Are there any verses that DONT FIT in the 2nd Advent

[DeighAnn]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: AND THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD WHO GAVE IT   How do you reconcile this verse with Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus? Did the spirit of the rich man go back to God? Did the spirit of Lazarus go back to God?

I AM GOING to answer ONE MORE QUESTION BECAUSE  -  WE ARE NOT READING THE SAME BOOK.  

THIEF ON THE CROSS  

 

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 
LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN ARE IN PARADISE.  


HERE IT IS WITH HIGHLIGHTS

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

  You are dissecting words that mean the same thing so that you can make them mean something else to support a doctrine.  Lets see if you can show me one thing IN GODS WORD without having to resort to any explanation


 THESS SAYS  
WHEN CHRIST RETURNS
OUR LOVED ONES WILL BE WITH HIM
AND WE WILL BE CHANGED. 

WHERE DO YOU GET PRE TRIB IN THOSE VERSES? 



THE SEALS ARE KNOWLEDGE.   And when are the trumpets HANDED OUT? 

Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

 And the Vials when are they poured out?  Chapter 16?    


REMEMBER HOLD BACK THE WINDS UNTIL THEY ARE SEALED???  THOSE AREN'T ACTIONs THEY ARE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT IS COMING.  WHAT WE ARE TO WATCH FOR.  so we can follow the command of Jesus and NOT BE DECEIVED.  

 

WHERE  do you think the last almost 6000 years of souls have gone?  About 6 or 7 billion souls?  You know FROM ADAM to WHOEVER DIED IN THIS LAST SECOND?   WHY they are like the sands of the sea or the dust of the earth or the stars in the sky in number.  

GOD IS THE GOD OF THE LIVING NOT THE DEAD.  NOT ONE SOUL HAS DIED.  NOT ONE.  OF EVERY SOUL WHO HAS EVER BEEN BORN THEY ARE ALL STILL ALIVE.  AND THEY HAVE RETURNED TO THE FATHER FROM WHENCE THEY CAME.  AND THEY ARE IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW.  DO YOU SEE THEM?  DO YOU SEE THAT GREAT CROWD TO LARGE TO NUMBER.  RIGHT NOW. STANDING BEFORE GOD.  NOTE CAREFULLY WE ARE STILL ON EARTH.  
 
 

WHERE DO YOU GET PRE TRIB IN THOSE VERSES?   Why would I have to find pretrib in those verses? We have rapture verses: Paul wrote them. To determine timing, we must refer to what God has given us.  However, this takes wisdom: some read Matthew 24, close the book, and sit smugly thinking they know what the church has argued over for centuries!  They totally ignore that the gathering in Matthew 24 cannot possibly fit Paul's rapture. 
 

I submit, to find the timing to Paul's rapture, we first study PAUL: after all, He was the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture.  Therefore, I DON'T NEED to find pretrib on those verses: I go to 1 Thes.. 4 & 5 and determine that Paul tells us HIS rapture / gathering will come JUST (a moment) before wrath. That would be God's wrath.  

Next, I go to Revelation and ask John where God's wrath begins? That part is easy: God's wrath will begin with the DAY OF HIS WRATH: at the 6th seal. Then I study the 5th seal and find they are the martyrs of the church age and are told that judgment cannot come (start) until the FINAL church age martyr. How fitting then that Paul's rapture comes BETWEEN the 5th seal (church age martyrs) and the 6th seal (start of God's wrath.)

I read ahead in Rev. 7 and see that John saw the just now raptured church safely in heaven, ,as the great crowd, too large to number. 

I know from previous study that "the trib" does not begin until the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. 

Therefore, I discover, the bible DOES TELL US of a pretrib rapture. 

WHERE DO YOU GET PRE TRIB IN THOSE VERSES?   Chapter 4 tells us the FACTS of the rapture, but 1 thes. 5 tells us the TIMING of the rapture: Just before wrath. 

