Is God Responsible For The Evil In The World? No He Is Not.

[RonaldBruno]

6 hours ago, JAG** said:

You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom

That is interpreted as "free from sin", as in we are no longer slaves to sin.

All the scriptures you give speak of choosing right from wrong. We have choices. But be careful, He chose us first. He predestined us, called us and we responded willingly. He first enablesd us. You cannit choose to lift a sourutal veil if blindness! He has to REMOVE it so that uou can then see. Then you are enlightened to His love and willing to cooperate. No one can come to the Father unless He draws them. His power enables you to choose. 

We can do NOTHING apart from God, nothing good. He actually prepares good works and does the work through us. He gets all the credit.

We were lost, hopeless slaves to Satan until He saved us. 

Sorry, I'm not a  Calvinist, but neither am I an Armenian. Armenian's kind of have this pride about them choosing God as if a blind person could do that without God's help.

[dhchristian]

5 hours ago, Alive said:

Who did you ask, if not the folks on the forum that may be currently in the thread or who might join in?

the person who wrote then OP I did not read other comments so I do not know what was said by others. I asked for his thoughts, He gave them to me. If I wanted to address Josheb I would have quoted him.

Josheb's comment was a snide remark and should have been reported.... If I were to read every comment on the forum I would not have a life. 

[Alive]

6 hours ago, dhchristian said:

the person who wrote then OP I did not read other comments so I do not know what was said by others. I asked for his thoughts, He gave them to me. If I wanted to address Josheb I would have quoted him.

Josheb's comment was a snide remark and should have been reported.... If I were to read every comment on the forum I would not have a life. 

The report function is available to you, @dhchristian.

i did not see such a report.

[JAG**]

9 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

 

Quote

All the scriptures you give speak of choosing right from wrong.

"All the scriptures you give speak of choosing right from wrong." ___Ronald Bruno 

Your phrase "speak of choosing right from wrong"  is just another way of saying

humans have Free Will, but you previously told me that   humans do NOT have

Free Will. 

 

9 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

Quote

We have choices.

Then we have human Free Will.

 

Quote

 

But be careful, He chose us first. He predestined us, called us and

we responded willingly.

 

I do NOT deny that He chose us first.

I do NOT deny that He predestined us and called us and that we responded willingly.

 

Quote

 

He first enablesd us. You cannit choose to lift

a sourutal veil if blindness! He has to REMOVE it so that uou can then see.

 

I do NOT deny that.

The Opening Post does NOT deny that.

You are continually making points that I do NOT deny and the Opening Post does NOT  deny.

 

Quote

 

Then you are enlightened to His love and willing to cooperate. No one can

come to the Father unless He draws them. His power enables you to choose.

 

I do NOT  deny that.

There is nothing  in the Opening Post that denies that. 

 

 

9 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

Quote

 

We can do NOTHING apart from God, nothing good , , , ,  He gets all the credit.

 

I do NOT deny that. The Opening Post does NOT deny that.

You  continue to make points that nobody is challenging.

Its almost as if you are arguing with yourself

 

Quote

We w. ere lost, hopeless slaves to Satan until He saved us

I do NOT  deny that.

The Opening Post does NOT  deny that.

You  continue to make points that nobody is challenging.

Its almost as if you are arguing with yourself

 

Quote

Sorry, I'm not a  Calvinist, but neither am I an Armenian.

You tell me you are "sorry" but you are not a Calvinist and not an Armenian.

I have no idea why you would tell me that. I have NOT  said one word about

Calvinism or Armenianism. The Opening Post is NOT on those issues.

My view is that you are "reading into" the Opening Post a LARGE number

of ideas and subjects that are NOT in the Opening Post.

 You  continue to make points that nobody is challenging.

 Which is okay if you want to do that. Its not a problem.

 

9 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

Armenian's kind of have this pride about them choosing God as if a blind person

could do that without God's help.

