Is faith a work ?

[Faithwilldo]

35 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

The majority of what we read in Bible concerning Hell deals with the grave our physical bodies are buried in.   Peter does speak of a place where the "Fallen Angels" who took human wives and produced Nephilim are now being kept chained and locked into complete darkness until they are tossed into the Lake of Fire.   I have no issue with not believing in a physical Hell but would have to deny the Lazarus/rich man story, and where Christ took the keys from Satan.   But the Lake of Fire is a setting where we see all of the major players of Evil ending up including Death and the Grave.   If we add those who chose to DENY God, we have the complete final Judgement setting.   So let's look at something specific here.

 

God has given humanity since Adam a chance to follow Him.   Indeed He chose a specific people, the Hebrews, but when we read the Old Testament these Hebrews were always discussing their God to those who masters of them, to those who were friends of them, to those who the Hebrews conquered.   We read Books like Ruth, Rahab and others who were able to convert to Yahweh.   Even at the time of Christ we see Gentiles who were converted to the Law of Moses.   And then Christ sent out His own Disciples to the unknown world (where we read Paul comes into play).   Even the past 2,000 years we have had access to the Gospel.   So God has always kept a way for everyone to accept Him and become one of His.   This is why it is difficult to accept your understanding of the Lake of Fire view.   I did look up Smith's Bible Truth's and it is a 50/50 yes/no if i find his interpretations to be spot on.

 

I just do not see anywhere in the Bible that tells me those who do end up in the Lake of Fire are getting another chance.   And as far as the Muslim boy, they believe Christ is a Prophet just like Mohammed.   They know what the Jews believe because they are mortal enemies.   The Muslims actually hold Christ to a more esteem than the majority of the Jews do.  And there are many converted Muslims to Christianity.   So I would imagine this young boy is well aware of both side.   They are taught from a very young age and are extremely knowledgeable about Christianity.

 

I wish you the best.   It's good to hear from God.   But it was Christ Himself who showed John the vision of Revelation's.  It's hard for me to believe He would go against His own Word for this new idealism.

No one has a "chance" to follow Christ since we all have a carnal mind from birth which hates God.  Also, scripture says that no one seeks after God.  So unless Christ comes to us each individually and give us "gifts", we would never be saved.  

Rom 3:10-11  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Do you believe that Christ is going to abandon most of mankind and not give them the gifts necessary for their salvation?  Scripture says that no one can come to Christ on their own, the Father must draw them.  Here is what scripture says about that:

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Are the statements by Christ not true?  Is He not really going to come to all mankind someday and draw them to Himself?  And if He draws them to Himself, will He really not accept them but cast them out?

These verses are easy to understand but for many, they are difficult to believe because it conflicts with what they have been told.  And what they have been told is easy to accept because their carnal nature is in control of their minds.  This verse applies:

Rev 10:9  And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

The lies of Satan taste good to our carnal nature but as we digest these lies, it kills us.  That is how Satan kills the saints.  It is not a physical death but a spiritual death.

Is this verse also untrue:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I suggest you believe these verses and then look to find out how Christ will fulfill them.  His plan for saving all mankind is in scripture for one who diligently searches for the answer but you have to search for them as for hidden treasure:

Prov 2:1-5  My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding;  yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. 

Christ really is not some monster who would torment in fire most of His children for all eternity and for no redeeming purpose, void of love and mercy.  That is who Satan is.  Would you ever do that to your child or would you do what is necessary to save them?  

Joe

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Guest theElect777]

15 minutes ago, Faithwilldo said:

No one has a "chance" to follow Christ since we all have a carnal mind from birth which hates God.  Also, scripture says that no one seeks after God.  So unless Christ comes to us each individually and give us "gifts", we would never be saved.  

Rom 3:10-11  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 11:29  For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Do you believe that Christ is going to abandon most of mankind and not give them the gifts necessary for their salvation?  Scripture says that no one can come to Christ on their own, the Father must draw them.  Here is what scripture says about that:

John 3:35  The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:32  And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Are the statements by Christ not true?  Is He not really going to come to all mankind someday and draw them to Himself?  And if He draws them to Himself, will He really not accept them but cast them out?

These verses are easy to understand but for many, they are difficult to believe because it conflicts with what they have been told.  And what they have been told is easy to accept because their carnal nature is in control of their minds.  This verse applies:

Rev 10:9  And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.

The lies of Satan taste good to our carnal nature but as we digest these lies, it kills us.  That is how Satan kills the saints.  It is not a physical death but a spiritual death.