THE SEALS ARE KNOWLEDGE.   No, wrong. The seals are there to seal the BOOK. That is the very purpose of a seal: to prevent an unauthorized person from opening a book. In this case, the book with 7 seals. Make no mistake: God's goal is to get all seven seals opened SO THAT the book can be opened to reveal the trumpet judgments - for only then can Satan be kicked from his throne. 

Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.  This is THE START of the 70th week or "tribulation." 

REMEMBER HOLD BACK THE WINDS UNTIL THEY ARE SEALED???  THOSE AREN'T ACTIONs THEY ARE KNOWLEDGE  Do you just not understand what John (and the Holy Spirit) are doing here? 

In the mind of God, two things MUST TAKE PLACE FIRST - before His wrath is poured out in the trumpet judgments.
1. The 144,000 MUST BE SEALED for their protection.
2. The church MUST BE SEEN safely in heaven.

Have you ever watched a church play where the curtain closes between Acts? What happens behind the curtain? They REARRANGE the setting to fit the next act.  Here, the next act will begin with the 7th seal - so the curtain must close between the 6th and 7th seals  - so God can rearrange the set. That is what God does in Rev. 7.  So in chapter 7 God sees the 144,000 get seals, and sees the church raptured to heaven. Now the setting is ready for the next act: the start of the 70th week. 

In other words, God is NOT GOING to allow any "HURT" to happen until the church is in heaven and the 144,000 are sealed. 

WHERE  do you think the last almost 6000 years of souls have gone?  About 6 or 7 billion souls?  I don't need to think for God TELLS US: all the unrighteous are in hell. The righteous are in heaven. Plain and simple. 

  AND THEY HAVE RETURNED TO THE FATHER FROM WHENCE THEY CAME.  This is simply NOT TRUTH: Go back and read the story of Lazarus again.  The "air" may well have returned to God, but NOT THE SPIRIT WITH THE SOUL. Jesus made this very clear: Hell is holding all the unrighteous until judgment day.  But the righteous are in heaven with God. So you are half right: the righteous are with God. The sinner away from God.  Don't put more weight on what Solomon said versus what Jesus said. Hebrew is not as exact a language as Greek. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I AM GOING to answer ONE MORE QUESTION BECAUSE  -  WE ARE NOT READING THE SAME BOOK.  

THIEF ON THE CROSS  

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. 
LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN ARE IN PARADISE.  


HERE IT IS WITH HIGHLIGHTS

Luke 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luke 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Luke 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

So you have answered your own question: the rich man was in hell, NOT IN HEAVEN. 

Surely you understand now that after Jesus defeated death, God would then release all those righteous held in Abraham's bosom and take them to heaven? I thought that was common knowledge. 

Note: at that time, Jesus as NOT YET conquered death. He, like every other righteous man, had to go DOWN upon death. 

By the way, How do you reconcile where Jesus went with what Solomon wrote?

(Of course we are reading the same book! But it seems we read it differently.)

LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN ARE IN PARADISE.    NO! The rich man is in the FIRE! Lazarus is NOT. They were in different places.  (The rich man is still in hell, but Lazarus is now in heaven.)
 

Edited August 3, 2020 by iamlamad

[DeighAnn]

36 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

 No, wrong. The seals are there to seal the BOOK.

So how are the 144,000 sealed?

[iamlamad]

57 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

So how are the 144,000 sealed?

You are talking TWO DIFFERENT KINDS of "seals."  The 144,000 have their Father's name written somehow on their forehead. It is a seal of protection.

Typically a seal sealing a book was made of wax. It usually had some kind of identification such as the king's mark. No one would dare break a king's seal.  Without a doubt, death would be the penalty. In this case, the book or document was created in the throne room of heaven. Without much doubt, it is the lease document to planet earth. It was written outside and inside. The outside could be read - and probably told WHO could be worthy to take the book and open the seals so that the book could be opened.  It is the book that is important. The book finally opened is what will get Satan kicked off his throne. God's goal is to get to the 7th trumpet so that can take place. But first, the first 6 trumpets must be sounded. And before any of them can be sounded, the 7th seal must be opened so that the book can be opened. Most people forget all about the book and concentrate on the seals. Their purpose was only to seal the book. 