The Opening Post does NOT take a position on that.

The Calvinist vs. Armenian controversy has NOTHING to do with my Opening Post.

My Opening Post asserts that God is NOT responsible for the evil in the world, rather

human beings ARE responsible.  The word "evil" in my thread title means sin.

My Opening Post does NOT assert or even imply that man is Sovereign

and God is not.

 

___________________

 

These 3 Bible verses clearly and boldly teach human Free Will.

John 7:17 

"Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my

teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

A clear and solid Bible verses that teaches Free Will

___________________

Deuteronomy 30:19-20

"This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have

set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you

and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to

his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you

many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

A clear and solid Bible verse that presents the Biblical truth of human Free Will.

This verse alone is enough to settle this issue

__________________________

 

Joshua 24:15

"But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for

yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your

ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the

Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and

my household, we will serve the LORD."

_________________

 

Ronald are we agreed on this below?

The word "evil" means "disaster" and does not men sin.

^"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.___Isaiah 45:7 NIV

Bible Gateway has 57 different English translations of Isaiah 45:7 and none of them translate it like this:

^"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create SIN; I, the LORD, do all these things."

So?

So Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God causes men to choose to commit sins.

My view is that Isaiah 45:7 teaches that God brings disaster and calamity  upon men for His

good purposes and reasons. Some of His reasons might be to punish men for their sins. At other times

He might bring disaster on His believers in order to purify them or sanctify them or to teach them

valuable lessons. 

 

Best.

 

JAG

 

 

 

 

[RonaldBruno]

1 hour ago, JAG** said:

Free Will

To put it simply, are you free if you are a slave?

[JAG**]

8 hours ago, RonaldBruno said:

To put it simply, are you free if you are a slave?

I have no idea what YOU mean by your use of the word "free."

What did you decide about this?

Ronald are we agreed on this below?

The word "evil" means "disaster" and does not men sin.

^"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.___Isaiah 45:7 NIV

Bible Gateway has 57 different English translations of Isaiah 45:7 and none of them translate it like this:

^"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create SIN; I, the LORD, do all these things."

So?

So Isaiah 45:7 is not saying that God causes men to choose to commit sins.

My view is that Isaiah 45:7 teaches that God brings disaster and calamity  upon men for His

good purposes and reasons. Some of His reasons might be to punish men for their sins. At other times

He might bring disaster on His believers in order to purify them or sanctify them or to teach them

valuable lessons. 

Best 

JAG

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by JAG**

[JAG**]

On 7/24/2020 at 12:02 PM, Josheb said:

You're absolutely correct. The verses do not assume free will; they assume volitional

agency and that is not the same thing as volitional autonomy or independence.

The entire scenario wherein these people are given a choice is one brought about by

God with repeated episodes of determinism.

Aside from the fact these things were decided before the world was created we see that

God had told Abraham his descendants were going to be enslaved in Egypt for 400 years.

The moment God spoke those words that event was decided, unavoidably determined and

every single real choice every single involved individual would willfully make would conspire

to make what God had decided happen. They were not free to make it not happen. 

Genesis, Malachi, and Romans tell us God loved Jacob but not Esau and this affection was

decided before either boy was born or either man made a choice for God. Scripture tells us

God's will and not either of those men's wills was the basis for God's choice and it did not

depend on the works of either yet to be born man. There is a direct causal link between

God's choosing Jacob before Jacob was born, willed, or acted and that moment when God

offered Jacob's descendants a choice: choose this day whom you will serve. The choice never

would have been availed them had they been descendants of Esau, had God not chosen

Jacob.... had Jacob not subsequently chosen God. There moment of choice wasn't merely

dependent upon God's choice(s); it was also dependent upon the choices of those who

previously lived. 

Neither Moses nor Pharaoh chose the roles they were destined to play until well after

that process had begun. Pharaoh didn't choose to be the Pharaoh who would rule when

the 400 years were up. That was not a coincidence. God chooses the time and place in

which every single human lives and He doesn't ask their permission beforehand.

