Consider Paul's words in I Thessalonians 4:

 13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

 15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Should Paul's words be taken as applying to the Thessalonians personally?  I believe so.  Consider the very next verses, which open chapter five:

  1   But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   FOR YOURSELVES KNOW PERFECTLY that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

  3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape.

  4   BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.

Notice also that in the above joining references, Paul made a very close connection between the rapture and the Day of the Lord, which he says, "so cometh as a thief in the night" (vs. 2).  We know that when Christ returns for the rapture of the Church, He will come suddenly and unexpectedly, or as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44;  Mk. 13:32-37;  Lk. 12:39-40).  Indeed, because the rapture and the beginning of the Day of the Lord so closely coincide, the Day of the Lord will come just as suddenly and unexpectedly, again, as Paul says, "as a thief in the night."  These words support that there will be no sign(s) that will indicate that Christ's return, nor the Day of the Lord, is on the verge of taking place.  To the contrary, Jesus said that "in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).  This world will by no means be expecting the rapture event, nor be prepared for the Day of the Lord, which scripturally can commence right afterwards---even on the same day.  But, we as Christians should be ever watchful and ready, knowing that this can happen at any time.

There are several other references that give support to the view that even first century Christians should have been prepared for Christ to come for the Church at any time.  Consider Paul's words, again to the Thessalonians, in I Thessalonians 1:

  9   For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

 10  AND to wait for His Son from Heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

And, his words to the Thessalonians once more, in II Thessalonians 3:

  5   And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

And, his words to the Philippians, in chapter three:

 20  For our conversation is in heaven;  from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

 21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself.

And, his words to Titus, in chapter two:

 11   For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 13  LOOKING for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Note also that James writes similarly, in James 5:

  7   Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord.  Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

  8   Be ye also patient;  stablish your hearts:  for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

In light of the foregoing, it should not be too difficult to reason that first century Christians would have rightly viewed Christ's return as being imminent.  But, there are valid questions that yet deserve addressing and bear upon some specifics.  Consider with me:

     1.  Jesus informed Peter (a revelation) concerning the manner of his (Peter's) death (Jn. 21:18-19).  We know that Peter understood this and was mindful that he would die---something he later alluded to (II Peter 1:13-14).  So, as far as Peter is concerned, it would seem that he would not have viewed Christ's return as being imminent, but rather, his own death.

     2.  John certainly understood what Jesus was saying to Peter (Jn. 21:20-24).  This means that he would have also had to be mindful of the fulfillment of Jesus' words.  I think John could have still felt that Jesus would come in his own lifetime (yes!), but probably not that His coming was imminent---at least, not until after Peter's death.  It would also seem evident that the rest of the apostles would have had this mindset.

     3.  Just prior to His ascension, Jesus told the apostles to tarry in Jerusalem, to "wait for the promise of the Father,"  which was the power of the Holy Ghost (Acts 1:4-5).  He told them that after this, they would be witnesses unto Him (another revelation), "both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth" (Acts 1:8).  It seems that the apostles would have been bound to expect that what Jesus was saying to them would be fulfilled.  Of course, they might have expected Him to return at any minute and for His words to be fulfilled in some way that they could not at the time comprehend.  But, I think this is not necessarily so, and especially for Peter.

     4.  Concerning Paul, the Lord told Ananias, "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My name's sake" (Acts 9:16).  Paul had to realize that some pretty tough times were ahead for him.  I would think that until he had suffered some such, Christ's return would not have been imminent in his mind.  Jesus also informed Paul that he would be going to Rome (yet another revelation/Acts 23:11).  Until he arrived there, would Christ's return have been imminent in his mind?  I do believe that Paul felt that Christ would return in his lifetime (again, yes!), but I am doubtful that he would have felt that His return was imminent, at least not until the revelations concerning what he would experience were fulfilled.  Whereas Peter would have known that he (Peter) was going to die before Christ's return, Paul did not have this particular revelation concerning himself, except perhaps near his life's end (II Tim. 4:6).

As can be seen, there are evidences that seem to support that Christ's return would not have necessarily been imminent in the minds of the apostles, at least not in the earlier days of their ministry.  I say "seem" to allow for some angle that I may have yet to consider.  Based upon Scripture, I do feel comfortable in saying that, except for Peter, the apostles looked for Jesus to come in their lifetime, especially as they grew older.  And very probably, after Peter's death, they would have seen His return as being imminent.  Furthermore, after Peter's death, I would have to believe that Christians should have viewed Christ's return as imminent.  And note, they did not know when  Peter would die, just that he would.

In summing everything up, at the very least, the post-Apostolic, late first century Church should have viewed Christ's return for the Church as being imminent.  In my comprehension of what is revealed in Scripture, since that time until now, the only correct view of Christ's return for the Church is that it has been imminent.  Because of this, the only kind of rapture view that I can see that will harmonize with the scriptural evidence is a pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture view.  Said another way, as I see it, any other kind of view meets it Waterloo (like Napoleon) in the truth of the imminency of Christ's return.  Finally, the mindset of present day Christians should be that Christ can come for the Church at any time, even before I finish this senten

"Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev. 22:20).

This thread is part of a A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

Jesus did not speak in terms of what "seemed" to be.

Why do you?

Hello Jacob75,

For me, it is a simple matter of endeavoring to be a good "workman" (II Tim. 2:15), understanding the challenges of rightly interpreting God's Word (especially prophecy), and humbly acknowledging that I can err.  Got to go...