COVID-19: Rev 6:8 and 9:18

[Fidei Defensor]

2 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Deacons are practical servants and elders are spiritual leaders.  The criteria are slightly different for these distinct offices.  It was not an administrative error for those who are called to minister the word of God, to focus on that, nor was it an administrative error to give trusted people the task of helping practically.  You can provide no evidence for your claim.

I have provided ample evidence of bad calls adminstratively and socially by the apostles in my posts. On theology, doctrine (doxology), christology, and Christian living the apostles are flawless (infallible), but on adminstatitive calls I see some bad calls. 

When Jesus made disciples he said not to be called anything but servant and brother: 

“6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi (teacher) by others.
8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. .” (Matthew 23:6-1

”25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,
28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

[David1701]

Just now, Fidei Defensor said:

I have provided ample evidence of bad calls adminstratively and socially by the apostles in my posts. On theology, doctrine (doxology), christology, and Christian living the apostles are flawless (infallible), but on adminstatitive calls I see some bad calls. 

When Jesus made disciples he said not to be called anything but servant and brother: 

“6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi (teacher) by others.
8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. .” (Matthew 23:6-1

”25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,
28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

You keep making the same mistake, over and over again.  Yes, of course we are all called to be servants; and offices are not titles.  I have already agreed with this more than once.  That is not the point.

Do you acknowledge that there are offices in the Church and that there are criteria for choosing people for those offices (i.e. elders and deacons)?

Do you acknowledge that the criteria, and therefore the functions, of those offices differ?

[Fidei Defensor]

1 minute ago, David1701 said:

You keep making the same mistake, over and over again.  Yes, of course we are all called to be servants; and offices are not titles.  I have already agreed with this more than once.  That is not the point.

Do you acknowledge that there are offices in the Church and that there are criteria for choosing people for those offices (i.e. elders and deacons)?

Do you acknowledge that the criteria, and therefore the functions, of those offices differ?

Scripture is diversw on weither men ought to elect orher men to offices: 

“This letter is from Paul, an apostle. I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.” (Galatians 1:1) 

“11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.
20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)
21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
23 They only were hearing it said, "He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."
24 And they glorified God because of me. “ (Galatians 1:11-24)

“The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? ...” (1 Timothy 3:1-16) 

“And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.” (Acts 14:23) 

“Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons.” (Philippians 1:1) 

Paul refused to come under an authority other than Christ, but there is the election of elders and deacons in his other letters. 

I believe all these Scriptures (above), but you see there are different approaches, Paul not being elected bu any man but elders and deacons are elected.  

[David1701]

6 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Scripture is diversw on weither men ought to elect orher men to offices: 

“This letter is from Paul, an apostle. I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.” (Galatians 1:1) 

“11 For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man's gospel.
12 For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord's brother.
20 (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)
21 Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22 And I was still unknown in person to the churches of Judea that are in Christ.
23 They only were hearing it said, "He who used to persecute us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy."
24 And they glorified God because of me. “ (Galatians 1:11-24)

“The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God's church? ...” (1 Timothy 3:1-16) 

“And when they had appointed elders for them in every church, with prayer and fasting they committed them to the Lord in whom they had believed.” (Acts 14:23) 

“Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons.” (Philippians 1:1) 

Paul refused to come under an authority other than Christ, but there is the election of elders and deacons in his other letters. 

I believe all these Scriptures (above), but you see there are different approaches, Paul not being elected bu any man but elders and deacons are elected.  

Scripture is not "diverse" about people appointing others to church offices!  Apostle is not an office to which someone can appoint someone else, nor are prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher.  These offices are gifts from God.

There are only two church offices to which people can appoint others: elders and deacons and we are given the criteria by which they are to be chosen.

I have already posted all this previously, but it appears that your mind is set and the facts will not shift it.  I hope this changes.

