The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return For The Rapture Of The Church

[RonaldBruno]

12 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

From that viewpoint Paul did ask me WHY I was not living free from sin. So maybe that would be a book about how we are to live righteous, holy, sanctified lives before God. I can not really write the book on that though because my life is not really an example for others. I did not answer Paul. That was fine with him, he wanted me to think about it. Maybe he wants to set the record straight that he was not telling people that they have a license to sin the way they accuse him of doing. 

Experiences on heaven usually are reported with lots of information, with visitors seemingly spending lots of time that on earth was only minutes. That is why I expected much more information. How did you know it was PAUL and then? How do you know it was heaven, not just a fabricated dream. It just seems that experiences told about visiting heaven are extraordinary: the spendor, the light, the brilliance, peace, heightened feeling of love, brilliant colors, etc. You may have felt a guilt about sin after reading the Bible?

Anf why would Paul speak to you, not an angel of Jesus himself? And why wouldn't a heavenly experience accompany this dream/vision to validate it. I mean really, 15 seconds ... I saw Paula and he asked me why I'm living with sin? 

We all have the Holy Spirit Who guides us, teaches us, speaks to us and convicts us sin -God directly does that - not dead apostles!

[JohnR7]

10 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

How did you know it was PAUL and then?

That is a good question, you just know. Actually my spiritual eyes are really not open that much. So what I saw was not that clear. Compared to the dream I had that was very vivid. Also I got a huge amount of information from my dream. For example when I saw my daughter there were maybe 50 or 60 brand new toys that were still in the box. I wondered why she did not take them out of the box to play with them. Later on I found out that those toys were gifts from relatives in Heaven who had visited her. The gift was to remind her of their visit. I did not have a gift for her and I found out she asked the angel about that. He did not know but later on when my son went to Heaven and he went to visit her, he told her who I was. And on & on & on. 

So the dream  goes on and I keep learning more about that dream over time. But my experience with Paul - not so much. I asked a question. The angel told me that Paul would answer my question personally and in an instant I was there "talking" to Paul. The reason is that EVERYONE, esp Paul is VERY interested in this time that we are living in. The Kingdoms of this world are becoming the Kingdom of God. Even Abraham looked forward and saw this day & time that we are living in. For the next 1,000 years people will study their history book and have more regard for the next 10 years then they have for even Pentecost and the beginning of the church that we hold in very high regard today. 

The other experience I had like this was when the Matriarch of my family wanted to ask my mom a question  about me. She wanted to know what my gifts, talents and abilities are. They do not talk about you behind your back in Heaven so I was caught up and she took me with her to talk to my mom. I did not say anything, I was just aware that they were having a conversation about me. Again not  alot of information there. Not enough to write a book about. But I could write a lot of books. God is eternal and our learning goes on and on. For example David in Psalm 139:16 talks about the book that God writes about our life. That has to do with the gifts, talents and abilities God give us at conception to bring Him praise, honor and glory. So we could maybe write a whole book about that. Easily I could write a whole book about Psalm 139:16 because I continue to learn the meaning of what David is telling us. This is tied in with Rev 20:12 when we are told "the books were opened". Maybe it would take a lot more than just a book to explain that scripture. Can you image all the books written about all the people that have ever lived or were ever conceived?  

I actually flunked English Grammar in College. I did all the work she asked me to do so I do not think it was fair that I had to take that class over again. The second time I did all the same stuff as the first time I took the class and he gave me a C. So I do not think I would be very good at writing books but I am sure I could come up with enough fresh and original information to write plenty of books. After all it is not unusual for me to read and study for up to 12 hours a day. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by JohnR7

[RonaldBruno]

12 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

That is a good question, you just know. Actually my spiritual eyes are really not open that much. So what I saw was not that clear. Compared to the dream I had that was very vivid. Also I got a huge amount of information from my dream. For example when I saw my daughter there were maybe 50 or 60 brand new toys that were still in the box. I wondered why she did not take them out of the box to play with them. Later on I found out that those toys were gifts from relatives in Heaven who had visited her. The gift was to remind her of their visit. I did not have a gift for her and I found out she asked the angel about that. He did not know but later on when my son went to Heaven and he went to visit her, he told her who I was. And on & on & on. 