However, since this is a legal document, created in the courtroom of heaven, NO SEAL event could legally take place until someone could legally open that seal. I am convinced, the devil thought no one ever would be found worthy to take the book and open the seals. It  had to be a man and a man who could prevail over death - raise from the dead under his own power. He was wrong.  Jesus prevailed over death and was then found worthy to open the seals.

So far, 5 seals have been opened. Those under the 5th seal - the martyrs - are told they must wait for the final martyr before judgment (the trumpets). the pretrib rapture will cause the very last church age martyr, then the 6th seal will start the Day of His wrath, then the 7th seal will start the 70th week. 

So John was talking about two different kinds of seals for two different purposes. 

[DeighAnn]

37 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

  AND THEY HAVE RETURNED TO THE FATHER FROM WHENCE THEY CAME.  This is simply NOT TRUTH:

You will need to let God know this is incorrect.  

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I AM PRAYING FOR THE STRENGTH TO MAKE THIS MY LAST, AGAIN.  WE SERIOUSLY WOULD NEED TO START AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BIBLE TO COME TO ANY UNDERSTANDING.  AS IT STANDS WE ARE OPPOSITES AND THIS IS NOT PRODUCTIVE.  THANK YOU FOR KEEPING IT CIVIL, IT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.  MAYBE WE COULD BLOCK EACH OTHER SO WE DON'T DO THIS AGAIN.  I WILL DO MY BEST TO NOT COMMENT ON YOUR POSTS, PLEASE DO THE SAME FOR MINE.  I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS, I HOPE YOU HAVE ALSO.  
 

 

44 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

WHERE DO YOU GET PRE TRIB IN THOSE VERSES?   Why would I have to find pretrib in those verses? We have rapture verses: Paul wrote them. To determine timing, we must refer to what God has given us.  However, this takes wisdom: some read Matthew 24, close the book, and sit smugly thinking they know what the church has argued over for centuries!  They totally ignore that the gathering in Matthew 24 cannot possibly fit Paul's rapture. 

 

48 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I submit, to find the timing to Paul's rapture, we first study PAUL: after all, He was the only writer of the New Testament that received the revelation of the rapture.  Therefore, I DON'T NEED to find pretrib on those verses: I go to 1 Thes.. 4 & 5 and determine that Paul tells us HIS rapture / gathering will come JUST (a moment) before wrath. That would be God's wrath. 

DO LETS STUDY PAUL.   "PAUL RECEIVED THE REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE"  Yes, he did.  It just wasn't Pre anything.  
  
PAUL (YOUR GO TO FOR GATHERING OF THE CHURCH AND TAKING IT TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION ON EARTH BEGINS) 

CORRECTS THE RECIPENTS OF THAT 1st LETTER (us) WHEN HE WRITES ( FOR GOD )

2  Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2  Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

PAUL YOUR PRE TRIB, IS IN FACT, A POST TRIB 

Matthew 24:15 When YE THEREFORE SHALL SEE  the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 YE SHALL SEE.  Jesus speaks to Christians.  



 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Next, I go to Revelation and ask John where God's wrath begins? That part is easy: God's wrath will begin with the DAY OF HIS WRATH: at the 6th seal.

 THE 6TH SEAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WRATH EXCEPT      telling THAT DAY HAS ARRIVED, which ends the 6th.

THIS is the WRATH OF the LAMB.  NOT GOD.  



Gods Wrath is poured out. IN  Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

The 6th seal SATAN CAST OUT OF HEAVEN

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
UNTIMELY FIGS, now here on earth. 
 
