dhchristian Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) 23 hours ago, David1701 said: Baptism in the Holy Spirit happens at conversion. 1 Cor. 12:12-14 (WEB) 12 For as the body is one, and has many members, and all the members of the body, being many, are one body; so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all given to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many. At conversion, the born again Christian is baptised, by the Lord Jesus Christ, in the Holy Spirit, into the body of Christ. The "earnest" of the Holy Spirit (i.e. the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) is the down-payment, guaranteeing full payment. The "full payment" happens at the resurrection. Most Christians believe this way and live in state of powerless Christianity.... they never strive to enter God's Rest and thereby have never put to death the flesh and live in the power of the Spirit. They are awaiting for something God has offered us while we are alive, and that is the Law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8). Doctrinally, though I oppose preterism, this is the one thing we can learn from them as premillennialists. The Escapist nature of the rapture teaching has led to a dulled down Spiritual walk. One devoid of the Power of the Spirit. We should be those who have died to themselves and are made alive in Christ Jesus. Edited July 22, 2020 by dhchristian 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptWalker Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 440 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/20/1970 Share Posted July 22, 2020 In the book of Acts Paul, Peter and John all had to lay hands on those believers before they could receive the Holy Spirit at all. And it makes no distinction between the two in Acts, as far as having the initial presence of the Spirit and that baptism. Because the apostles were only there to give them that FULL indwelling since that was what having the Spirit was all about,period. But that does not mean that God's Spirit is not with you on accepting Christ as personal Savior, since He never leaves or forsakes us from that time on. But obviously there is much more to it or else the book of Acts would never have even mentioned this, but the question really is whether or not that was just for the early Church or is it still for us today?? Either way, one problem i do have with the modern teaching of this, mostly with Pentecostals, is that you don't need to have anyone lay hands on you but can simply ask. Probably because many of these contemporary mega-churches just don't have enough people to do it and congregations are too large. But if they are going to point out how the apostles laid hands on those early believers then they also should practice what they preach. Or maybe it's because hardly anyone ever receives the "baptism" anymore in those kinds of services, and I wonder why? Maybe because you can't receive from others that "power" which they themselves don't have to give?? But of course that is always the fault of the one who was just not open to receiving it, no matter how bad they actually wanted it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.92 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 22, 2020 9 minutes ago, dhchristian said: The Escapist nature of the rapture teaching has led to a dulled down Spiritual walk. I beg your pardon. I've been renewed in the Holy Ghost and my smouldering flax has been set ablaze! I'm more on fire for God than I was when first receiving radical salvation as a teenager. I thought I was stepping out in faith and moving for Christ then, but I've matured since then and learned a thing or two. Took my knocks and fell to the ground. Got back up, crippled and maimed, but marching on in my walker for Jesus! Try and stop me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhchristian Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 136 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,488 Content Per Day: 1.41 Reputation: 1,325 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/29/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, BeauJangles said: I beg your pardon. I've been renewed in the Holy Ghost and my smouldering flax has been set ablaze! I'm more on fire for God than I was when first receiving radical salvation as a teenager. I thought I was stepping out in faith and moving for Christ then, but I've matured since then and learned a thing or two. Took my knocks and fell to the ground. Got back up, crippled and maimed, but marching on in my walker for Jesus! Try and stop me! I was not referring to you sir. It was a generalization of an attitude in some church members that has used the rapture as an excuse not to carry the cross. For some it is a form of "escapism" from cross carrying. Sorry for not making this clear. If you receive something in partial down payment (Earnest) and expect to receive the fulness thereof at some future time, there are some who believe this fulness only comes at our death and resurrection, I say the fulness can come to those who put to death themselves in this life and Live by the power of the Spirit of Life.... this is what the preterist teaches on the rapture, which is a misapplied term, But something they got right Spiritually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, dhchristian said: Most Christians believe this way and live in state of powerless Christianity.... they never strive to enter God's Rest and thereby have never put to death the flesh and live in the power of the Spirit. They are