Montana Marv Posted July 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2020 5 hours ago, Diaste said: Not really. "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him," Clearly the coming of our Lord and the gathering happen at the same time. "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." Again, when Jesus comes the gathering happens, at the sign of His coming. "By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." A parallel of Matt 24. The gathering of the saints, the elect, us to Him, happens in conjunction with the sign of His coming, the loud command, a trumpet, power and glory of Christ and His descent. Nothing secret or hidden about it and the Coming and the gathering happen together. I come as a thief in the night. Totally unexpected. No announcement beforehand. Only God the Father knows when the Bridegroom will come and make his appearance. Yet there is forewarning before the Second Coming. Two separate event's. In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted July 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Montana Marv said: I come as a thief in the night. Totally unexpected. No announcement beforehand. Only God the Father knows when the Bridegroom will come and make his appearance. Yet there is forewarning before the Second Coming. Two separate event's. In Christ Montana Marv Nope. Only comes as a thief to those in darkness. Let that sink in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted July 21, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) On 7/18/2020 at 6:07 AM, Diaste said: Quote In years past, when I would try to imagine Christ returning as a thief to take His Church out of this world, my only concept was in tune with the common pre-trib view and without any consideration of the sphere shape of the earth. I too envisioned Christians disappearing the world over and none of those left behind getting a glimpse of anything, much less a glimpse of Christ. I too could see Christian's clothes settling in a ruffle as their bodies disappeared from within them or something falling that a Christian might have been holding at the time or vehicles that Christians were driving, suddenly being driverless, and what that would mean. In other words, I never saw a problem scripturally with how things are commonly imagined or depicted. And, this is still the way I see things happening, at least ON OUR SIDE of the earth. I mean, we have Scripture that things in this world are going to be shaken up. We have Scripture that this is going to happen without warning. And, we have Scripture that when it happens, it's going to happen very, very quickly. Hence, as I see it, what is commonly imagined is simply a matter of doing the math. But, do we really have Scripture that Christ is going to return invisibly at this time? Let me suggest another equation, much more in harmony with Scripture. By my math, when it is time, the Lamb will open the 6th Seal, whereupon He will suddenly return to the earth, but in the clouds over the land of Israel. This will be His Sign Return, and barring a miracle to some other effect, it will not be possible for those left behind in our hemisphere to see this. Of course, the situation will be vastly different at the time of Christ's Second Coming, when "EVERY EYE shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7). But, more on this in a minute. Back to our equation, in Israel's hemisphere, even if it's high noon, I can envision everything suddenly brightening up intensely, like in a blink. Concurrent with this, there will be a great sound of a trumpet, whereupon the resurrection will occur, followed immediately by the rapture of the Church. Even though multitudes of Christians, arguably most, will not be in Israel's hemisphere, the angels will gather them together so quickly that they too will see (and meet) Christ within a twinkling of an eye. At this same instant, 144,000 Jews (in Israel's hemisphere) will get at least a glimpse of Christ, a glimpse that apparently connects with their being converted. They will be sealed, but left behind, evidently for the purpose of bearing testimony to the Lamb and warning everyone concerning the Antichrist during Daniel's 70th Week. For all the rest left behind on Israel's side of the earth, many possibilities exist that are easily imaginable. Many will be in or near the land of Israel, but others will be at the far reaches of its hemisphere. Those who are outside and not facing in His direction at the instant of His appearance may not get the same glimpse of Him as those who are. It's not hard to imagine everyone that sees His brightness having to shield and shut their eyes, and opening their eyes, He may already be gone! Some will be inside at the time and may only see the flash of brightness in conjunction with everything else that will happen. Outside of the 144,000, there's no telling how many will get a glimpse of Him but won't survive all that will happen long enough to tell about it. Of those missing, some will be gone who were known to be Christians, along with some who were not known to be. On the other hand, of those left behind, there will be those who were thought to be Christians, but were not---those who were merely religious but lost. Meanwhile, on our side of the earth, in our hemisphere, it's easy to see those