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
From kings on down the line, the foundations are being shaken, 

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
what is to come, is coming, is at the door, 

YET 
HE is still sitting on the throne


Revelation 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come;
 THE END OF THE 6TH SEAL DECLARES THAT THE WRATH IS COME, IT DOESN'T COME  "IN" THE 6TH SEAL.  



AND WHO SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND?  (QUESTION) 

IF YOU MISS THIS QUESTION YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS UNDERSTANDING WHY THIS  INFORMATION IS BEING GIVEN RIGHT HERE


(ANSWER)

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

NOW
Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


 

7th Seal  SILENCE IN HEAVEN - GIVEN THE 7 TRUMPETS - WRATH OF THE LAMB
7th Trump  THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER  
7th Vial   IT IS DONE

THE SPIRITUAL MEANING OF NUMBERS WILL ALWAYS HELP   
666  SATAN
777  CHRIST  



Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

You will need to let God know this is incorrect.  

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I AM PRAYING FOR THE STRENGTH TO MAKE THIS MY LAST, AGAIN.  WE SERIOUSLY WOULD NEED TO START AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BIBLE TO COME TO ANY UNDERSTANDING.  AS IT STANDS WE ARE OPPOSITES AND THIS IS NOT PRODUCTIVE.  THANK YOU FOR KEEPING IT CIVIL, IT IS MUCH APPRECIATED.  MAYBE WE COULD BLOCK EACH OTHER SO WE DON'T DO THIS AGAIN.  I WILL DO MY BEST TO NOT COMMENT ON YOUR POSTS, PLEASE DO THE SAME FOR MINE.  I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS, I HOPE YOU HAVE ALSO.  
 

DO LETS STUDY PAUL.   "PAUL RECEIVED THE REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE"  Yes, he did.  It just wasn't Pre anything.  
  

You will need to let God know this is incorrect.  Don't be silly!  Jesus knew the truth: it is told very simply in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. At that time, ALL had to go down to hades: the righteous and the unrighteous. But the place was divided. The righteous were in Abraham's bosom while the unrighteous were in the fire.  Perhaps then you can enlighten us all: the body went to the grave, but the real person (spirit and soul) went to hades. Therefore, PLEASE, solve this great mystery: which part (body - soul - spirit or ??) went back to God?  Can you tell us?

WE SERIOUSLY WOULD NEED TO START AT THE BEGINNING OF THE BIBLE TO COME TO ANY UNDERSTANDING.   I don't think so; we read scripture differently. I put FAR MORE weight on the words of Jesus than I do on the words of Solomon.  However, if you can tell us what part of the human in New Testament language goes back to God, I am all ears, so to speak. 

MAYBE WE COULD BLOCK EACH OTHER SO WE DON'T DO THIS AGAIN.   Why would we ever want to do that? Readers can gain from our disagreement. Perhaps they will choose a side? Or perhaps they can choose a different theory. 

I WILL DO MY BEST TO NOT COMMENT ON YOUR POSTS, PLEASE DO THE SAME FOR MINE.  I think that would be a great mistake. It is what forums are here for: when someone disagrees with a post, he or she answers the disagreement. The readers probably find this helpful. Our biggest disagreement is probably WHEN the rapture will take place. There are probably a very many readers who have not yet decided this issue. Perhaps our disagreements will be a help to them.  You have asked some good questions. I answered them to the best of my ability. 

 "PAUL RECEIVED THE REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE"  Yes, he did.  It just wasn't Pre anything.    I think perhaps you really don't understand Paul in 1 thes. 5. Please, allow me to explain.  Paul said this great event will START (begin) with a SUDDENLY: when people are saying "peace and safely" SUDDENLY people will hear a very loud shout and trumpet sound and the dead bodies of believers will fly up out of the ground. That will be the first supernatural event.
1.  The dead in Christ will rise

Did you read in Matthew 27:  "the earth did quake...and the graves were opened..."  It seems from this, when God resurrects those long dead, it will cause an earthquake. That makes sense to me, for the dust particles that once made up those dead bodies will suddenly fly together to form those bodies once again. Considering those early Christians, some of that "dust" (for a single body) could be spread out over a thousand acres or a hundred thousand acres.  Some could be a half mile deep. What am  I saying? When God raises the dead in Christ, that resurrection is going to cause a worldwide earthquake - which will be Paul's sudden destruction. 