awaiting for something God has offered us while we are alive, and that is the Law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8). Doctrinally, though I oppose preterism, this is the one thing we can learn from them as premillennialists. The Escapist nature of the rapture teaching has led to a dulled down Spiritual walk. One devoid of the Power of the Spirit. We should be those who have died to themselves and are made alive in Christ Jesus. I don't live in a "state of powerless Christianity" - just in case you wondered. I tend towards amillenialism but there are details I'm unsure about. If people have not been made alive in Christ Jesus, then they are still unsaved... Our spiritual walk is based on love for, and faith in, the Lord Jesus Christ. Our relationship with him is what keeps our spiritual walk vibrant, by the power of the Holy Spirit. If we love him, then we will long for him to return, as soon as possible; I know I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.40 Reputation: 253 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 (edited) As for the "power" of the believer: 2 Pet 1:3-4: 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. The power that we receive in Holy Spirit baptism, which occurs at conversion (1 Cor 12:13), is that it makes us partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. It is through this power and knowledge of Him, also, that we are given those exceeding great and precious promises. And what are the promises? Compare to Rom 8:16-17: 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. An earnest, which is of the Spirit (2 Cor 1:22, 5:5; Eph 1:13-14), may be defined as a "pledge." It's: 1 : something of value given by a buyer to a seller to bind a bargain 2 : a token of what is to come : pledge https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/earnest The Holy Spirit is the surety or pledge we've been given, guaranteeing our eternal inheritance, and witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God. And this is the power through which we become partakers of the divine nature. I like John Gill's commentary on 2 Cor 1:22: 2 Corinthians 1:22, (GILL), Who hath also sealed us,.... "Two" things more are here attributed to God; "first", the sealing of his people. The use of seals is various, as to denote property in things, to distinguish one thing from another, to show esteem and affection for persons or things, and for security and protection, and to hide and conceal; all which might be applied to sealing, as expressive of the grace of God to his people, in claiming a property in them, distinguishing them from the rest of the world, setting his affections on them, securing and protecting their persons, and hiding them under the shadow of his wings: but sometimes a seal is used to certify, make sure, or assure the truth of a thing; see Joh 3:33 in which sense the word "sealing" is used here, and intends that assurance which God gives his people of their interest in his love, and the covenant of grace; of their election of God, and redemption by Christ; of their interest in Christ, and union with him; of their justification by him, and adoption through him; of the truth of grace in their hearts, their perseverance in it, and sure and certain enjoyment of eternal glory. The persons thus sealed are not carnal and unconverted persons, only believers in Christ, and these, after they commence such; the seal by which they are sealed, is not any of the ordinances, as circumcision under the Old Testament, or baptism, or the Lord's supper under the New; for these are no seals, nor are they ever so called; but the Spirit of God himself, as the Holy Spirit of promise; for the same who, in the next clause, is called the earnest, is the seal; see Eph 1:13. "Secondly", the giving of the earnest of the Spirit: and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts: by "the Spirit" is meant, not the gifts and graces of the Spirit merely, but the Spirit of God and Christ himself; who was concerned in the creation of the world, in inditing the Scriptures, in forming and filling the human nature of Christ, and in his resurrection from the dead; he himself is given as an "earnest": the word arrabwn, here used, and in 2Co 5:5 is the Hebrew word Nwbre, and comes from bre, which signifies "to become a surety, to give a pledge"; and is used for a pledge in covenants and bargains, both in Scripture, see Ge 38:17, and in Jewish writings [d]; which is given as an earnest, and in part of what it is a pledge of, and is never returned: the Spirit of God is an earnest or pledge of the heavenly inheritance, which is not only prepared for us, and promised to us, and Christ is in the possession of in our nature, in our room and stead, and as our representative; but the Spirit of God also is sent down "into our hearts" as a pledge of it; where he dwells as in his temple, supplies us with all grace, witnesses to us our sonship, and assures us of the heavenly glory: and as such he is "given"; and an unmerited free grace gift he is; for him to be given in this manner, and for such a purpose, is a wonderful display of the love of the Father, and of the Son, and is a surprising instance of his grace and condescension of the Spirit, and for which we should be abundantly thankful. [d] Midrash Megillath Esther, fol. 94. 