who are left behind shaking their heads---in my thinking, as commonly depicted---left to experience the aftermath of what happens after the opening of the 6th Seal. As can be seen, my concept of what Scripture reveals is much like that of others who are pre-trib in their rapture view, as far as what it will be like for those left behind over here. For those in Israel's hemisphere, however, things will be somewhat different, for we can only try to imagine what the sign appearance of Christ will be like, even if it is but a glimpse. But, Jesus and John give us a little insight---Jesus in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse (Lk. 21:25-27), and John, in his account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-17) Back to Christ's Second Coming, Scripture is plain that "every eye shall see Him..." (Rev. 1:7). And, we know that God can effect this however He would like. But, I see solid scriptural evidence of an interesting possibility relating to this also. With the sounding of the first four trumpets, the "third part" is repeatedly said to be destroyed. If this destruction connects with what is in our hemisphere (which equals 1/3 of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point), and this is taken out of the picture (or off the world's stage) for the time of Daniel's 70th Week, the only eyes left upon the earth at the time of Christ's Second Coming could easily be those in Israel's hemisphere. Meaning, just as the sun at noon time in Israel is visible to every eye in that hemisphere, so will THE SON be very visible to every eye in that hemisphere---simultaneously, in Person, as King of kings as Lord of lords---without the need of any help from cell phones, satellite transmissions, or any of man's technology. The first thread that I ever started on Worthy Christian Forums concerns this. It is entitled, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/). The possibilities revolving around all of this has continued to engage my interest... Just learned to add a link tonight. I think the above is just unicorns and windmills. My little narratives are often just an effort to take some elements of the common pre-trib perspective and formulate something more in tune with Scripture. In the days of my acceptance of the common view, my only concept of Christ's return for the rapture was that it would be secret and invisible, except of course for the Church. You know, one day we just all of a sudden vanish, and those left behind are left wondering what happened. Of course, if this is the way it is to be, it's not hard to imagine what the case will be when a car is left driverless, or worse yet, when a jet airliner is left pilotless. As I came to see the rapture happening with the opening of the 6th Seal, the thing of the people seeing Christ (Rev. 6:15-16) caused me to have to rethink some things. Initially, I even wondered if Jesus was indeed being seen here, because we know that people have reacted similarly in the face of far less catastrophes. But, this wasn't in tune with other puzzle pieces (e.g., Lk. 21:25-27, Matt. 24:29-31). Well, it is certainly not hard to imagine that if Christ returns in the sky over the land of Israel for the rapture, barring a miracle to some other effect (which is entirely possible!), those on our side of the earth would not witness this. So, like the wheels of our minds do, mine begin to process thoughts in this direction. Did my mind churn out "unicorns and windmills"? Perhaps. You know, the same as a lot of people don't believe there is going to be a rapture (as they don't even believe there is a God), a lot of people don't believe there was a flood. As I have tried in the past to imagine how things might have been in the days of the flood, I have considered how things might be if such a flood should occur in our day. In contemplation of the rise of the water, I can see how all the little insects, worms, and micro-organisms that are already in the ground would be the first to be covered over. Smaller animals like mice and lizards would arguably not fare as well as cats and monkeys. Bigger animals moving toward the more immediate refuge of the closest small hills would soon be stranded there and unable to get to higher hills. Conceivably (to me anyway) humans would fare better, especially in the face of a cataclysm they had been warned of. In other words, we often think in terms of what we would do if something we have been warned of does come to pass. And, for those that might not heed warnings, maybe they would get lucky enough to have a windmill float by! At the very least, I can imagine that humans would be in the higher percentile of creatures surviving the longest. Would one be assuming too much to suggest that in the general order in which creatures were overcome the world over, so would they be found in the sediment later? I'm reminded of the phrase Darwin evidently coined, "the survival of the fittest," which has its roots in what has long been observed in strata. After a flood, one could expect to find the mass amounts of smaller creatures somewhat deeper in the sediment than the mass amounts of larger creatures, and humans shallower than anything else, if at all. The last survivors of such a flood, if not on top of the sediment as the water recedes, would be in the shallower layers