Elders (overseers)

1 Tim. 3:1-7 (VW)

1 This is a faithful saying: If a man aspires to the position of an overseer, he desires a good work.
2 An overseer then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, well ordered, hospitable, able to teach;
3 not a drunkard, not violent, not greedy for money, but fair-minded, not quarrelsome, not loving money;
4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in subjection with all respect
5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a new convert, that he not be puffed up with pride and fall into the same condemnation as the devil.
7 Moreover he must have a good testimony with those who are outside, that he not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Titus 1:5-9 (VW)

5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I assigned you:
6 If a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of loose behavior or disobedience.
7 For an overseer must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not prone to anger, not given to wine, not quarrelsome, not greedy for money,
8 but hospitable, a lover of what is good, of a sound mind, just, holy, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful Word according to the teaching, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.

Deacons

1 Tim. 3:8-13 (VW)

8 Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money,
9 holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.
10 But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless.
11 Likewise women must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.
12 Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Fidei Defensor]

4 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Scripture is not "diverse" about people appointing others to church offices!  Apostle is not an office to which someone can appoint someone else, nor are prophet, evangelist, pastor or teacher.  These offices are gifts from God.

There are only two church offices to which people can appoint others: elders and deacons and we are given the criteria by which they are to be chosen.

 

Interesting, so you saying the Five Offices (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher) are appointed by God, but Deacon and Elder (Overseee) are appointed by men because they are administrative offices rathee than spiritual ones; caring for the needs of the saints rather than educsting them on doctrine and etc. 

“Think on this I will.” 

[BeauJangles]

1 hour ago, Fidei Defensor said:

And it isn’t Ash Wednesday!  

Oh, man! That's hysterical! 

[BeauJangles]

1 hour ago, ChickenCoop said:

Did somebody say popcorn?

I love that! 

[David1701]

28 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

 

Interesting, so you saying the Five Offices (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher) are appointed by God, but Deacon and Elder (Overseee) are appointed by men because they are administrative offices rathee than spiritual ones; caring for the needs of the saints rather than educsting them on doctrine and etc. 

“Think on this I will.” 

That is not quite what I said.  Look this is very frustrating; please stop making unfounded assumptions about what the Bible teaches, or about what I post.

I did indeed say that the "five-fold ministry" gifts (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher) are gifts from God; but deacon and elder (overseer) are appointed by men; but I did not give a reason as to why that is.  The Bible states it, so we are to believe it.

I will now give what I believe to be the reasons why the five are not chosen by men; whereas, elders and deacons are. 

The five require miraculous enabling from God, to fulfil their special vocations, and the knowledge that this is what they are.  You do not choose to be one of the five, God chooses to make you that and gives you knowledge of the fact.  He also enables you to carry it out and puts that special burden on your heart. 

Elders and deacons do not require special, miraculous enabling, beyond that which is normal to born again Christians; but not all born again Christians will be suitable for these offices.  Since they are responsible and important functions, there are criteria for choosing them.

Edited July 23, 2020 by David1701
re-worded sentence but original word not removed

[Fidei Defensor]

46 minutes ago, David1701 said:

That is not quite what I said.  Look this is very frustrating; please stop making unfounded assumptions about what the Bible teaches, or about what I post.

I did indeed say that the "five-fold ministry" gifts (apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher) are gifts from God; but deacon and elder (overseer) are appointed by men; but I did not give a reason as to why that is.  The Bible states it, so we are to believe it.

I will now give what I believe to be the reasons why the five are not chosen by men; whereas, elders and deacons are. 

The five require miraculous enabling from God, to fulfil their special vocations, and the knowledge that this is what they are.  You do not choose to be one of the five, God chooses to make you that and gives you knowledge of the fact.  He also enables you to carry it out and puts that special burden on your heart. 

Elders and deacons do not require special, miraculous enabling, beyond that which is normal to born again Christians; but not all born again Christians will be suitable for these offices.  Since they are responsible and important functions, there are criteria for choosing them.

My assumptions on all we have spoken of came from Scripture (Matthew 23, Matthew 20, and Galatians 1). I have said I will think on what you said, which you have just stated the gist of what I interpreted from your last post.  

It should have blessed you that I am considering your point of view as being right. 

But alas, I see it did not. 

Fair thee well and God Bless, 

Fidei 

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, BeauJangles said:

Oh, man! That's hysterical! 

I could add a reference from the movie of “Reign of Fire,” but I’ll stop while the iron is hot.