The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[Retrobyter]

29 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Nope.  Keep studying.

Shabbat shalom, (a Sabbath of peace) to you, SONshine.

Well, it comes as no surprise to me that you would deny eisegesis, but ... that's what it is, brother. John (Yochanan) was a REAL PERSON who wrote these words to the brethren in these seven congregations. They read all his words dictated by Yeshua`, paying particular attention to that part addressed specifically to them. Then, they passed the letter along to the next congregation (perhaps, after making a copy for themselves), until all seven had received Yochanan's words.

Now, we may SEE in them some trait that our Master Yeshua` addressed for them, in our own congregation today, and through His response to that trait in them, take His response to them as warning to ourselves today, but they are NOT written FOR today! They are certainly not "seven TYPES" of churches that will be at the end of the 2,000 years! And, they have NEVER been intended to represent "seven epochs" within the last 2,000 years, as some teach, either.

You suffer from a common malady in Bible study today: "Everything we read in Scripture must have APPLICATION." This is the common mistake in preaching, too!

Try this: Some Sunday (or Shabbat, which is Saturday, btw), try just reading through a book of the Bible without comment and without application. JUST READ. Then, at the end, open it up for questions and answers. If you don't know the answer, don't make one up, just to look good; say instead, "I don't know, but let's see if we can find the answer together."

Edited August 1, 2020 by Retrobyter
to fix grammar

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

Shabbat shalom, "The Light"

What we are supposed to be watching for is the COMING OF THE SON OF MAN!

 

 

Don't you think there is a little more to it than that?

[DeighAnn]

If any one knows the reason for these things,

WHY would the 7 Churches of 2000 years ago be addressed in end time prophecy?   Isn't it strange that they would be so detailed in the BOOK of the REVEALING of the return of CHRIST JESUS ?  

For me, common sense given me by GOD,  tells me, if I can look around TODAY and find the same teachings being taught, it wasn't written to churches located in Turkey, 2000 yrs ago.  Also seems to me that 

SINCE the very first event to take place in Christs' ministry was the TEMPTING of Him by Satan, that there is a good chance that the LAST thing would be the TEMPTING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, the churches that TO this day need to REPENT, or else..  He certainly SHOWED US how to get it done.  He had on some gospel armor didn't He?  

Their locations were all in one place - their teaching all different.   

Does the location matter?  

Are all 7 locations still found today?  verses

Are all 7 characteristics/teachings found today?

Doesn't the "or else" tell us that TEMPTATION IS definitely going to come upon them to SEE whether they have or have not REPENTED?

Can there be a GREAT FALLING AWAY, if there hasn't been a GREAT COMING TO?  (In other words WHAT IS A FALLING AWAY considered to God?) 

Is it even possible for a GENTILE to FALL AWAY since they have never "come to"?  (oh, and for anyone who considers "gentiles" to be a part of the body of Christ, by GENTILE here I mean "heathen nations/those who have not come to Christ"/non Christians") (would this even be a cause of questioning if we didn't have some doctrine that brings it into question?  Yes, I know Paul was an apostle to the gentiles.  Maybe he should have been more specific and said I am apostle to the gentiles SOON TO BE CHRISTIANS.  Couldn't exactly call himself Apostle to the Christians because then WHO WOULD HE HAVE BEEN "CALLING" TO CHRIST?  

 

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

WHY would the 7 Churches of 2000 years ago be addressed in end time prophecy?

 

The apostles wrote and spoke in the terms of the last days as existing in their time.  Per the Olivet discourse the events began in their lifetimes, which Jesus expressly told them they would personally experience specific events.  So these first century churches were also part of that time.  The end times began with the first advent of Jesus.  He spoke during His ministry in terms of the last days being present tense.  This is why those 7 churches would be addressed in end time prophecy, because they were living it, and so has everyone in history since that time.  Take everything in the context it was written, right from the start of Revelation, look at John's words.

 

Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Isn't it strange that they would be so detailed in the BOOK of the REVEALING of the return of CHRIST JESUS ?

 

You start here with a faulty premise, it is not the revealing of His return.  It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, from His first advent where He was first revealed up to the eternal state, because there is no end.  Revelation includes all of this, it addresses things that precede His second coming, includes His second coming, and goes beyond His second coming.

