Questions to discuss

[LastTrump Ministry]

I am new to this site so not sure how it even works yet. I have been studying biblical prophecy for the past 40 years though and have settled even 40 years ago after being taught a pretrib rapture doctrine since 1956 as I became a man I put away childless thoughts and took the scriptures for what they said. I became a prewrath  believer even before I had heard the phase or saw the book. There are a few question that I have wrestled with many years. I have talked to many Bible scholars across the globe. Some to big to mention and none of their answers were biblical enough for me but were opinions which I don’t regard to high, theirs or mine.

1. Does the wrath of GOD include the trumpet judgements with the 7 bowls of wrath and if so what scriptures prove that?

2. Why is not the 7th trumpet judgement not the rapture and the bowls the beginning of the 7th seal? (Trumpets not in included) 

3. If the 7 feast of the LORD was given as a pattern of His first coming as in the Spring feast to the day and very hour as a the Lamb of GOD to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost and to Jerusalem (Zec 9:9 as a King) riding on a colt. Why does it seem all prophecy teachers ignore the last 3 Spring Feast of Trumpets, (the day no man knows the day or hour) or the “10 days of awe) between that day and the Day of Atonement? Or the feast of Tabernacles which all take place in a 21-22 day period. Did GOD just forget about them? No. Then where do they fit into most people’s second coming on a Horse as King, Judge and Executor? 

4.  Is not the return of Yeshua  a event that occurs over these 21-22 DAYS OF THE LORD in a coming in the air rapture and a 10 days of the wrath of GOD followed by a return As King on the DAY OF ATONEMENT? The feast of Tabernacles would start the 1,000 year of Tabernacling on earth with man? I don’t claim my perspective is 100% right but I see few mention or include it into their view of prophecy? 

5. I personally believe in a second coming rapture before the 7 bowls of wrath. I do not believe they last months or years? I don’t see or think that the GOD who created the earth and what the eye can see would take year or months to pour out His wrath nor could the earth endure it for months or years. There will be no fight between him, Satan or the world but a slaughter just at his coming. The Creator does not lower Himself to battle with what he has created the devil included. That is left to Micheal who has always been the contender and restrainer against him for GODS people.   

6. I do not believe the term “except those days be shortened” that Tribulation is shortened or his coming or the 7 years. Shortened means if it was extended beyond that man and Satan would destroy the earth and all mankind. When GOD says, 42, 1260, or 7 years he means it. 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I am new to this site so not sure how it even works yet. I have been studying biblical prophecy for the past 40 years though and have settled even 40 years ago after being taught a pretrib rapture doctrine since 1956 as I became a man I put away childless thoughts and took the scriptures for what they said. I became a prewrath  believer even before I had heard the phase or saw the book. There are a few question that I have wrestled with many years. I have talked to many Bible scholars across the globe. Some to big to mention and none of their answers were biblical enough for me but were opinions which I don’t regard to high, theirs or mine.

1. Does the wrath of GOD include the trumpet judgements with the 7 bowls of wrath and if so what scriptures prove that?

2. Why is not the 7th trumpet judgement not the rapture and the bowls the beginning of the 7th seal? (Trumpets not in included) 

3. If the 7 feast of the LORD was given as a pattern of His first coming as in the Spring feast to the day and very hour as a the Lamb of GOD to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost and to Jerusalem (Zec 9:9 as a King) riding on a colt. Why does it seem all prophecy teachers ignore the last 3 Spring Feast of Trumpets, (the day no man knows the day or hour) or the “10 days of awe) between that day and the Day of Atonement? Or the feast of Tabernacles which all take place in a 21-22 day period. Did GOD just forget about them? No. Then where do they fit into most people’s second coming on a Horse as King, Judge and Executor? 

4.  Is not the return of Yeshua  a event that occurs over these 21-22 DAYS OF THE LORD in a coming in the air rapture and a 10 days of the wrath of GOD followed by a return As King on the DAY OF ATONEMENT? The feast of Tabernacles would start the 1,000 year of Tabernacling on earth with man? I don’t claim my perspective is 100% right but I see few mention or include it into their view of prophecy? 