Is this verse also untrue:

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I suggest you believe these verses and then look to find out how Christ will fulfill them.  His plan for saving all mankind is in scripture for one who diligently searches for the answer but you have to search for them as for hidden treasure:

Prov 2:1-5  My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding;  yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. 

Christ really is not some monster who would torment in fire most of His children for all eternity and for no redeeming purpose, void of love and mercy.  That is who Satan is.  Would you ever do that to your child or would you do what is necessary to save them?  

Joe

 

 

 

This is true.   But my example of how the Hebrews lived under Pharaoh, we have Daniel and Jeremiah while the Hebrews were slaves, and all throughout we see where Moses, the Prophets were great examples to the slave masters.   And just like Ruth chose to stay, all throughout the Old Testament many had chances to convert or believe in Yahweh.    

 

If we look at the New Testament, Yeshua even claims the Gospel will be introduced to everyone before He returns.   This is the hearing portion that leads to the invite to accept Christ.   So it is happening more than you are conceiving.   With computers and smart phones, I see many forms of Christianity and other religions/beliefs.   That means non believers are seeing it to.   They are just ignoring it.   So there are no excuses!

[Faithwilldo]

30 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

This is true.   But my example of how the Hebrews lived under Pharaoh, we have Daniel and Jeremiah while the Hebrews were slaves, and all throughout we see where Moses, the Prophets were great examples to the slave masters.   And just like Ruth chose to stay, all throughout the Old Testament many had chances to convert or believe in Yahweh.    

 

If we look at the New Testament, Yeshua even claims the Gospel will be introduced to everyone before He returns.   This is the hearing portion that leads to the invite to accept Christ.   So it is happening more than you are conceiving.   With computers and smart phones, I see many forms of Christianity and other religions/beliefs.   That means non believers are seeing it to.   They are just ignoring it.   So there are no excuses!

Scripture says that no man can accept Christ unless He gives them gifts of faith and the Holy Spirit.  When He does this, they will accept Him just as you and I did.  They cannot overcome the will of God. 

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If someone is not saved in this present age, it is because Christ did not come to them.  

What about the people who lived before Christ and those that died at a very young age and those who lived isolated like the American Indians before Columbus?  How do they have a "chance" to be saved?  There is no provision for them in scripture because it is not necessary.  Their time will come in the final age.  

I hope you keep thinking about the scriptures I pointed out.  The Gospel of Christ is truly "good news" for everyone in this world.

Joe

Edited July 14, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Sower]

3 hours ago, Faithwilldo said:

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

As I said previously, God enabled me to receive His gift of salvation.
As did everybody else, whosoever will. Salvation 101.
But a gift is not forced. It is a gift.
Not every one chooses to receive this gift, as you know. (no changed thinking)
"Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian"
Hmm. Almost?
Quite a few years ago, I heard just a few verses of scripture I had never heard before.
I began to read and ask questions. And my thinking changed (I repented) and was eventually saved.
I had accepted His gift. By faith. What faith, where did it come from?
Faith comes by hearing.
repeat
Faith comes by hearing.
Hearing by the word.
I read/heard the word.
The life giving truth/light.
I believed what I read/heard.
Truth/light, removed the darkness.
God is light!
His light showed what I needed.
I believed.
Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
The End.....  (it is finished)


 

[Guest theElect777]

1 hour ago, Faithwilldo said:

Scripture says that no man can accept Christ unless He gives them gifts of faith and the Holy Spirit.  When He does this, they will accept Him just as you and I did.  They cannot overcome the will of God. 

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

If someone is not saved in this present age, it is because Christ did not come to them.  

What about the people who lived before Christ and those that died at a very young age and those who lived isolated like the American Indians before Columbus?  How do they have a "chance" to be saved?  There is no provision for them in scripture because it is not necessary.  Their time will come in the final age.  

I hope you keep thinking about the scriptures I pointed out.  The Gospel of Christ is truly "good news" for everyone in this world.

Joe

I have no problem with what you're saying concerning how God gives us a measure of Faith to believe in Him.   That is spot on truth.   I just don't see the connection that for possibly 100 billion people God is going to give them a second chance since they have lived and died.   That Christ is going present the Gospel to them and give them the faith to believe.   I believe we are predestined.   The Books of Life and Judgement were already written before God ever spoke the first thing into existence.   Solomon states that God knew him and played with him before time began and Creation took place.   If we are predestined, then I see that your claim is null and void.

Edited July 15, 2020 by theElect777

[Sower]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Are you aware the word "carnal" doesn't occur anywhere in the Greek manuscripts, Joe?