So the dream  goes on and I keep learning more about that dream over time. But my experience with Paul - not so much. I asked a question. The angel told me that Paul would answer my question personally and in an instant I was there "talking" to Paul. The reason is that EVERYONE, esp Paul is VERY interested in this time that we are living in. The Kingdoms of this world are becoming the Kingdom of God. Even Abraham looked forward and saw this day & time that we are living in. For the next 1,000 years people will study their history book and have more regard for the next 10 years then they have for even Pentecost and the beginning of the church that we hold in very high regard today. 

The other experience I had like this was when the Matriarch of my family wanted to ask my mom a question  about me. She wanted to know what my gifts, talents and abilities are. They do not talk about you behind your back in Heaven so I was caught up and she took me with her to talk to my mom. I did not say anything, I was just aware that they were having a conversation about me. Again not  alot of information there. Not enough to write a book about. But I could write a lot of books. God is eternal and our learning goes on and on. For example David in Psalm 139:16 talks about the book that God writes about our life. That has to do with the gifts, talents and abilities God give us at conception to bring Him praise, honor and glory. So we could maybe write a whole book about that. Easily I could write a whole book about Psalm 139:16 because I continue to learn the meaning of what David is telling us. This is tied in with Rev 20:12 when we are told "the books were opened". Maybe it would take a lot more than just a book to explain that scripture. Can you image all the books written about all the people that have ever lived or were ever conceived?  

I actually flunked English Grammar in College. I did all the work she asked me to do so I do not think it was fair that I had to take that class over again. The second time I did all the same stuff as the first time I took the class and he gave me a C. So I do not think I would be very good at writing books but I am sure I could come up with enough fresh and original information to write plenty of books. After all it is not unusual for me to read and study for up to 12 hours a day. 

Toys made in heaven ... eternal toys - never thought that there would be toys - what a concept ... as long as we don't see "Made in China"!

Angels and people don't know the future, so they are curious ... "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' 

Thanks for sharing.

 

[JohnR7]

2 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

Toys made in heaven ... eternal toys - never thought that there would be toys - what a concept ... as long as we don't see "Made in China"!

They say that stuff is invented in Heaven before it comes to the earth. So the toys are a lot like the toys here only more advanced. I do not know how that works out with having a spiritual body there instead of the physical body we have here. 

[RonaldBruno]

30 minutes ago, JohnR7 said:

 I do not know how that works out with having a spiritual body there instead of the physical body we have here. 

 Christ appeared in solid physical form, then disappeared - it's a muti-dimensional existence. Abraham's bosom is exactly that, meaning  we'll have all the senses and more.

[JohnR7]

8 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

 Christ appeared in solid physical form, then disappeared - it's a muti-dimensional existence. Abraham's bosom is exactly that, meaning  we'll have all the senses and more.

Clearly Jesus was resurrected. His physical body was raised up from the grave. We are told there were 500 people resurrected when He died at Calvary. We are told that He emptied Abraham's bosom out and those people are in Heaven now. Although there is very little written in the Bible about what happened to those 500.  In Heaven we are told we leave our physical body here on the earth to "sleep". Our Spiritual body and our soul goes to Heaven.  

[not an echo]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/25/2020 at 12:05 AM, not an echo said:

I can agree with you on some of what you are saying, especially concerning all the saved "being counted as the seed of Abraham" and "It's has always been grace" and "grace will save everyone." Yes!   Beyond this, I hope I'm not reading into what you are saying more than is there, but yours seems to me to be a very curious and precarious position.  I say precarious, because whatever we are believing about any subject in the Bible, our understanding must harmonize with everything the Bible says on the subject.  And, concerning the Church, I'm just not able to get a good handle on what you are seeing and saying concerning it---other than negativism and the dismissing of it.

My use of the phrase Christian Church has nothing to do with anything other than trying to convey that I am speaking of the New Testament Church, or the Church of which 3000 unsaved Israelites became a part on the Day of Pentecost, or simply the Church that is spoken of so much in the New Testament.  I have gotten kinda in the habit of using this qualifer so that I don't have to come back and comment on what Stephen said in Acts 7 concerning "the church in the wilderness" (vs. 38).  And now, it looks like I've done gone and got myself into another tangle!  But please note, I never said anything about a "christian church of the age of grace."  All the "age of grace" and "age of law" terminology is not me.  I am not an echo.   But, I'm all fine with talking about the Old Testament and the New Testament or the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.  And, with that understanding, I feel that my statement, "In connection with God's covenant promise to Abraham, God used the Israelite Nation (in connection with the Old Testament) and now is using the Christian Church (in connection with the New Testament) to effect this end" represents a solid biblical statement relating to this subject.

