Belief Systems Of This Forum

[dhchristian]

On 7/22/2020 at 7:35 AM, Glory To God said:

Hi all,new member here. 

 

I was just curious of what type Christian denominations/minds made up this forum. If it was Baptist,Catholic,Lutheran etc. I know there is a diversity on forums. I could not find a Poll option so if anyone wanted to drop in and share their position that would appreciated. 

 

I myself am Reformed. 

On Salvation I am an Arminian, "Whosoever will may come". On Sainthood I believe in divine election. I myself was raised a Baptist primarily Now i am a Christian, a Christ follower.

I think that the failure of the protestant churches to distinguish between the faithful and the saints has led to much of the factionalism amongst them. In reacting to the false doctrines of the veneration and prayers to the saints of the RCC, the Protestants, Luther/Calvin etc. said all believers are saints, But what I have found is that scripture distinguishes between the faithful in Christ Jesus and the saints.... Many are called, few are chosen. Calvin was right about predestination but misapplied it to salvation, and Arminius was right about free will but misapplied it to saintliness.  

[Glory To God]

25 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

On Salvation I am an Arminian, "Whosoever will may come". On Sainthood I believe in divine election. I myself was raised a Baptist primarily Now i am a Christian, a Christ follower.

I think that the failure of the protestant churches to distinguish between the faithful and the saints has led to much of the factionalism amongst them. In reacting to the false doctrines of the veneration and prayers to the saints of the RCC, the Protestants, Luther/Calvin etc. said all believers are saints, But what I have found is that scripture distinguishes between the faithful in Christ Jesus and the saints.... Many are called, few are chosen. Calvin was right about predestination but misapplied it to salvation, and Arminius was right about free will but misapplied it to saintliness.  

 

Interesting view and I will reply. If,I understand you correctly, you are saying the person has the will to choose salvation but then cannot fall away,I would challenge that by the fact the subject started off with agency but then the will got removed/eliminated,how is that? Consistent arminianism teaches a person chooses God and be shipwrecked,by their sinful choices or apostasy. 

 

As far the saints go,from my observation the language and context used always address saints as saved persons or a very strong implication. Consider these examples? 

 

Dan 7:18

But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Mat 27:52

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose

Act 9:13

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem

2 Cor 13:13

All the saints salute you.

Eph 6:18

Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints

Col 1:12

 

Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

 

 

[dhchristian]

Just now, Glory To God said:

Interesting view and I will reply. If,I understand you correctly, you are saying the person has the will to choose salvation but then cannot fall away,I would challenge that by the fact the subject started off with agency but then the will got removed/eliminated,how is that? Consistent arminianism teaches a person chooses God and be shipwrecked,by their sinful choices or apostasy. 

 

Eternal security versus conditional security is another question. I believe in eternal security, but i believe conditional security is there that all believers should come to the full assurance of the faith, not just doctrinally but by experience. Assurance is not something that is to be taught as a doctrine, but must be arrived at by a life lived in Christ Jesus. To teach it as a doctrine is to negate the individual the experience of coming to the full assurance of the faith. before that can happen they must walk through the valley of doubt, and surrender their ability to save themselves. Only then can the assurance of Salvation come and Eternal security. This has little to do with sainthood.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul calls the church the faithful and the saints.... the saints are those faithful ones who are chosen by God to suffer for the faithful, in place of the faithful, and for the testimony of Jesus. For example in Acts 4-5, the apostles rejoiced when they were counted worthy to suffer in the name of Christ Jesus. Many among the faithful are called to be saints, all of them in fact, but only a few are chosen. They are there to provide a testimony (Martyria) of the faith, to the accuser of the brethren, (think Job, and Rev, 12 here), and they overcome the accuser by their endurance (Perseverance of the saints, The P in Tulip) 2 Peter specifically deals with this calling to be saints, which if you read verse one of the epistle speaks of Obtaining by divine lot a salvation similar to the apostles, who suffered for the Word of God. The Word Legchano, means obtain by divine lot.... Thus the making your calling and election sure that the chapter speaks of is for the purpose of the time when we will be called to suffer as saints for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Sainthood is not a "worthiness" thing, but a choice of God. Being faithful on the other hand is a choice of man, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:13,17)  

It does not say whosoever God elects.... 