2. Maimon. Hilch. Mechira, c. 7. sect. 1. & c. 11. sect. 4. Edited July 22, 2020 by Don19 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.92 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted July 22, 2020 2 hours ago, dhchristian said: I was not referring to you sir. It was a generalization of an attitude in some church members that has used the rapture as an excuse not to carry the cross. For some it is a form of "escapism" from cross carrying. Sorry for not making this clear. If you receive something in partial down payment (Earnest) and expect to receive the fulness thereof at some future time, there are some who believe this fulness only comes at our death and resurrection, I say the fulness can come to those who put to death themselves in this life and Live by the power of the Spirit of Life.... this is what the preterist teaches on the rapture, which is a misapplied term, But something they got right Spiritually. Oh, okay then. I didn't think this was addressed to me personally in particular. I used to what could be known as, "pre-trib". But, since all that time passed by since we were thinking, "Any day now, it's gonna happen..." Well, all those years went by and Jesus has yet to return. And we had all these so-called theologians who weren't truly trained and thoroughly schooled, but authoring books and giving massive lecture meetings and huge gatherings about how soon the immanent 2nd Coming was upon us. They thought all the prophesies were all fulfilled. Obviously they misjudged the event. Since that time, more and more prophesies were opening and being revealed. I now feel in my heart more than ever that it will occur. But do I fall into labelizations? No, not quite. I'm not "pre-mid-post". I can't buy into any of that. I was raised into to "post-trib"churches when I was a young lad. Now all that's changed. I will happen when it happens. No one knows the day or time. Those who are attempting to calculate are continuing to be wrong every time. This only disappoints themselves and everyone who is willing to listen to them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadworm Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 300 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/13/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 5 hours ago, David1701 said: David: "Not everything in Acts is normative for nowadays; and it's nothing to do with cracking a whip." Pontification from ignorance! You don't get to impose selective relevance on Scripture to serve your theological agenda. David: "Here is the Acts passage, in context (context is vital when attempting to understand a verse)." Uh, not in this case. Paul's very question implies (1) that conversion initiates an expectation of receiving the Holy Spirit and (2) that the reception of the Spirit is associated with an experience of divine power, which is not automatic, but at the Spirit's discretion. Hence, the appropriateness of my point that Spirit doesn't automatically jump just because you crack your whip. In 3 of the 4 cases in Acts where believers initially receive the Spirit there is a demonstration of divine power (tongues and prophesying). In the 4th case, such a demonstration of power is implied by Simon the Magician's offer of money to receive the power to impart the Spirit. You are ducking 2 key points: (1) Jesus' point that no one knows when and how the wind of the Holy Spirit initially comes upon us, so that we are born again (John 3:8). (2) Acts never implies an initial reception of the Spirit by faith followed by an experience of divine power evidenced by tongues and prophesying. The initial experience of Spirit power may or may not happen upon profession of faith; Paul associates this experience with the miraculous, but does not limit it to tongues and prophesying in his epistles: "Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing...Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the Law or by your believing what you heard (Galatians 3:3-5)?" "My speech and my proclamation were not with plausible words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that you faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on the power of God (1 Corinthians 2:5-6)." "But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the [God] talk of these arrogant people, but their power. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of [God] talk, but of power (1 Corinthians 4:19-20)." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don19 Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Senior Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 578 Content Per Day: 0.40 Reputation: 253 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/28/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 Yes, speaking in tongues and prophecy are not the only gifts of the Spirit at all. Paul lists others in 1 Cor 12... e.g., the word of knowledge, the word of wisdom, faith, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted July 22, 2020 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.55 Reputation: 3,522 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted July 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Deadworm said: Quote (2) Acts never implies an initial reception of the Spirit by faith followed by an experience of divine power evidenced by tongues and prophesying. This is a straw man, since I said nothing about tongues or prophesying. I certainly was not "pontificating from ignorance"! I've studied this and I know what I'm talking about. Baptism in the Holy Spirit, which happens nowadays at conversion, empowers us to live a godly life. Any specific gifts of the Holy Spirit are given at the Lord's discretion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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