Concerning Paul's parable of the Olive Tree, some things that stand out to me are these:  First of all, it is rooted in God's grace, and the trunk of the tree is the Abrahamic Covenant.  In the days of the Old Testament, because of the growth of the Israelite Nation, the biggest part of the branches on the tree were Israelites---by far.  But, there were also some Gentiles.  Corresponding to this, because of God's work of grafting and the growth of the Christian Church, the biggest part of the branches have become Gentiles---by far.  But, there have also been some Israelites.  And there is more, but I'm desirous to move on.

Now, this thing of grafting is kinda interesting and I believe there may be something here that will help us.  I don't know much about olive trees and the grafting of a wild olive branch into a domesticated olive tree.  But, with other trees, like an apple tree, if you graft a Gala branch into a Golden Delicious tree, you are gonna have Gala apples growing on the same tree with Golden Delicious apples.  Interestingly, the only thing that is gonna grow on the Gala branch is Galas.  You can even cut away the Golden Delicious branches and graft a bunch of Gala branches in and have mostly, and I guess conceivably, only Gala apples growing on the tree instead of Golden Delicious.  The trunk is fine with either.  And, we know that the Galas are gonna stay Galas and the Golden Delicious are gonna stay Golden Delicious.  But, they are all apples!  Kinda like with saved Israelites (Golden Delicious) and save Gentiles (Galas).  But, we are all humans (apples), or in this case, children of God (good apples)!  Of course, there are a lot of bad apples, but that's a different subject.

On the thing of saved Gentiles being considered "spiritual Israel,"  as long as it is realized that this is just in a spiritual sense, I believe I'm all alright with this thought, and Paul may have had this on his mind in his closing remarks to the Galatians (6:16).  I just don't understand all the majoring on this, without any balance concerning the Church.  The New Testament certainly majors on the church and how that a saved Jew becomes a part of this entity...oops, body (Eph. 1:22-23;  I Cor. 12:12-27).      

Expand  

I'm not dismissive of the 'church' concept. I'm opposed to the idea of the 'christian church' as distinct from God's word on the idea. When Paul says all in Christ are the seed of Abraham there is no distinction of any attribute other than 'in Christ'. Paul says there is no such thing as Jew or Gentile in Christ as all are one. That's the church. And it's not 'christian'; it's in Christ. Another distinction is any unbeliever changing their way to the mind of Christ is not of the 'christian church' but of the natural olive tree, in Christ, adopted into God's family, the seed of Abraham and not into some entity that cannot exist except for Root and Branch. The real problem is the elevation of the status of the 'christian church' to that which it is not given. 

The 'christian church' will find this out soon enough.

Hello again Diaste,

Beyond the other things I've said on this subject (which I certainly see as being scripturally solid), I've still not got a good handle on where you are coming from.  Perhaps your answer to this question will help me best:  Do you consider yourself a Christian?  I am not meaning to be facetious, for I am believing that you are a brother in Christ.  It's just easy to get the impression that you have some hang up about the term Christian.  With things that you have said, I could see you kinda wishing that this forum was named Worthy In Christ Forums or Worthy Seed of Abraham Forums, or maybe even Worthy Branch Of The Olive Tree Forums, all of which would be equally fine with me.  With the path you have taken in response to what I have said, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's words:  "strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  I fail to see what is to be gained by what you have said.

Whatever minors are being clung to relating to the foregoing, the major is that Paul said this in I Thessalonians 4:

 16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Evidences point to this happening just before (like minutes or hours before/the same day) the Day of the Lord begins, as he shows in the next verses, from I Thessalonians 5:

  1   But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This harmonizes with Acts 2:20 and the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31) and the event of the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and the sealing of some from "all the tribes" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 7:1-8) and the just gathered "great multitude" (Matt. 24:31/Rev. 7:9-17/I Thess. 4:17/II Thess. 2:1/I Cor. 15:51-54) and the cry of those that "shall not escape" (I Thess. 5:3/Rev. 6:15-17) and more.

If I have understood your position over the months, I have several lingering questions, like this one:  If the event of the rapture does not occur until the event of Christ's Second Advent, and if it is at this time that "those who are alive and remain" will escape, from what will those who are finally escaping escape---the Battle of Armageddon?

Or this one:  Is the 1st Vial (or the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Vials) of God's wrath poured out before Christ's Second Advent---before the escape of "those who are alive and remain"?