5. I personally believe in a second coming rapture before the 7 bowls of wrath. I do not believe they last months or years? I don’t see or think that the GOD who created the earth and what the eye can see would take year or months to pour out His wrath nor could the earth endure it for months or years. There will be no fight between him, Satan or the world but a slaughter just at his coming. The Creator does not lower Himself to battle with what he has created the devil included. That is left to Micheal who has always been the contender and restrainer against him for GODS people.   

6. I do not believe the term “except those days be shortened” that Tribulation is shortened or his coming or the 7 years. Shortened means if it was extended beyond that man and Satan would destroy the earth and all mankind. When GOD says, 42, 1260, or 7 years he means it. 

1) No.

2) If I understand you; I believe it is, they are, as you said.

3) Because Jewish tradition has nothing to do with eschatology.

4) No.

5) I don't see a question but, I think I agree; reservedly.

6) Depends on how one defines the terms. 

[LastTrump Ministry]

I must reply to your one answer and hope others will have some imput. I could not disagree more strongly with your statement, 3) Because Jewish tradition has nothing to do with eschatology.“

I hope that is a misprint? You are kidding right? Everything about the Bible has Jewish roots including what we now call “Christianity”? Just for starters to get back to the 7 feast of the LORD (YAHEW), they were giving by YAHEW Himself as HIS days, His appointed times, His patterns for Yeshua’s first and second coming as a Lamb then yet as King. He fulfilled the 4 Spring feast to not only the day but the hour? And you tell me YAHEW the Creator gave 7 feast days as patterns He called the “LORDS FEAST DAYS. Not Jew or gentile but HIS. You can do away with the LORDS days when it comes to future prophecy because you can’t fit them into your doctrine? Or GOD has rejected the Jewish nation forever. I mean this would take a book of all the Jewish customs that are positioning to endtime events.. for one the five wise and five foolish virgins? That is all a Jewish custom of a wedding pointing to the endtime church? That is one among hundreds of examples. Only thing I can figure in your answer you are either anti-Semitic or just plain stupid when it come to the Bible that is COMPLETELY Jewish? Even believers are spiritual Jews grafted into the natural vine. Mercy if this whole site is like this I need to delete it quick? Do you people agree with this heretic?   

[The Light]

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I am new to this site so not sure how it even works yet.

Welcome aboard.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I have been studying biblical prophecy for the past 40 years though and have settled even 40 years ago after being taught a pretrib rapture doctrine since 1956 as I became a man I put away childless thoughts and took the scriptures for what they said.

I would like to believe that you are willing to let the scripture speak for itself.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I became a prewrath  believer even before I had heard the phase or saw the book.

So did I. Then the scripture kept speaking for itself.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

There are a few question that I have wrestled with many years. I have talked to many Bible scholars across the globe. Some to big to mention and none of their answers were biblical enough for me but were opinions which I don’t regard to high, theirs or mine.

I see you have some wisdom.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

1. Does the wrath of GOD include the trumpet judgements with the 7 bowls of wrath and if so what scriptures prove that?

The trumpet judgments are the wrath of God. The seven vials are just a different view of the trumpets. In other words, wrath is over at the 7th trumpet when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our God. Wrath begins when the 1st trumpet sounds and ends when the 7th trumpet sounds. Bowls just a different view of the wrath.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

2. Why is not the 7th trumpet judgement not the rapture and the bowls the beginning of the 7th seal? (Trumpets not in included) 

The 7th trumpet judgment is not the rapture. The pre wrath rapture takes place at the 6th seal. The bowls can be the beginning of the 7th seal as they are just a different view of the trumpets.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

 

3. If the 7 feast of the LORD was given as a pattern of His first coming as in the Spring feast to the day and very hour as a the Lamb of GOD to fulfill Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits, Pentecost and to Jerusalem (Zec 9:9 as a King) riding on a colt. Why does it seem all prophecy teachers ignore the last 3 FALL (Corrected) Feast of Trumpets, (the day no man knows the day or hour) or the “10 days of awe) between that day and the Day of Atonement? Or the feast of Tabernacles which all take place in a 21-22 day period. Did GOD just forget about them? No. Then where do they fit into most people’s second coming on a Horse as King, Judge and Executor? 