I Have read through all of the "old" arguments in the past in this regard, from Erasmus and Luther to Calvin and Arminius, and the one thing they all have in common is they fail to distinguish between the faithful and the saints and from this arrives all of their controversies. Even Erasmus who is a Catholic does not delve on this much in his attack on Luther. Although Luther "won" the debate, the truth of this distinction was lost in the protestant churches, and is why there are myriads of factions therein. It is the restoration of this distinction that will bring the Unity of the Spirit (Ephesians 4) to the end times church as the church age come to a close. 

I Invite you to do your own study, and pray for the teaching of the Holy Ghost as you do in this regard. Look up the word saints in the scriptures, look at how it was applied under the Old covenant (not all Israel were saints, but the nation was called faithful at times) Look at how the new testament applies saints, and how these called out ones are distinguished from the faithful in Christ Jesus. Let yourself be taught by the Holy Ghost and you can learn this, but if you approach this with your mind made up already you will not see. This distinction will open up scriptures you have for years that have caused strife in the church such as prophecy, and particularly revelation which deals with the saints, as opposed to the church. This is, imho the blinder that has blinded the protestant churches, for the past 500 or so years. 

[Glory To God]

32 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Eternal security versus conditional security is another question. I believe in eternal security, but i believe conditional security is there that all believers should come to the full assurance of the faith, not just doctrinally but by experience. Assurance is not something that is to be taught as a doctrine, but must be arrived at by a life lived in Christ Jesus. To teach it as a doctrine is to negate the individual the experience of coming to the full assurance of the faith. before that can happen they must walk through the valley of doubt, and surrender their ability to save themselves. Only then can the assurance of Salvation come and Eternal security. This has little to do with sainthood.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul calls the church the faithful and the saints.... the saints are those faithful ones who are chosen by God to suffer for the faithful, in place of the faithful, and for the testimony of Jesus. For example in Acts 4-5, the apostles rejoiced when they were counted worthy to suffer in the name of Christ Jesus. Many among the faithful are called to be saints, all of them in fact, but only a few are chosen. They are there to provide a testimony (Martyria) of the faith, to the accuser of the brethren, (think Job, and Rev, 12 here), and they overcome the accuser by their endurance (Perseverance of the saints, The P in Tulip) 2 Peter specifically deals with this calling to be saints, which if you read verse one of the epistle speaks of Obtaining by divine lot a salvation similar to the apostles, who suffered for the Word of God. The Word Legchano, means obtain by divine lot.... Thus the making your calling and election sure that the chapter speaks of is for the purpose of the time when we will be called to suffer as saints for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Sainthood is not a "worthiness" thing, but a choice of God. Being faithful on the other hand is a choice of man, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:13,17)  

It does not say whosoever God elects.... 

I Have read through all of the "old" arguments in the past in this regard, from Erasmus and Luther to Calvin and Arminius, and the one thing they all have in common is they fail to distinguish between the faithful and the saints and from this arrives all of their controversies. Even Erasmus who is a Catholic does not delve on this much in his attack on Luther. Although Luther "won" the debate, the truth of this distinction was lost in the protestant churches, and is why there are myriads of factions therein. It is the restoration of this distinction that will bring the Unity of the Spirit (Ephesians 4) to the end times church as the church age come to a close. 

I Invite you to do your own study, and pray for the teaching of the Holy Ghost as you do in this regard. Look up the word saints in the scriptures, look at how it was applied under the Old covenant (not all Israel were saints, but the nation was called faithful at times) Look at how the new testament applies saints, and how these called out ones are distinguished from the faithful in Christ Jesus. Let yourself be taught by the Holy Ghost and you can learn this, but if you approach this with your mind made up already you will not see. This distinction will open up scriptures you have for years that have caused strife in the church such as prophecy, and particularly revelation which deals with the saints, as opposed to the church. This is, imho the blinder that has blinded the protestant churches, for the past 500 or so years. 

 Well there's a lot of points I would disagree with here but the thread is just to give people an opportunity to share what they believe.

 

I'm not really sure what your point about the saints are,whether it be security or election or something else but I gave quite a lot of scripture to show that they are Christians and there's much more scriptural support if you search the concordances. 

 

The statement about calling out to God to be saved I would just ask,what makes him do it? The answer from some would be ''don't know'' but my answer is God put that faith into his heart.  