Do you use any translations beside the King James?

You got my curiosity up, Josheb.(I use KJV : )
I looked it up in my bible, KJV, and other versions.
Then went to the Strong's concordance also.

Strong's G4559 - sarkikos

fleshly, carnal

having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites

governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God

having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature

human: with the included idea of depravity

pertaining to the flesh

Do you believe this changes any meaning that is inferred in the KJV?
Or, are you saying those verses with the word 'carnal' do not exist.
I have thought it was just a lost, or corrupted mind, carnal, 
like the definitions above, not in line with the mind of God.?
I have read other translations.
Babies, fleshly, worldly, infants, men of flesh, worldly people, people still influenced by their corrupt nature etc.
Seems to mean the same to me. Perhaps I missing something?
Thanks for your reply....

 

[Renniks]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:51 PM, Wayne222 said:

Jesus said this is the work of God that you believe in The one he sent. If only we would accept that Jesus did all the work for salvation. Our part is to trust him.

Isn't saying that we have to trust and accept Jesus confirming that faith is not a work? 

 

26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”

28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”

32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”

35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 

 

I view Jesus' reply as being sort of a play on words. They ask what work they have to do and he says: "Believe". After all, this was where the Jews of that time missed it. They thought they could obtain salvation by works. (See the whole book of Romans.) So, what is the Godly work they must do? They wanted a sign, they wanted to do something great themselves to be given eternal life and Jesus is basically saying: "The answer is right in front of you, you are looking at him and you still aren't doing the only thing you have to do, that is, believe I'm the Messiah. It wasn't a work at all that they needed, but trust in Jesus.

[JohnD]

Nope.

Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;  ← and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Faithwilldo]

13 hours ago, theElect777 said:

I have no problem with what you're saying concerning how God gives us a measure of Faith to believe in Him.   That is spot on truth.   I just don't see the connection that for possibly 100 billion people God is going to give them a second chance since they have lived and died.   That Christ is going present the Gospel to them and give them the faith to believe.   I believe we are predestined.   The Books of Life and Judgement were already written before God ever spoke the first thing into existence.   Solomon states that God knew him and played with him before time began and Creation took place.   If we are predestined, then I see that your claim is null and void.

ONLY the Elect in this present age are predestined to be First Fruits.  They are the early and best portion of the harvest.  They are few in number.  As for the rest of mankind, Christ will save them at the end of the growing season (final age).  He is the good farmer and He will bring in a full harvest.  The Feast of Tabernacles symbolizes this final harvest.  At this time, Christ will call out to the lost:

 John 7:37-38  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The Bride of Christ is the Elect, the First Fruits.  Christ's call to the lost occurs at the end of the final age - it occurs at the consummation (end) of all the ages.

1 Cor 15:20-28  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.  Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You say that man has a "choice" to decide to act on the faith that Christ gives us but the "choice" we make is caused by God. 

Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Prov 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24  Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

1 Tim 2:3-6  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ clearly says that He will save all mankind and He even says that He is the cause behind the choice that we make.  Mankind does not have a "free will".  Most people reject those verses and claim that Christ would never force anyone to accept Him and that is true.  When you accepted Christ, did you feel like He forced you?  I'm sure you would say no.  So how did He cause you to accept Him?  As the scripture says, He prepared your heart and gave you the answer from your tongue.  He caused your "will" to conform to His "will", not by force but by giving you His Spirit.  And just like Paul on the Damascus Road, you immediately accepted Him as Lord.  When Christ comes to anyone and gives them His spiritual gifts, they too will immediately accept Him because He prepared their hearts to receive Him.

Dan 4:35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? 

Any supposed "free will" effort on our part to add to Christ's work of saving us is not supported in scripture.  In fact, scripture says the opposite - no man can boast about their salvation because it was 100% the work of Christ.  To claim as you do that mankind has the ability to make a free will "choice" to accept Christ after He gives us His spiritual gifts is not supported by any scripture.  In fact, that understanding conflicts with many scriptures.  If you won't accept those scriptures, then there is nothing more I can say and we probably don't need to continue this discussion. 

Joe 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Faithwilldo

[Faithwilldo]

18 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Once again, the KJV has not rendered the Greek well. The Greek states, "This is good and acceptable before the Savior of us all God who all men desires to be saved and to [the] knowledge and to [the] truth to come." This is what the Textus Receptus, from which the KJV is taken, states. It does not say God would will have all men to be saved. 

This warrants clarification: Are you a subscriber to universalism or apokatastasis? 

Job 23:13  But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. 

Isa 46:10-11  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:  Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.