There's no, "Would you like to live in a nice sunny temperate disease-free climate

and era, or would you prefer something frequently cold, rainy, and pestilence-laden?"

Moses didn't choose to be born during a moment of persecution causing his mother

to set him adrift to be found by her enemies. He did not choose to be raised in

comparative splendor, power, and opulence by the enemies of his mother only to

know her as the source of his childhood suckling. He did not choose to be raised in

both the Egyptian paganism and Hebraic monotheism. He was certainly ignorant

of the effects of many of his choices... as stated in the scriptures. He didn't choose

exile and the unintended consequence of one of his choices prevented him from

entering the promised land..... which is where Joshua's people were given their

choice. Without every single choice of God and Moses they would never have

reached that moment of choice. 

And their choice is enormously informed by all they had seen on the way to that

moment. IN order not to choose God they would have to deny their bondage, deny

their liberation, deny the wealth they'd prophetically taken with them from Egypt,

deny the opening of the sea and the swallowing of Pharaoh's army, deny the

opening of the earth to swallow thousands, deny the pillars of fire and smoke,

deny the manna and the quail, and all the rest of those things that informed

their choice. 

And even after they reportedly chose God...... they did NOT choose God! They

were a rebellious people who despite the words coming out of their mouths

did not do as they said. 

They were not autonomous or independent of God or self. Their nature bound

them and did not permit autonomy, independence or that kind of freedom. 

It is factually, scripturally, and logically wrong to say the scriptures assume

free will. They do not.  They assume volitional agency, not volitional

autonomy. Big difference. 

2 Corinthians 2:14 
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things from the Spirit

of God but considers them foolish, and cannot understand them because t

hey are discerned only through the Spirit." 

That is what scripture assumes about the human will. 

 

And that is how and why evil exists in the world. It is humanity's doing,

not God's. The last man unfettered by sin was Adam and since his foolish

choice none of us have been autonomous, independent, or free from sin

and its effects.

 

 

.

Josheb, thanks for posting that. Your  post deserves a careful thoughtful consideration.

I enlarged it so it would be easier to read. Some eyes have a little age on them.

Best.

JAG

 

 

``

Edited July 25, 2020 by JAG**

[RonaldBruno]

3 hours ago, JAG** said:

The word "evil" means "disaster" and does not men sin.

Yes, obviously God does not sin. God does not cause man to sin either.

3 hours ago, JAG** said:

I have no idea what YOU mean by your use of the word "free."

You have a different meaning for free?

As applied to a person's will, it would be Total independence, without a master, authority over you. Able to make decisions without a cost.

Since the wages of sin is death, one is not free to do as they please without a cost. Jesus paid the price for your redemption. You were a slave to Satan and now you are a slave to God.

Someone else explained to you but you do not want to accept it. We have volition, but it is not independent (free).

Maybe you are just steeped in that Arminian theology? I really can't explain it any more thorough than I have. 

So do you act independently of God and did you likewise act independently of Satan before you became a believer? This is a basic concept.

[RonaldBruno]

On 7/24/2020 at 11:02 AM, Josheb said:

You're absolutely correct. The verses do not assume free will; they assume volitional agency and that is not the same thing as volitional autonomy or independence. The entire scenario wherein these people are given a choice is one brought about by God with repeated episodes of determinism. Aside from the fact these things were decided before the world was created we see that God had told Abraham his descendants were going to be enslaved in Egypt for 400 years. The moment God spoke those words that event was decided, unavoidably determined and every single real choice every single involved individual would willfully make would conspire to make what God had decided happen. They were not free to make it not happen. 