of it and more susceptible to decomposition and scavenging. Is this a possible explanation as to why ancient human fossils are so relatively scarce? Then there is the thing of sea level, the geography of the earth, the movement of the tectonic plates, and a lot of other factors. Even in the face of the Bible narrative, some suggest that it was a local flood. Is sea level and gravity not relevant to our concepts? I mean, if sea level rises 10 foot in the Pacific, it's going to rise 10 foot in the Atlantic. What I said about Jesus not being visible on our side of the earth (barring a miracle to some other effect) when He comes in the sky over Israel, does the sphere shape of the earth not hold any relevance to our concepts? What I said about what is in our hemisphere being equal to "1/3 of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point", does this fact not hold any relevance to our concepts? I'm only talking about what God's Word says as it connects with His World. My point with this little narrative Diaste is, why would you be negative about one's seeking to imagine what the future may hold, when everything is kept within the parameters that Scripture affords? Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted July 21, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 On 7/18/2020 at 6:44 AM, Diaste said: On 7/17/2020 at 10:42 PM, not an echo said: Hello Diaste (and all), Hope everyone has had a good week. When I think of Jesus' coming as a thief, I think of Him coming as a thief would---suddenly, unexpectedly, and for the goods! For us that are saved, we will be the goods that will be taken---whether we be a parent, a spouse, a son or a daughter, a cousin, a best friend, an old friend, or what ever, we will be taken, gathered by the angels to meet Christ in the air. On the other hand, for those that are not saved, they will be those from which the goods will be taken---whether they be a parent, a spouse, a son or a daughter, a cousin, a best friend, an old friend, or what ever, they will be left behind, to experience the Day of the Lord and what that will be for them. Of course, when anyone knows when a thief will come, measures are taken. As Jesus said in Matthew 24: 43 BUT KNOW THIS, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. But, with Christ's return as a thief, no one knows, or can know. Further, if one thinks he or she knows or has it all figured out, it surely won't be then that He comes. In the next verse, Jesus says... 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour AS YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh. I'm reminded of the Joker on the Batman movie, when he and his partners were going to take the goods from that chemical factory. When the safe was opened and it was seen to be empty, he makes the statement, "We've been ratted out here, boys." Well, ain't nobody gonna be able to figure out when Jesus is going to come for His goods! Concerning Christ's Sign Return for the rapture of the Church being imminent, I guess I could say that it's a little more than His coming "as a thief" that brings this teaching home for me. It's the thing of no one being able to know "what watch" it will be when He comes. Anything that would give this kind of information away has a negative effect on what any thief is seeking to accomplish. For me, when I contemplate whether Jesus will come "as a thief" at His Sign Return (Matt. 24:29-31/Rev. 6:12-17) or later at His Second Coming (Matt. 24:26-28/Rev. 19:11-21), I am unable to see how He could come as a thief at the latter, with all that will have happened that will point explicitly to "what watch." And this is not to mention that the way it looks to me, "the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies" will be "gathered together to make war against Him" and "against His army" (Rev. 19:19). At His Second Coming, it looks like that even those in darkness will then be watching for Him, no doubt supposing that under the Antichrist's leadership, they might have a chance in this battle---but they won't. It's because of idee fixe you come to this conclusion. Another interpretive filter gets in the way of reality. When the filter of imminence is coupled with 'thief in the night' it changes the hue. Then it appears you and others are using a kind of mental white out, a dele as it were. Just forget the 'be ready' part. Also tune out "...you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." The conclusion from the evidence of the above verses you reference from Matt 24 is incorrect as it ignores all the other evidence that we will know when the Day and His coming is near. I'm reminded of my beloved grandmother (now with the Lord), who, when I was a big first grader, looked behind my ears and immediately insisted that I go wash them, because, she said, "they're rusty!" I thought, "I bet they're not really." So, I went to the bathroom, ran the water for a little bit, and returned for her to check'em out. "Oh," she said, "that's a lot better!" I quickly laughed and replied, "Grandma, I didn't even touch'em!" Wrong move!!! Well, my grandmother's knowing that any little six year old boy that hadn't had a bath in half a day would have rusty ears gave her an "idee fixe." Hey, I'm betting we all get a little touch of this from time to time! Now Diaste, I just