The fact that these letters are so detailed in their specifics to those churches that existed at that time, it serves as evidence what John states, the letters were for those 7 churches.

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

For me, common sense given me by GOD,  tells me, if I can look around TODAY and find the same teachings being taught, it wasn't written to churches located in Turkey, 2000 yrs ago.

 

Have you ever heard a sermon on this?

 

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality.

 

or this similar occurrence in another one of these churches

 

Revelation 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

 

Is this woman named Jezebel that claims to be a prophetess still around today?  Is this practice of sacrificing food to idols and trying to trick Jews into eating it still a rampant problem in the church of today?

While what you say is true, and that there are in fact people taking things from these 7 letters and applying it in their modern sermons, would you say that every one of these instances they are applying it properly?  Surely in your time on this forum you have seen or conversed with someone of a different eschatological position that wants to apply one specific verse from a letter to themselves, but not acknowledge anything from the other 6 letters at all, haven't you?

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Their locations were all in one place - their teaching all different.

 

They were all in one region of that time known as Pergamum, which had a city by the same name, in what is modern day Turkey.  Interestingly, the area where the city Pergamum once sat is now in modern times more like a ghost town of ruins, where few people go.  This happens to be the church that was said to be the place where "satan's throne is."

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Does the location matter?

 

I suspect so, but that is speculation on my part.

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Are all 7 locations still found today?

 

They do all still exist as far as being populated areas other than Pergamum itself, but I don't believe any of them go by the same names they had at that time.

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Are all 7 characteristics/teachings found today?

 

No, as I previously pointed out, and I suspect you would agree that not every application people use is correct either.

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't the "or else" tell us that TEMPTATION IS definitely going to come upon them to SEE whether they have or have not REPENTED?

 

Exactly, and don't you think the actual individuals who attended those actual churches would have accepted that it meant them?

 

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Can there be a GREAT FALLING AWAY, if there hasn't been a GREAT COMING TO?

 

Well when you apply the meaning to the actual Greek word used, which is apostia, then falling away is one way to say it, as is departing from the faith, or truth.  So what it means is that one walks away from faith in Jesus to most likely preserve their physical continuation of life, or because their faith was poorly rooted to begin with.  The falling away that is spoken of in the Olivet discourse was specified to apply to the disciples themselves and something they would experience personally.  So it is a condition that began from the start of the gospel and continues today.  Throughout history there have been peaks and valleys of both revival and departure.

[DeighAnn]

53 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

Have you ever heard a sermon on this?

Never.  I  just see the denominations of today. 

 

55 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

You start here with a faulty premise, it is not the revealing of His return.

Asking the question.   "Isn't it strange that they would be so detailed in the BOOK of the REVEALING of the return of CHRIST JESUS ?"  

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

  Surely in your time on this forum you have seen or conversed with someone of a different eschatological position that wants to apply one specific verse from a letter to themselves, but not acknowledge anything from the other 6 letters at all, haven't you?

Yes I have.  They want to be kept from,  not delivered up

 

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

The falling away that is spoken of in the Olivet discourse was specified to apply to the disciples themselves and something they would experience personally.

First, I had to look up olivet discourse and that is? in Matt 24 (so prob Mk 13,Lk21 right?).  

I don't know if I am reading you right or am I?  you believe the great falling away happened to the disciples?   I am a little lost here.  I understand faith waxing and waning but "the great falling away" is specific and for a specific time.  Satan has never been kicked out of heaven before to deceive the world.  They go hand and hand.  


From my understanding or observation,  the Christians of this world are being taught VERY little of Gods truth.  It is the lack of teachings from todays churches about who is coming PRE Christ, in which they will find themselves confronted with the Instead of Christ who will be performing miracles, bringing the world together, promising peace and safety, looking and sounding like what they believe Christ to look and sound like and they wont even know they have fallen away.  That is how it is GREAT.  They don't even know they are being deceived by a fake.  Their love that ONCE, before they were fooled, was going to the Lord is now going to the FAKE.  They don't know it is the fake until the true Christ returns and it is ONLY then they are wishing for mountains to cover them.  Shame on them for professing to love God yet not even taking them time to read the letter He sent to them that FOREWARNED them, IN DETAIL.  Watch out for this, watch out for that, watch out when you see this.  DO not be deceived. 