Or this one:  Do you think that the escape of "those who are alive and remain" and Christ's Second Advent, happens concurrent with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

To again state concisely what I see as harmonizing with Scripture, the rapture will happen at the opening of the 6th Seal.  We know that a trumpet will sound at this time because of what Jesus says in Matthew 24:31 and what Paul says in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessalonians 4:16.  We can safely deduce that this "Last Trump" or "Trump of God" is not the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15, for such a hypothesis would have the 7th Seal still unopened and the Seven Sealed Book (or even the 7th section if it be so) still sealed shut.  Further, because evidences abound that the first four seals were opened as early as the first century, and the 5th Seal relatively recently, this leaves the 6th Seal, which can be opened at any time.  These things, and much more, support the subject of this thread, which is The Imminence of Christ's Return for the Rapture of the Church.  For some basic scriptures and thoughts relating to this, I would encourage you (and all) to look once again at my opening post.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

On 9/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, not an echo said:

Hello again Diaste,

Beyond the other things I've said on this subject (which I certainly see as being scripturally solid), I've still not got a good handle on where you are coming from.  Perhaps your answer to this question will help me best:  Do you consider yourself a Christian?  I am not meaning to be facetious, for I am believing that you are a brother in Christ.  It's just easy to get the impression that you have some hang up about the term Christian.  With things that you have said, I could see you kinda wishing that this forum was named Worthy In Christ Forums or Worthy Seed of Abraham Forums, or maybe even Worthy Branch Of The Olive Tree Forums, all of which would be equally fine with me.  With the path you have taken in response to what I have said, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's words:  "strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  I fail to see what is to be gained by what you have said.

It's not the word itself. I don't have any emotions about it and I don't object to people labeling themselves one thing or another even if I don't agree. It's just a judgement call based on observation. A clinical diagnosis, if you will.

The term means 'of Christ' or 'follower of Christ' Right off the bat that cannot fit the vast number who lay claim to it. Maybe it meant something, and in general the idea was accurate, back when the Gentiles first coined the label at Antioch but today it's more a title than a spiritual reality. 

And maybe it's trust issues for me. These modern 'Christians' have abused me personally in the past and continue to do so. Even though I have much thicker skin now it's still a bit painful. I listen to sermons regularly and then check the pontificating against the scripture references given by the speaker. It's many times found to be lacking when all the relevant scripture is taken into account. Seems these politicos can talk for an hour and a half but can't take the time to regard at least 3 relevant scriptures about the topic and speak the whole truth.

So it's very difficult for me to see what is so 'follower of Christ' about some claiming the title of  Christian when the teachings do not align with scripture. So that is not 'follower of Christ' when the dogma supersedes the Way the Truth and the Life. This is the main reason I no longer trust in the word of man and gauge everything that is said through a quick study of scripture.

I have a good friend of many years who is a pastor in the AOG. He teaches the tithe to the congregation. This is incorrect in light of NT teaching on giving. The tithe is of compulsion and not willingness on the part of the individual. I have brought it up more than once and the conversation just ends. Pity.

So whose fault is this condition in which we find the 'Christians'? The leaders for their demagoguery? The congregants for their laziness? The evil and desperately wicked heart of mankind? We have fallen very far from Christ. 

On 9/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, not an echo said:

Whatever minors are being clung to relating to the foregoing, the major is that Paul said this in I Thessalonians 4:

 16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:  and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:  and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Evidences point to this happening just before (like minutes or hours before/the same day) the Day of the Lord begins, as he shows in the next verses, from I Thessalonians 5:

  1   But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

This harmonizes with Acts 2:20 and the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31) and the event of the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-17) and the sealing of some from "all the tribes" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 7:1-8) and the just gathered "great multitude" (Matt. 24:31/Rev. 7:9-17/I Thess. 4:17/II Thess. 2:1/I Cor. 15:51-54) and the cry of those that "shall not escape" (I Thess. 5:3/Rev. 6:15-17) and more.

I agree.

On 9/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, not an echo said:

If I have understood your position over the months, I have several lingering questions, like this one:  If the event of the rapture does not occur until the event of Christ's Second Advent, and if it is at this time that "those who are alive and remain" will escape, from what will those who are finally escaping escape---the Battle of Armageddon?

This seems like a mix of ideas. I guess you'd have to clarify "those who are alive and remain, escape". I don't think I can see this:

"So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man."