 

You didn't deal with this question ''I would challenge that by the fact the subject started off with agency but then the will got removed/eliminated,how is that?'' and I ask again because I find it to be one of the most inconsistent positions to hold,if one believes in the will of unregenerated man to choose God for salvation but after a born again experience this will is removed,could you explain from scripture how this works?

 

Thanks. 

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Glory To God said:

I'm not really sure what your point about the saints are,whether it be security or election or something else but I gave quite a lot of scripture to show that they are Christians and there's much more scriptural support if you search the concordances. 

Yes, indeed, you have five hundred years of Scholars telling us that all believers are saints. But you have the Bible saying that saint by definition is one called out from and separate from the group. For example, Aaron was called a saint, But Moses was not (Psalm 106:16). This error has been perpetuated for 500 years since Luther and has been a reaction to the heresy of the veneration of the saints in the RCC, and all that came with it. In throwing out the bath water they threw out the proverbial baby as well. 

I Am not here to argue this with you, but to encourage you to look into this, through scripture and the teaching of the Holy Ghost and not scholars as good or bad as they may be. There is a truth here that nullifies a great divide between Arminian and Calvinist that has divided the church for centuries. 

1 hour ago, Glory To God said:

You didn't deal with this question ''I would challenge that by the fact the subject started off with agency but then the will got removed/eliminated,how is that?'' and I ask again because I find it to be one of the most inconsistent positions to hold,if one believes in the will of unregenerated man to choose God for salvation but after a born again experience this will is removed,could you explain from scripture how this works?

I Did indirectly address this. The Will of man is surrendered to the will of God in the valley of doubt. this is when the efforts of the new found believer to live holy come into conflict with their unholy (sinful) nature, and they learn to put off the old man and Put on the new man (These are the scriptures that apply here.) In that Process full assurance of faith comes to that individual believer as they surrender their will to the will of God. You cannot say I believe in the full assurance of the faith and have eternal security because you believe a doctrine, but because you have lived through this experience and KNOW this assurance as you KNOW Christ Jesus as your Savior. It is not a mental ascent but a lifelong experience of putting to death the old self and cross carrying, coming to the point of Paul in saying I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2;20)

The problem with teaching this doctrinally is that because people believe the doctrine they have the assurance. A.W. Tozer calls this textualism, Let me quote his words on this for you so that you can understand this better.

The error of textualism is not doctrinal. It is far more subtle than that and much more difficult to discover, but its effects are just as deadly. Not its theological beliefs are at fault, but its assumptions.

It assumes, for instance, that if we have the word for a thing we have the thing itself. If it is in the Bible, it is in us. If we have the doctrine, we have the experience. If something was true of Paul it is of necessity true of us because we accept Paul's epistles as divinely inspired. The Bible tells us how to be saved, but textualism goes on to make it tell us that we are saved, something which in the very nature of things it cannot do. Assurance of individual salvation is thus no more than a logical conclusion drawn from doctrinal premises, and the resultant experience wholly mental. 

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=19117&forum=36

 

This is a big problem not just in  reformed thinking but fundamentalism in General, This is a protestant problem and a Catholic Problem and a human problem, as our faith is misplaced in our mental capacities versus living our life for him. We Know Jesus on an intimate level, not on a mental level, yes we can augment that knowledge with theology and I am not opposed to this, but if the relationship is not there, there is only head knowledge about Him, and he will say "I never Knew you" the same is true of falling away from the faith, Until we as believers reach the full assurance of the faith there are the cares of this world and the trials that can turn you away from that faith. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb 10:22) 

[Fidei Defensor]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

On Salvation I am an Arminian, "Whosoever will may come". On Sainthood I believe in divine election. I myself was raised a Baptist primarily Now i am a Christian, a Christ follower.

I think that the failure of the protestant churches to distinguish between the faithful and the saints has led to much of the factionalism amongst them. In reacting to the false doctrines of the veneration and prayers to the saints of the RCC, the Protestants, Luther/Calvin etc. said all believers are saints, But what I have found is that scripture distinguishes between the faithful in Christ Jesus and the saints.... Many are called, few are chosen. Calvin was right about predestination but misapplied it to salvation, and Arminius was right about free will but misapplied it to saintliness.  