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.  

That is why we are told   
So you better watch out.  It is coming.  Put on your armor.  We fight not against flesh and blood but powers.  Their power is in their mouth/words.  Their lies, their deception.  They want you to break Gods first commandment.  Its gonna cost you a lot to NOT KNOW. To not be ready.  To not watch. To not stand. To not buy and sell.  To not worship.  To not overcome.  To fall away. and all the rest.  

 

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

Exactly, and don't you think the actual individuals who attended those actual churches would have accepted that it meant them?

No, not really.  I believe many believe their church is a unit and by going to that church they are ok.  If not why would so many believe in rapture PT.  



 

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

First, I had to look up olivet discourse and that is? in Matt 24 (so prob Mk 13,Lk21 right?).

 

Yes, those are the three accounts of the Olivet discourse, you are correct.

 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

I don't know if I am reading you right or am I?  you believe the great falling away happened to the disciples?

 

Yes, when you take into account all three examples from scripture, then we must apply facts established from any one of them to all three.  In this instance, regarding the falling away you will find a very specific sequence given in Luke.

 

Luke 21:10 Then he said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

 

Now notice the last sentence from above, and does that sentence in your opinion speak to things we see within Revelation?  Now look at what follows it.

 

Luke 21:12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake. 13 This will be your opportunity to bear witness. 14 Settle it therefore in your minds not to meditate beforehand how to answer, 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16 You will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you they will put to death. 17 You will be hated by all for my name's sake. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By your endurance you will gain your lives.

 

Now these exact events as described by Luke took place to the disciples themselves, which we know not only through historical accounts but also scripture accounts.  In Matthew's account, we see the same thing, some parts are said in different words but speak to the same things, and others such as "You will be hated by all for my name's sake" are nearly word for word.  So per Luke, the events in verses 12-19 come before the more vaguely covered events in verses 10 and 11.  From Matthew's account, these are some of the phrases I am referring to.

 

Matthew 24:9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

John in his writings, also tells us that these events took place.

 

I John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

 

What John is describing in verse 19 is the falling away that was spoken of by Jesus, members of the early church departing the faith.  The reason why studying all three accounts is important, is because we get details from one that we do not get from the others.  Luke provides us with details that give us specific timing to this event, just as Mark gives us specific information as to who exactly was present.  From Luke's account, one could think that a large number of followers were the audience, from Matthew it is narrowed down to the disciples asking privately, but Mark gives us the exact names of the four present.

 

Mark 13:3 And as he sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 I am a little lost here.  I understand faith waxing and waning but "the great falling away" is specific and for a specific time. 

 

I'm not sure what you define as the great falling away, so I'll address what I think you might mean and if you have something else in mind just reference the passage.

 

II Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

 

In this passage, Paul relates in timing that the falling away and the man of lawlessness come prior to His coming and the gathering.  Paul does not say they are in close proximity to each other, only a sequence of events.  The falling away is the first order of the sequence, the man of lawlessness is second, but nothing specific as to how much time occurs between the two.  He also does not say how much time comes between either of these two things and His coming and our gathering.

So if the falling away Paul speaks of in this passage is the same falling away spoken of by Jesus in the Olivet discourse, the sequence was correct as that event came first.

 

I Timothy 4:Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

 

In his letter to Timothy, Paul speaks of a falling away, (this time in the other term of departing from the faith) which talks about later times, as in the future.  But his choice of words in regards to saying "some" doesn't equate to me as a "great falling away".  A falling away no doubt, but doesn't appear to be any more significant in number than the one spoken of by Jesus.

As I said in my original response, I see a condition that has existed for as long as the church has existed, one that ebbs and flows in conjunction with periods of great revivals.  For example, we have come through a period in recent times that many consider a time of great revival (70's and 80's).  However, leading up to this period of revival the church went through some drastic changes regarding the altar call.  The altar call prior to this was a very personal thing, done over a period of time that involved personal discipleship, but starting with the late Billy Sunday in more modern times, the altar call has morphed into more of an assembly line production.  I posted a video years ago that covers this transformation of the church history, I will find the link and share it with you here.  If you can find the time I think you will be glad you watched it, I believe it is about 45 minutes long, but well worth the watch.