Do we have #1 above.
2. One instant (a very short instant) after the Dead in Christ fly up out of their graves: Paul gives us a paradigm: he brings two groups of people up close so we can see what happens to each group. So a moment after the dead in Christ rise, those living in Christ get salvation - they get raptured and so get to "live together with Him." AT THE SAME MOMENT IN TIME: those NOT in Christ are left behind, to face Paul's sudden destruction earthquake. No one can escape for it happens the same instant as the rapture. And it will be worldwide: there will be no real estate NOT quaking. 

3. The gathering takes place: the Holy Spirit will fly all the dead in Christ just risen and those alive and in Christ changed, up to Jesus in the clouds. 

4. THEN GOD'S wrath begins with the sudden destruction. 

Paul tells us God will set no appointments with His wrath; the appointments will be for those left behind.  

Did you notice that just three verses after Jesus descends and catches us up - Paul talks of the Day of the Lord? Why would Paul mention the Day of the Lord just 3 verses after the shout, the trump and the rapture?  It is because the sudden destruction earthquake will be the START of the wrath of God.  In other words, 
1. Christ descends coming AS A THIEF: at an unknown time
2. He shouts and sounds the trumpet
3. The church is raised
4. The Day of the Lord has begun. 

So Christ comes as a thief, and because He begins the DAY a moment after the rapture, the DAY comes as a thief. 

So can we find this scenario in Revelation? It will not be word for word, because John did not SEE the rapture. But at the 5th seal, the early church martyrs are crying out wondering HOW LONG before judgement comes. They are basically told that they must wait for the very last martyr killed as they were - as church age martyrs. 

So what will make the very last church age martyr? of course the END of the church age: the rapture takes place, the church age ends, the final martyr will have come in, an the Day of the Lord (judgment) can then begin. 

In other words, the rapture cannot come in Revelation BEFORE the 5th seal. Why? Because martyrs are STILL HAPPENING and will continue up to the rapture.  But notice this: the rapture cannot come AFTER the 6th seal for that starts the WRATH of God.  And all this time you have imagined the bible did not teach a pretrib rapture. The truth is, IT DOES.  "The trib" then begins with the trumpet judgments. 
 

Edited August 4, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

DO LETS STUDY PAUL.   "PAUL RECEIVED THE REVELATION OF THE RAPTURE"  Yes, he did.  It just wasn't Pre anything.  
  
PAUL (YOUR GO TO FOR GATHERING OF THE CHURCH AND TAKING IT TO HEAVEN BEFORE THE TRIBULATION ON EARTH BEGINS) 

CORRECTS THE RECIPENTS OF THAT 1st LETTER (us) WHEN HE WRITES ( FOR GOD )

2  Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2  Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

PAUL YOUR PRE TRIB, IS IN FACT, A POST TRIB 

Matthew 24:15 When YE THEREFORE SHALL SEE  the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

 YE SHALL SEE.  Jesus speaks to Christians.  

 

 THE 6TH SEAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WRATH EXCEPT      telling THAT DAY HAS ARRIVED, which ends the 6th.

THIS is the WRATH OF the LAMB.  NOT GOD.  



Gods Wrath is poured out. IN  Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

 

The 6th seal SATAN CAST OUT OF HEAVEN

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 

Revelation 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
UNTIMELY FIGS, now here on earth. 
 
Revelation 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
From kings on down the line, the foundations are being shaken, 

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
what is to come, is coming, is at the door, 

YET 
HE is still sitting on the throne


Revelation 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come;
 THE END OF THE 6TH SEAL DECLARES THAT THE WRATH IS COME, IT DOESN'T COME  "IN" THE 6TH SEAL.  