I know that most people teach that the spring feasts were fulfilled by Christ, but have you seen a harvest? The spring feasts include both the barley harvest and the wheat harvest. You might think on these things.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

4.  Is not the return of Yeshua  a event that occurs over these 21-22 DAYS OF THE LORD in a coming in the air rapture and a 10 days of the wrath of GOD followed by a return As King on the DAY OF ATONEMENT? The feast of Tabernacles would start the 1,000 year of Tabernacling on earth with man? I don’t claim my perspective is 100% right but I see few mention or include it into their view of prophecy? 

I'm thinking that you believe that the rapture of the Church will occur at the last trump which is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. There will be a harvest then. It is the fall fruit harvest usually signified by grapes. There will be a harvest on that harvest feast and if you let the scripture speak for itself I'm sure you will figure out what the harvest is. BTW. This is also the harvest at the coming of Jesus in Rev 14.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

5. I personally believe in a second coming rapture before the 7 bowls of wrath. I do not believe they last months or years? I don’t see or think that the GOD who created the earth and what the eye can see would take year or months to pour out His wrath nor could the earth endure it for months or years. There will be no fight between him, Satan or the world but a slaughter just at his coming. The Creator does not lower Himself to battle with what he has created the devil included. That is left to Micheal who has always been the contender and restrainer against him for GODS people.   

The wrath of God will last for time, times and half a time. Three and a half years.

Dan 12

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

4 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

6. I do not believe the term “except those days be shortened” that Tribulation is shortened or his coming or the 7 years. Shortened means if it was extended beyond that man and Satan would destroy the earth and all mankind. When GOD says, 42, 1260, or 7 years he means it. 

Matt 24

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This verse is not saying that if the days were not shortened, all mankind would be destroyed. It is saying, if the days of the great tribulation were not shortened there should be no flesh saved. In other words, there would be NO FLESH CAUGHT UP ALIVE TO SALVATION at that rapture. All the believers would be killed and the rapture would only have the dead caught up.

[The Light]

1 hour ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I must reply to your one answer and hope others will have some imput. I could not disagree more strongly with your statement, 3) Because Jewish tradition has nothing to do with eschatology.“

I hope that is a misprint? You are kidding right? Everything about the Bible has Jewish roots including what we now call “Christianity”? Just for starters to get back to the 7 feast of the LORD (YAHEW), they were giving by YAHEW Himself as HIS days, His appointed times, His patterns for Yeshua’s first and second coming as a Lamb then yet as King. He fulfilled the 4 Spring feast to not only the day but the hour? And you tell me YAHEW the Creator gave 7 feast days as patterns He called the “LORDS FEAST DAYS. Not Jew or gentile but HIS. You can do away with the LORDS days when it comes to future prophecy because you can’t fit them into your doctrine? Or GOD has rejected the Jewish nation forever. I mean this would take a book of all the Jewish customs that are positioning to endtime events.. for one the five wise and five foolish virgins? That is all a Jewish custom of a wedding pointing to the endtime church? That is one among hundreds of examples. Only thing I can figure in your answer you are either anti-Semitic or just plain stupid when it come to the Bible that is COMPLETELY Jewish? Even believers are spiritual Jews grafted into the natural vine. Mercy if this whole site is like this I need to delete it quick? Do you people agree with this heretic?   

The Jewish feasts are a picture of what will happen on this earth. Soon the barley and wheat harvest will occur, barley first followed by wheat.

[LastTrump Ministry]

LOL

[LastTrump Ministry]

44 minutes ago, SONshine said:

@LastTrump Ministry  

Regarding your 6th question, I’m sure you’ve read the following scriptures, but I’ll post them anyway.  It’s pretty clear.
 

Matthew 24:20-24 King James Version (KJV)

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

²³ Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

²⁴ For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Yep one of my favorite chapters which I have read and studied in English and Geek thousands of times..not sure what your point is?