In regards to where we are now, because of the changes in regards to how many came to the Lord, we are in a period rife for departure because so many were poorly rooted.  And I am by no means indicting every congregation or pastor by pointing this out, but keep in mind we live in the days of the mega-churches.  The church I attend is massive, and there is no humanly way possible for the pastor to have a personal handle on how each member of his flock is doing, in fact, there is no way he could even know each one of us personally.

In regards to your comments concerning the future, I have no doubt that a falling away will accompany the events we still consider future, but it has nothing to do with the falling away that happened in the first century which the disciples experienced themselves.  As someone once said, those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

 

 

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

3 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Exactly, and don't you think the actual individuals who attended those actual churches would have accepted that it meant them?

No, not really.  I believe many believe their church is a unit and by going to that church they are ok.  If not why would so many believe in rapture PT.  

 

Well let me put it this way then.  If you attended a church which received a letter from the apostle John himself, and he said to your church in the letter.

“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

If this arrived to your church, from John, and you knew it was a reliable source, you wouldn't feel it was sent to your church but some church thousands of years down the road?  Then, consider this from another letter, and explain to me if this is in any way applicable to anyone alive today.

 

Revelation 2:13 “‘I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is. Yet you hold fast my name, and you did not deny my faith even in the days of Antipas my faithful witness, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells.

 

How many people since the time Antipas was killed in Pergamum could this apply to?

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

 

 

Here is the video link if you are interested.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

If any one knows the reason for these things,

WHY would the 7 Churches of 2000 years ago be addressed in end time prophecy?   Isn't it strange that they would be so detailed in the BOOK of the REVEALING of the return of CHRIST JESUS ? 

Shabbat shalom, DeighAnn.

Well contrary to your opinion, both Yeshua` ("Jesus") and His servant, Yochanan ("John") were concerned for these seven churches 2000 years ago. Therefore, no, it would NOT be strange that they would be so detailed in the book by Yeshua` about His Return. They were the RECIPIENTS of the book!

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

 For me, common sense given me by GOD,  tells me, if I can look around TODAY and find the same teachings being taught, it wasn't written to churches located in Turkey, 2000 yrs ago.  Also seems to me that 

SINCE the very first event to take place in Christs' ministry was the TEMPTING of Him by Satan, that there is a good chance that the LAST thing would be the TEMPTING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, the churches that TO this day need to REPENT, or else..  He certainly SHOWED US how to get it done.  He had on some gospel armor didn't He?

It always amazes me how UNCOMMON "common sense" truly is. You don't even know what these congregations were like outside of what was written to them and about them! So, just how misplaced were these sub-letters to the seven congregations really? Like it or not, they were the FIRST recipients of this book. We wouldn't even have the book of Revelation without them!

I'm not saying that churches today don't need to repent, but that need is not directly addressed by these sub-letters! However, the Ruwach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God can work through these sub-letters to convict churches today.

Furthermore, you're misusing the word "gospel" in your comment on "gospel armor." Paul's analogous view on "the whole armor of God" in Ephesians 6:10-20 includes having one's feet "SHOD with the preparation or readiness of the gospel of peace," which is that "gospel of the Kingdom!"

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion,

"Thy God reigneth!"

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Their locations were all in one place - their teaching all different.   

Does the location matter?  

It did to THEM!

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Are all 7 locations still found today?  versus Are all 7 characteristics/teachings found today?

THIS is what doesn't matter! Drop the word "today"!

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Doesn't the "or else" tell us that TEMPTATION IS definitely going to come upon them to SEE whether they have or have not REPENTED?

Can there be a GREAT FALLING AWAY, if there hasn't been a GREAT COMING TO?  (In other words WHAT IS A FALLING AWAY considered to God?) 

You don't even know from what one is "falling away!" Haven't you learned that they have "fallen away" from God's Law?