I’m Arminian too, I think you end up so when you realize The Great Commision (Matthew 28:19) dies on strict Predestination. 

[Marilyn C]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 9:05 PM, Glory To God said:

Hi all,new member here. 

 

I was just curious of what type Christian denominations/minds made up this forum. If it was Baptist,Catholic,Lutheran etc. I know there is a diversity on forums. I could not find a Poll option so if anyone wanted to drop in and share their position that would appreciated. 

 

I myself am Reformed. 

Hi Glory To God,

Interesting to read of other members background. I am fourth generation Apostolic from the Welsh Revival, (early last century). My grandparents, (Scottish) came out to Australia to bring the revelation of the 5 fold ministry of Christ, (Eph. 4: 11) and later the Eternal Purposes in Christ.  

I have helped in various denominations as I taught in the country and there was no Apostolic assembly there - Anglican, Assembly of God, & Uniting. I have benefitted through relating to others in different denominations and have seen God working across the Body in leaders and congregations.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is bringing us all, (no matter the denomination) to the `unity of the faith` concerning Christ, and His purposes. At present my husband and I meet in small groups and enjoy the close relationship of mentoring and peer receptivity.

[Fidei Defensor]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Glory To God,

Interesting to read of other members background. I am fourth generation Apostolic from the Welsh Revival, (early last century). My grandparents, (Scottish) came out to Australia to bring the revelation of the 5 fold ministry of Christ, (Eph. 4: 11) and later the Eternal Purposes in Christ.  

I have helped in various denominations as I taught in the country and there was no Apostolic assembly there - Anglican, Assembly of God, & Uniting. I have benefitted through relating to others in different denominations and have seen God working across the Body in leaders and congregations.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is bringing us all, (no matter the denomination) to the `unity of the faith` concerning Christ, and His purposes. At present my husband and I meet in small groups and enjoy the close relationship of mentoring and peer receptivity.

Welsh Revival! Fascinating.  

i am glad you are for the Unity of Faith! I too have worked with many denominations: Assembly of God, Evangelical, Presybeterian, Messianic, Non-denominational, Southern Baptist, Seventh Day-Adventist, and etc. i believe we are One Body in many parts.  

[Fidei Defensor]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Christian. First and foremost. I do not believe God is a Respecter of denominations, sects, or factions so neither am I. However, theologically speaking I align with the Lutheran/Calvinist/Reformed end of the spectrum Theologically (big-t; ie., the nature of God), Christologically, soteriologically, ecclesiologically, pneumatologically, hamartiologically, and eschatologically. I am fundamentalist, evangelical, partial-preterist, an anthropological monist, lean toward conditional mortality or, more commonly, annihilationism, and believe the Bible infallible, inerrant, and authoritative in all to which it speaks. Although raised attending Episcopal congregations I did not become a Christ in the "born again" understanding of the faith until I was 25 years old. I currently alternate between two Presbyterian congregations, one of the EPC, the other of the PCA, but both are evangelical. I have in my more than 35 years as a converted Christian actively  attended and participated in most of the Prot denoms (Episcopal, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, Church of Christ) as well as Catholic, Orthodox, Brethren, Quaker, and a variety of non-denoms both charismatic and Reformed-affiliated. In between my childhood Episcopalianism and my Christian conversion I was a hedonist, a practicing Buddhist, and a member of a cult. 

Your journey is amazing.  

You believe annihilationism: “In Christianity, annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism)^[1] is the belief that those who are wicked will perish or be no more. It states that after the final judgment all unsaved human beings and all fallen angels (all of the damned) and Satan himself will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell (often synonymized with the lake of fire).,” (annihilationism, Wikipedia). 

I have to ask how do you reconcile these verses as an annhilationist?: 

“and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10)

“And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

”And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.' (Mark 9:47-48)

[dhchristian]

5 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I’m Arminian too, I think you end up so when you realize The Great Commision (Matthew 28:19) dies on strict Predestination.

We all see in Part.... Calvin saw in Part, Arminius saw in part, Paul even saw in part, he is the one that said this in 1 cor. 13. the sooner we as believers can admit this the sooner we can have the fellowship of the saints in which the whole becomes more visible. 

Wouldn't that be a great contrast to the divisiveness being pushed by the media in this day and age??