[Diaste]

9 hours ago, LastTrump Ministry said:

I must reply to your one answer and hope others will have some imput. I could not disagree more strongly with your statement, 3) Because Jewish tradition has nothing to do with eschatology.“

I hope that is a misprint? You are kidding right? Everything about the Bible has Jewish roots including what we now call “Christianity”? Just for starters to get back to the 7 feast of the LORD (YAHEW), they were giving by YAHEW Himself as HIS days, His appointed times, His patterns for Yeshua’s first and second coming as a Lamb then yet as King. He fulfilled the 4 Spring feast to not only the day but the hour? And you tell me YAHEW the Creator gave 7 feast days as patterns He called the “LORDS FEAST DAYS. Not Jew or gentile but HIS. You can do away with the LORDS days when it comes to future prophecy because you can’t fit them into your doctrine? Or GOD has rejected the Jewish nation forever. I mean this would take a book of all the Jewish customs that are positioning to endtime events.. for one the five wise and five foolish virgins? That is all a Jewish custom of a wedding pointing to the endtime church? That is one among hundreds of examples. Only thing I can figure in your answer you are either anti-Semitic or just plain stupid when it come to the Bible that is COMPLETELY Jewish? Even believers are spiritual Jews grafted into the natural vine. Mercy if this whole site is like this I need to delete it quick? Do you people agree with this heretic?   

An interesting response. 

"Everything about the Bible has Jewish roots including what we now call “Christianity”? "

For starters, is this a question or a statement?  I think it's a statement. You're close but not quite right. The scriptures roots are in faith, the faith of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. Scripture says that if we are in Christ we are the seed of Abraham. Scripture says that we are grafted into the natural olive tree. That natural olive tree is spiritual Israel in the faith of Abraham, which are those in Christ. I don't even think 'christianity' is a thing since we are informed we are the seed of Abraham if we are indeed in Christ Jesus.

"He fulfilled the 4 Spring feast to not only the day but the hour". Maybe. You'd have to post scripture that says that. I know it's written Jesus came to fulfill all the law and the prophets. I'm convinced at least some of the ancient holy days were types and shadows of the Coming of the Lord and His time on earth in the 1st century. Things get a little out of hand when it's proposed the ancient Jewish holidays and Talmudic opinion are used to interpret eschatology. If you could, please present any scripture that shows a link between Jesus words, or the words of the Apostles, to the ancient Jewish traditions or the days of feasts and memorials in Leviticus, as a method of interpreting eschatological matters.

"Or GOD has rejected the Jewish nation forever."

I didn't even suggest such a thing. This is what I said:

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

3) Because Jewish tradition has nothing to do with eschatology.

Again, Jewish TRADITION has nothing to do with eschatology. Instead of a visceral response, prove me wrong with scripture; not rhetoric, not emotion, not the Talmud, SCRIPTURE.

"for one the five wise and five foolish virgins? That is all a Jewish custom of a wedding pointing to the endtime church?"

Yes. This is a parable and it shows the condition and psychology of those waiting for the return of the Lord. But the parable in no way interprets endtime prophecy. It's an exhortation to readiness and not being lazy and is an often repeated theme; "You don't know when I'm coming so make sure you're ready at all times."

"You can do away with the LORDS days when it comes to future prophecy because you can’t fit them into your doctrine?"

Of course not. I have asked this before, many times, and no evidence is found; Show me in the words of Jesus and the Apostles where we are to look to the past for the interpretation of eschatology.

"Then Jesus declared, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and then looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”"

"They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men. You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men."

"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."

This idea is another often repeated theme and I never see it coupled with looking to ancient times for instruction in personal behavior, psychology, world view or eschatological interpretation.

"Only thing I can figure in your answer you are either anti-Semitic or just plain stupid when it come to the Bible that is COMPLETELY Jewish"

Is this your position every time your questions are answered in a way you don't like? This sort of thing just isn't convincing. Attempts at shaming and unflattering, emotional observations are more of a commentary on your spirituality than on the spiritual walk of others.

"Mercy if this whole site is like this I need to delete it quick? "

Why? I mean, maybe you should. Acting outraged to gain sympathy is unbecoming. I have a feeling no one will care if you leave or stay. Keep up the personal attacks however and that will work itself out.

"Do you people agree with this heretic?"

A good example. Why are you so angry? 

 

 

 

 

[Justin Adams]

The scriptures are not and never have been 'Completely Jewish'. Abram was not a Jew. Enoch was not a Jew. Adam was not a Jew.

The list is long...

[Knotical]

Just to clear something up, the term "Jew" is actually stemming from only one tribe.  The tribe of Judah.  However, many people associate the entire nation of ancient Israel, incorrectly, to being Jewish.  The term "Jew" doesn't even start to appear until the New Testament.