don't know what's got you to thinking that I'm forgetting "the 'be ready' part" or tuning out "...you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." I'm thinking that it may be because of idee fixe you come to this conclusion. Oops, there I go being an echo again. Annnyway, let's say you were going to have to leave your young son for some indefinite period of time and wanted to prepare him for some of the things that would lie ahead in his future until you returned. You could say... "Now son, I've got to be leaving for a pretty good while, and I'm not for sure just when I will be coming back, but I am. And when I do, have your things ready because I'm just gonna spring in one day and grab you up and we're gonna be off to Disneyworld. In the mean time remember these things: Life is full of sunny and rainy days, but it takes such for the flowers to bloom. And...you are going to encounter lots of different kinds of people in this life, some who will make good friends and some who will not, so be careful. And...you will be faced with having to say 'Yes' or 'No' to all kinds of temptations and however it may seem at the time, things will always turn out better if you just say 'No.' And...if you meet a little girl that sweeps you off your feet, this doesn't necessarily mean she's the one, so give it some time." Now, with all of this information, he would have nothing upon which to base the time of your springing in. However, when the things began to come to pass that you had spoken of, it would be reinforced for him that Dad sure knew what he was talking about! The fulfilling of the things you had told your young son would become something that would keep his hope alive concerning your future return---continuing confirmations that you are indeed coming back! On the other hand, if what you had said did not come to pass, or ceased to hold true, he would have legitimate reasons to wonder. The facts of history from the first century unto our day align with the opening portion of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and substantiate that our Lord sure knew what He was talking about! These facts should bear up our hope and strengthen our faith. We who truly believe in the imminency of Christ's return are not looking for any unfulfilled sign(s) to first be fulfilled. Nor are we looking for any sign(s) that will help toward pinpointing the time of His return. However, we do have for signs the continued fulfilling of the things He warned of, which are continuing confirmations that He is indeed coming back! Now, from our perspective, would He be coming as a thief? No, because we are expecting Him! Like the little boy in the above illustration, we should have high expectations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montana Marv Posted July 21, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 3,135 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 1,091 Days Won: 2 Joined: 11/03/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Diaste said: Nope. Only comes as a thief to those in darkness. Let that sink in. Then the foolish virgins have to go before the five wise virgins. Five go and five are left behind In Christ Montana Marv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not an echo Posted July 21, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,204 Content Per Day: 0.79 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1957 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) On 7/18/2020 at 6:44 AM, Diaste said: The conclusion from the evidence of the above verses you reference from Matt 24 is incorrect as it ignores all the other evidence that we will know when the Day and His coming is near. Interpretive filters block out: "23At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is!’ do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. 25See, I have told you in advance." "So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather." This isn't about the Jews as Jesus references False Christs and false reports of His return. The Jews would not care as they don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah; the above is for followers of the Way the Truth and the Life. I have to disagree with your reasoning here, as there is a lot of difference between one's referring to our Lord as "Jesus" and one's willingness to refer to Him as "Jesus Christ." The latter recognizes Him as the Messiah, and this is what the orthodox Jew rejects. This is something interesting to note in the book of Acts, beginning on the Day of Pentecost, when 3000 orthodox Jews accepted that Jesus was the Christ! Note Peter's words in Acts 2, beginning here... 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: and summed up here... 