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (day of the Messiah) is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (Greek: hee apostasia = "the standing-away-from") first, and that man of sin (Greek: ho anthroopos tees anomias = "the man of-the without-Law" or "the man with total disregard for God's Law") be revealed, the son of perdition (Greek: ho huios tees apooleias = "the son of-the ruin/destruction"); 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped (or to which one may bend the knee); so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Is it even possible for a GENTILE to FALL AWAY since they have never "come to"?  (oh, and for anyone who considers "gentiles" to be a part of the body of Christ, by GENTILE here I mean "heathen nations/those who have not come to Christ"/non Christians") (would this even be a cause of questioning if we didn't have some doctrine that brings it into question?  Yes, I know Paul was an apostle to the gentiles.  Maybe he should have been more specific and said I am apostle to the gentiles SOON TO BE CHRISTIANS.  Couldn't exactly call himself Apostle to the Christians because then WHO WOULD HE HAVE BEEN "CALLING" TO CHRIST?  

I'm sorry, but you can't go changing the definitions of good biblical words. The word "Gentile" means "one who is not a child of Israel." It doesn't have anything to do with being a Christian or not! Rav Sha`uwl "Paulos" ("Paul") was one sent to those who were NOT children of Israel. The other apostles - the others who were sent - were sent to the children of Israel, particularly the Jews (the children of "Judah" or Yhudah). Among these others were Shim`own Kefa ("Simon Cephas" or "Simon Peter"), Ya`aqov ("James"), and Yochanan ("John").

Because you're not aware of the Jewish roots of your own faith, you're confused on the terminology.

[Retrobyter]

6 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

The apostles wrote and spoke in the terms of the last days as existing in their time.  Per the Olivet discourse the events began in their lifetimes, which Jesus expressly told them they would personally experience specific events.  So these first century churches were also part of that time.  The end times began with the first advent of Jesus.  He spoke during His ministry in terms of the last days being present tense.  This is why those 7 churches would be addressed in end time prophecy, because they were living it, and so has everyone in history since that time.  Take everything in the context it was written, right from the start of Revelation, look at John's words.

 

Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

 

 

You start here with a faulty premise, it is not the revealing of His return.  It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, from His first advent where He was first revealed up to the eternal state, because there is no end.  Revelation includes all of this, it addresses things that precede His second coming, includes His second coming, and goes beyond His second coming.

The fact that these letters are so detailed in their specifics to those churches that existed at that time, it serves as evidence what John states, the letters were for those 7 churches.

 

 

Have you ever heard a sermon on this?

 

Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against you: you have some there who hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, so that they might eat food sacrificed to idols and practice sexual immorality.

 

or this similar occurrence in another one of these churches

 

Revelation 2:20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

 

Is this woman named Jezebel that claims to be a prophetess still around today?  Is this practice of sacrificing food to idols and trying to trick Jews into eating it still a rampant problem in the church of today?

While what you say is true, and that there are in fact people taking things from these 7 letters and applying it in their modern sermons, would you say that every one of these instances they are applying it properly?  Surely in your time on this forum you have seen or conversed with someone of a different eschatological position that wants to apply one specific verse from a letter to themselves, but not acknowledge anything from the other 6 letters at all, haven't you?

 

 

They were all in one region of that time known as Pergamum, which had a city by the same name, in what is modern day Turkey.  Interestingly, the area where the city Pergamum once sat is now in modern times more like a ghost town of ruins, where few people go.  This happens to be the church that was said to be the place where "satan's throne is."

 

 

I suspect so, but that is speculation on my part.

 

 

They do all still exist as far as being populated areas other than Pergamum itself, but I don't believe any of them go by the same names they had at that time.

 

 

No, as I previously pointed out, and I suspect you would agree that not every application people use is correct either.

 

 

Exactly, and don't you think the actual individuals who attended those actual churches would have accepted that it meant them?

 

 

Well when you apply the meaning to the actual Greek word used, which is apostia, then falling away is one way to say it, as is departing from the faith, or truth.  So what it means is that one walks away from faith in Jesus to most likely preserve their physical continuation of life, or because their faith was poorly rooted to begin with.  The falling away that is spoken of in the Olivet discourse was specified to apply to the disciples themselves and something they would experience personally.  So it is a condition that began from the start of the gospel and continues today.  Throughout history there have been peaks and valleys of both revival and departure.

Shalom, wingnut-.

Look, just ask for Wikipedia's article on "Seven churches of Asia" Here's a link: Seven churches of Asia. You'll get a nice map and a pretty good description of where each church was located. You can also follow the link on that page to Asia Minor (Anatolia) where one can get a map on which one may zoom in closer to read the names of the various cities.