Genesis, Malachi, and Romans tell us God loved Jacob but not Esau and this affection was decided before either boy was born or either man made a choice for God. Scripture tells us God's will and not either of those men's wills was the basis for God's choice and it did not depend on the works of either yet to be born man. There is a direct causal link between God's choosing Jacob before Jacob was born, willed, or acted and that moment when God offered Jacob's descendants a choice: choose this day whom you will serve. The choice never would have been availed them had they been descendants of Esau, had God not chosen Jacob.... had Jacob not subsequently chosen God. There moment of choice wasn't merely dependent upon God's choice(s); it was also dependent upon the choices of those who previously lived. 

Neither Moses nor Pharaoh chose the roles they were destined to play until well after that process had begun. Pharaoh didn't choose to be the Pharaoh who would rule when the 400 years were up. That was not a coincidence. God chooses the time and place in which every single human lives and He doesn't ask their permission beforehand. There's no, "Would you like to live in a nice sunny temperate disease-free climate and era, or would you prefer something frequently cold, rainy, and pestilence-laden?" Moses didn't choose to be born during a moment of persecution causing his mother to set him adrift to be found by her enemies. He did not choose to be raised in comparative splendor, power, and opulence by the enemies of his mother only to know her as the source of his childhood suckling. He did not choose to be raised in both the Egyptian paganism and Hebraic monotheism. He was certainly ignorant of the effects of many of his choices... as stated in the scriptures. He didn't choose exile and the unintended consequence of one of his choices prevented him from entering the promised land..... which is where Joshua's people were given their choice. Without every single choice of God and Moses they would never have reached that moment of choice. 

And their choice is enormously informed by all they had seen on the way to that moment. IN order not to choose God they would have to deny their bondage, deny their liberation, deny the wealth they'd prophetically taken with them from Egypt, deny the opening of the sea and the swallowing of Pharaoh's army, deny the opening of the earth to swallow thousands, deny the pillars of fire and smoke, deny the manna and the quail, and all the rest of those things that informed their choice. 

And even after they reportedly chose God...... they did NOT choose God! They were a rebellious people who despite the words coming out of their mouths did not do as they said. 

They were not autonomous or independent of God or self. Their nature bound them and did not permit autonomy, independence or that kind of freedom. 

It is factually, scripturally, and logically wrong to say the scriptures assume free will. They do not.  They assume volitional agency, not volitional autonomy. Big difference. 

2 Corinthians 2:14 
"The person without the Spirit does not accept the things from the Spirit of God but considers them foolish, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit." 

That is what scripture assumes about the human will. 

 

And that is how and why evil exists in the world. It is humanity's doing, not God's. The last man unfettered by sin was Adam and since his foolish choice none of us have been autonomous, independent, or free from sin and its effects.

 

 

.

Excellent post!  Beats the heck out of any of my arguments against free will. This took lots of thought and knowledge! If this was all yours, you should have been a pastor or teacher.

Edited July 26, 2020 by RonaldBruno
spelling

[ChemEngineer]

On 7/24/2020 at 12:04 PM, JAG** said:

Thanks for the quote. 

How do you like these two quotes?
“I am an atheist, but as far as blowing up the world in a nuclear
war goes, I tell them not to worry.”___Fred Hoyle

https://www.goodreads.com/author/quo...992.Fred_Hoyle`

Said the atheist Fred Hoyle:

"Would you not say to yourself, "Some super-calculating intellect must have
designed the properties of the carbon atom, otherwise the chance of my
finding such an atom through the blind forces of nature would be utterly
minuscule. A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a
super-intellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and
biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.
The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming
as to put this conclusion almost beyond question." — Fred Hoyle[19]

Source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_H...ucleosynthesis
 

 

 

 

Fred Hoyle believed that extraterrestrials sent organisms to earth to populate it.  He is considered something of a crackpot by both atheists and people of faith.  Pretending that some intelligent life form made us only transfers the impossibility of the event to another planet.

 

Here are some very fine quotes:  http://AreAtheistsRight.blogspot.com

 

http://ProofThereIsNoGod.blogspot.com