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord AND CHRIST. Note also the other many occasions of the word Christ in Acts, and especially 17:3 and 18:5, 28. As I see it, not only have there been many messianic claimants since the time of Jesus Christ, of which He warned relating to the era of the Church (Matt. 24:5), there will be the same after the Church is gone (Matt. 24:23-25), of which the Antichrist will be the preeminent. Understanding this helps us to better understand that Jesus' parable of the fig tree is for the Israelites that will be left behind after the Church is gathered. As Luke records in chapter 21: 28 And when these things begin to come to pass (what He has just got through talking to them about), then look up and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And He spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; Now, according to your chosen reference (Matt. 24:23-28, esp. vss. 27-28), I agree with you fully. Jesus' coming for the Battle of Armageddon will by no means be imminent, as there are a bushel of signs that will precede this event, not to mention that His enemies (who are in "darkness") will be gathered for the battle (Rev. 19:19). From a different direction, my mind goes to what Peter said in II Peter 3: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. If the post-trib view is correct, this is the kind of talk that many can talk now, but not the kind of talk that any will be able to talk just prior to Christ's Second Advent. Why? At that time, there won't be anything that is continuing as it has been. Even if there is a lull, everything will have been so out of whack that the remaining population will be conditioned for out of whack. As I've indicated elsewhere Diaste, if the rapture (or the gathering) don't occur until the time of Christ's Second Advent, this would be tantamount to Noah not entering the ark till the 40th day of rain. For Noah and his family, the escape or deliverance was pre-flood, not mid, or post. When the 1st Vial of God's wrath is poured out, people aren't going to be "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" (Matt. 24:38). Nor will they be buying and selling and planting and building (Lk. 17:28). Neither will they be working "in the field" or "grinding at the mill" (Matt. 24:40-41). And, they won't be doing this when the 2nd Vial of God's wrath is poured out, nor the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th. Well, and by the 7th, there won't even be any of this left to do. And all of this is not to mention everything that will have happened up until the pouring out of the 1st Vial. Well before then, as I said above, the remaining population will be conditioned for out of whack. Oops, there I go being an echo again. You know Diaste, exactly as you said, "Interpretive filters block out:" I'm in total agreement---interpretive filters block out. Oops, if I'm not more careful, I gonna have to change my avatar Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 14 hours ago, not an echo said: The facts of history from the first century unto our day align with the opening portion of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and substantiate that our Lord sure knew what He was talking about! These facts should bear up our hope and strengthen our faith. We who truly believe in the imminency of Christ's return are not looking for any unfulfilled sign(s) to first be fulfilled. Nor are we looking for any sign(s) that will help toward pinpointing the time of His return. However, we do have for signs the continued fulfilling of the things He warned of, which are continuing confirmations that He is indeed coming back! It's not the same thing. What we see going on in the world is the condition of mankind and always has been. There have always been wars, famine, earthquakes, pestilence, etc, etc. None of it is worse or better than before, perhaps going back to the fall. You think there were no wars, famine, earthquakes or pestilence before the flood? How bad was it that God had to destroy everyone but 8 people and a boatload of animals? Jesus didn't say much about the 'last days' in the Olivet discourse, if anything. He was asked about the end of the age and the sign of His coming. His answer concerned the end of the age and it seems out of place to apply Matt 24:4:8 to a span of 2000+ years. It seems quite clear the generation that sees all these things is the terminal generation. That idea applies to the answer Jesus gave to the question He was asked. Therefore Matt 24:4-8 cannot refer to 20 centuries and can only be referenced to the terminal generation. Forty generations saying "The end is near!" based on Matt 24:4-8 means every generation was wrong. Again, Matt 24:4-8 cannot apply to the past 2000 years. What you are saying here: "we do have for signs the continued fulfilling of the things He warned of" and here, "which are continuing confirmations that He is indeed coming back" would apply to every believer since the ascension and makes the 'signs' meaningless since Jesus has not yet returned. 14 hours ago, not an echo said: Now, from our perspective, would He be coming as a thief? No, because we are expecting Him! Like the little boy in the above illustration, we should have high expectations! But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. This is the real reason Jesus does not come like a thief. I feel this 'expectation by condition' is shallow understanding. I guarantee Jesus will not come before the beast is revealed and the world swears an oath to a false god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 12 hours ago, not an echo said: I have to disagree with your reasoning here, as there is a lot of difference between one's referring to our Lord as "Jesus" and one's willingness to refer to Him as "Jesus Christ." The latter recognizes Him as the Messiah, and this is what the orthodox Jew rejects. This is something interesting to note in the book of Acts, beginning on the Day of Pentecost, when 3000 orthodox Jews accepted that Jesus was the Christ! Note Peter's words in Acts 2, beginning here... 