And this:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

as either equivalent in time, space, effect, cause or outcome. Maybe they are and I'm just missing it but I don't think so. The escape in Luke is not associated with the coming of the Lord where those 'who are alive and remain' is in 1 Thess 4.

 

On 9/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, not an echo said:

Or this one:  Is the 1st Vial (or the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Vials) of God's wrath poured out before Christ's Second Advent---before the escape of "those who are alive and remain"?

I think previous statements I have made answer this. But no, they would not be poured out before the 2nd Coming but are a consequence of the Lord's return.

On 9/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, not an echo said:

Or this one:  Do you think that the escape of "those who are alive and remain" and Christ's Second Advent, happens concurrent with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

The 'gathering' of those who are alive and remain and the Coming are near in time/space. The Lord obviously returns at the 6th seal. The only 'last trump' in all of scripture that is associated with the end of the age and the return of the Lord and the gathering of the elect is the 7th trump in Rev 11. The 6th seal and the 7th trump are connected in time/space and conditions/events. 

On 9/30/2020 at 10:11 PM, not an echo said:

To again state concisely what I see as harmonizing with Scripture, the rapture will happen at the opening of the 6th Seal.  We know that a trumpet will sound at this time because of what Jesus says in Matthew 24:31 and what Paul says in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessalonians 4:16.  We can safely deduce that this "Last Trump" or "Trump of God" is not the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15, for such a hypothesis would have the 7th Seal still unopened and the Seven Sealed Book (or even the 7th section if it be so) still sealed shut.  Further, because evidences abound that the first four seals were opened as early as the first century, and the 5th Seal relatively recently, this leaves the 6th Seal, which can be opened at any time.  These things, and much more, support the subject of this thread, which is The Imminence of Christ's Return for the Rapture of the Church.  For some basic scriptures and thoughts relating to this, I would encourage you (and all) to look once again at my opening post.

I think we can go back to the title here and not the reality. It is not the demand of scripture the trumps are born of the final seal; that's an old pretrib doctrine that really doesn't have a foundation.

From this, "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets." the trumps as a result of the opening of the 7th seal is not warranted. That connection is not made akin to the many examples where a clear connection is made. But even in the language of Rev 8:1-2 the only connection is the silence in heaven as a result of the opening of the 7th seal.  Just because it's recorded that John 'And I saw..." does not carry the conclusion of, "7th seal therefore trumps". In this case correlation does not equal causation. What would the eschatological pundits of the world say if Rev 8 began "And I saw..." instead of "When the Lamb..."?

As examples obviously these are successive:

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet,", "Then the second angel sounded his trumpet,", ""Then the third angel sounded his trumpet,", "Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet,"

This sort of language does not appear in Rev 11:1-2. It seems to me the scripture clearly says silence follows the opening of the 7th seal, not mentioning trumps ergo; the silence is the result of the 7th seal here, not trumps.

Rev 11:15-19 also disputes the idea the trumps are born of the 7th seal since wrath has come at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump. As does Joel 1 where we see the coexistence of the effects of the 1st trump and the A of D. This would be before, or at the same time as the 5th seal.
 

 

[JoeCanada]

On 7/4/2020 at 7:59 PM, not an echo said:

 

1   But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   FOR YOURSELVES KNOW PERFECTLY that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

  3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape.

  4   BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.

 

Hi not an echo,

I've read the last couple of pages.....and now I have once again read your OP.

This caught my eye.....

" For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape."

Who are the "THEY"?.....Are "THEY" the Jews, the unsaved Jews? 

If this is the case, then when did they ever say "Peace and safety". It wouldn't have been in the 1st century, since they were always looking over their shoulder. And after the destruction of the temple and their disbanding to other nations......Israel was no more. Not until 1948. 

So the question obviously is...... If there has not yet been a time when "they shall say Peace and safety"......then Christ's coming could not ever be imminent until this proclamation is met.

What do you think?

[JohnR7]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:32 AM, RonaldBruno said:

Abraham's bosom is exactly that, meaning  we'll have all the senses and more.

I have seen the bottomless pit and what I saw was a volcano. My spiritual eyes were not open and I did not see anything in the spiritual. I only saw the physical. This is what we read in Revelation 9:2 "The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss". There are things going on that we can see in the physical so we can know that there is a spiritual world that we do not see if our spiritual eyes have not been opened. 

Our spiritual man we are told does have the same five senses that our physical body has.