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by Him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: and summed up here... 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord AND CHRIST. Note also the other many occasions of the word Christ in Acts, and especially 17:3 and 18:5, 28. As I see it, not only have there been many messianic claimants since the time of Jesus Christ, of which He warned relating to the era of the Church (Matt. 24:5), there will be the same after the Church is gone (Matt. 24:23-25), of which the Antichrist will be the preeminent. Understanding this helps us to better understand that Jesus' parable of the fig tree is for the Israelites that will be left behind after the Church is gathered. Not sure what argument you're making. If, as you say, Orthodox Jewry rejects the idea of Jesus as the Messiah, then they will reject any rumor the Messiah is in the desert, a hidden room, etc. In fact Orthodox Jewry is going to reject any claim to Messianic stature unless that person fits their idea of the Messiah. According to Jews it's a Jewish man from the lineage of David who will be anointed with oil and build the 3rd Temple. They won't care about rumors of a hidden Messiah no matter how persistent. The Jewish Messiah will be appointed by a Jewish 'prophet'. In case you didn't notice Matt 24:4-5 refer to Messiah. And there is this: "and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." Not the Jews as they don't hold the testimony of Jesus as the Christ. I once looked it up and there have been hundreds claiming to be the 'Messiah'. Matt 24 is in the context of the end of the age not all of human history. 12 hours ago, not an echo said: As I've indicated elsewhere Diaste, if the rapture (or the gathering) don't occur until the time of Christ's Second Coming, this would be tantamount to Noah not entering the ark till the 40th day of rain. For Noah and his family, the escape or deliverance was pre-flood, not mid, or post. Yes. Salvation from the flood was before the flood began. The mistake is thinking the entire 70th week is wrath when it's not. Only the vials are wrath. The seals and trumps are within the last week and are not wrath. We will all be here for the seals and trumps, if we have not passed before then, but taken before the vials of wrath begin. Pretrib and other doctrines get it wrong through the false equivalency of 70th week=God's wrath. Then to skirt the fact of the 2nd coming after GT, as Matt 24 says, they make up a secret 'coming like a thief' rapture that appears no where in scripture. The post trib/prewrath view states wrath begins late in the week and the time before the Signs of His coming is what we are told we will overcome in the name of Jesus, and the power of the Spirit, for the glory of our Father. What came before the flood was not wrath therefore no salvation from wrath. Notice how when those 8 people were saved it was from an event that was destroying everyone else. The seals don't destroy everyone, the trumps don't destroy everyone; only the vials are wrath which brutally punish the rebels and in the end slay them all. Post trib/prewrath follows this example of the flood as well as Lot; righteous Lot who suffered and was taken out by angels a moment before God's wrath destroyed Sodom, exactly like it will occur in the end of the age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,628 Content Per Day: 1.99 Reputation: 2,368 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 17 hours ago, not an echo said: My little narratives are often just an effort to take some elements of the common pre-trib perspective and formulate something more in tune with Scripture. In the days of my acceptance of the common view, my only concept of Christ's return for the rapture was that it would be secret and invisible, except of course for the Church. You know, one day we just all of a sudden vanish, and those left behind are left wondering what happened. Of course, if this is the way it is to be, it's not hard to imagine what the case will be when a car is left driverless, or worse yet, when a jet airliner is left pilotless. As I came to see the rapture happening with the opening of the 6th Seal, the thing of the people seeing Christ (Rev. 6:15-16) caused me to have to rethink some things. Initially, I even wondered if Jesus was indeed being seen here, because we know that people have reacted similarly in the face of far less catastrophes. But, this wasn't in tune with other puzzle pieces (e.g., Lk. 21:25-27, Matt. 24:29-31). Well, it is certainly not hard to imagine that if Christ returns in the sky over the land of Israel for the rapture, barring a miracle to some other effect (which is entirely possible!), those on our side of the earth would not witness this. So, like the wheels of our minds do, mine begin to process thoughts in this direction. Did my mind churn out unicorns and windmills? Perhaps. You know, the same as a lot of people don't believe there is going to be a rapture (as they don't even believe there is a God), a lot of people don't believe there was a flood. As I have tried in the past to imagine how things might have been in the days of the flood, I have considered how things might be if such a flood should occur in our day. In contemplation of the rise of the water, I can see how all the little insects, worms, and micro-organisms that are already in the ground would be the first to be covered over. Smaller animals like mice and lizards would arguably not fare as well as cats and monkeys. Bigger animals moving toward the more immediate refuge of the closest small hills would soon be stranded there and unable to get to higher hills. Conceivably (to me anyway) humans would fare better, especially in the face of a cataclysm they had been warned of. In other words, we often think in terms of what we would do if something we have been warned of does come to pass. And, for those that might not heed warnings, maybe they would get lucky enough to have a windmill float by! At the very least, I can imagine that humans would be in the higher percentile of creatures surviving the longest. Would one be assuming too much to suggest that in the general order in which creatures were overcome the world over, so would they be found in the sediment later? I'm reminded of the phrase Darwin evidently coined, "the survival of the fittest," which has its roots in what has long been observed in strata. After a flood, one could expect to find the mass amounts of smaller creatures somewhat deeper in the sediment than the mass amounts of larger creatures, and humans shallower than anything else, if at all. The last survivors of such a flood, if not on top of the sediment as the water recedes, would be in the shallower layers of it and more susceptible to decomposition and scavenging. Is this a possible explanation as to why ancient human fossils are so relatively scarce? Then there is the thing of sea level, the geography of the earth, the movement of the tectonic plates, and a lot of other factors. Even in the face of the Bible narrative, some suggest that it was a local flood. Is sea level and gravity not relevant to our concepts? I mean, if sea level rises 10 foot in the Pacific, it's going to rise 10 foot in the Atlantic. What I said about Jesus not being visible on our side of the earth (barring a miracle to some other effect) when He comes in the sky over Israel, is the sphere shape of the earth not relevant to our concepts? What I said about what is in our hemisphere being equal to "1/3 of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point," is this fact not relevant to our concepts? I'm only talking about what God's Word says as it connects with His World. My point with this little narrative Diaste is, why would you be negative about one's seeking to imagine what the future may hold, when everything is kept within the parameters that Scripture affords? People convince themselves of anything and everything. What we are subjected to from birth to the age of self awareness takes it's toll on critical, independent thought. Most will not realize the length and depth and breadth of the control of everything we see and hear. From a young age I was quite independent of thought and critical of many things. Needless to say authorities, educators and family didn't exactly take a shine to me. The herd doesn't like it when a member questions the herder. My biggest concern was and is the point of it all. What are we doing? How does it help? Is force feeding me 'education' the way to wisdom and understanding? Are we really born just to work then die? Christ is the only true and real purpose and the truth of all things lies only in Him. The religious/science doctrine of the Instrumentality concerning origins is provably false by their own evidence and they know it. No transitional forms, the Information problem, genetic material loss, haploid groups, mitosis; the list goes on and on. If they are wrong about this what else is wrong? Well, most things concerning planetary, solar, galactic and universal structures and systems as well as other dogma and tenets of the cult of the Instrumentality. They can't even answer the most basic questions about the rotation of the earth, air mass and vectors. I have had the conversations and every time they ignore the question, answer some question I didn't ask or ignore the whole thing. Real transparent. They expect us just to believe their equations have the answers and our eyes lie to us. It's common, insidious and evil. Every authoritative body engages in this. It's either provide bread and circuses or use violence and threats to keep the herd in line. It doesn't matter if you believe this or not. I don't care. You say you don't hold to the common view any more but you still insist on the pretrib rapture as doctrine. I used to think, "What if everything we think we know is wrong?" That in itself is wrong as it's not "What if...". Everything we think we know IS wrong. Only Jesus is Truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,605 Content Per Day: 3.97 Reputation: 7,795 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 35 minutes ago, Diaste said: Everything we think we know IS wrong. Only Jesus is Truth. "Let God be true and every man a liar." "We see in a glass darkly" - most of those I know cannot even find that glass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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