AND WHO SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND?  (QUESTION) 

IF YOU MISS THIS QUESTION YOU WILL HAVE PROBLEMS UNDERSTANDING WHY THIS  INFORMATION IS BEING GIVEN RIGHT HERE


(ANSWER)

Revelation 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelation 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

Revelation 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

NOW
Revelation 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Revelation 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.


 

7th Seal  SILENCE IN HEAVEN - GIVEN THE 7 TRUMPETS - WRATH OF THE LAMB
7th Trump  THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD AND OF HIS CHRIST AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR EVER AND EVER  
7th Vial   IT IS DONE

THE SPIRITUAL MEANING OF NUMBERS WILL ALWAYS HELP   
666  SATAN
777  CHRIST  



Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
 

It just wasn't Pre anything.   Certainly is is pre: it is pre the wrath of God. THEY get sudden destruction: God's wrath - but WE get salvation: we get raptured and get to "live together with Him." Remember, God will not set any appointments FOR US with His wrath. THEY get the appointments - WE get raptured.  So the rapture is pre-wrath. 

PAUL...CORRECTS THE RECIPENTS OF THAT 1st LETTER (us) WHEN HE WRITES ( FOR GOD )
This is not truth. We have BOTH Paul's first letter (we have been discussing it) and we have Paul's second letter. Perhaps you meant the letter or prophecy or what ever they got that told them "the DAY" had already come. 

Before we get into a good discussion of 2 thes. 2; could you answer a simple question on that passage?

In 2 thes. 2:3, at the end of the verse, is the man of sin revealed (in Paul's written argument) or not?  

PAUL YOUR PRE TRIB, IS IN FACT, A POST TRIB   I will hold my discussion of this passage until you answer my question. 

YE SHALL SEE.  Jesus speaks to Christians.    Hold on Sis! Jesus is alive. So no Christians alive yet either. NO ONE can be born again until after He dies.  Actually,  Jesus is speaking to JEWISH MEN about the end of THEIR age.  If you doubt me, read Matthew 24:15.  What is it they SEE? The abomination. And WHOSE "week" is this an abomination for?  It is DANIEL'S 70th week. It is for DANIEL'S people. It is not for the church, it is for the Jews and Hebrews. So you missed it entirely here. You cannot find a verse anywhere that states these 7 years are for the church. But Daniel Himself tells us it is for HIS PEOPLE. 

THE 6TH SEAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WRATH EXCEPT      telling THAT DAY HAS ARRIVED  What proof have they seen that the DAy of His wrath has arrived? As Isaiah 2 shows us, the great earthquake is God's wrath. 

Isaiah 2:²¹ To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

So they SAW the earthquake, they SAW the sun turn dark, and they SAW the moon turn to blood. They saw enough then to know that THE DAY had come.  

Isaiah 13:⁹ Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Notice what this DAY is about: it comes with wrath and fierce anger!

However, if you choose the 6th seal as the announcement of His wrath, and His wrath then starting with the trumpet judgments, I would not argue. I think His wrath begins right here at the 6th seal. the 5th seal martyrs are told they must wait for the very last martyr before Judgment can come, and it appears then judgment comes with this great sudden destruction earthquake.  This is further proven to be the rapture because John then saw this great crowd in heaven just after the 6th seal.  

Then Paul tells us that God will not be setting any appointments with His wrath, which tells us He WILL be setting appointments with His wrath for all those left behind: the sudden destruction then being a part of His wrath. 

PAUL YOUR PRE TRIB, IS IN FACT, A POST TRIB    No, it is pre. The "trib" starts with the 7th seal and first trumpet. The church will be in heaven by that time; having been caught up just before the start of the DAY of His wrath and just before that sudden destruction earthquake. 

THIS is the WRATH OF the LAMB.  NOT GOD.   It does say, "hide us from the wrath of the Lamb." But ask yourself: WHEN does the Lamb come with wrath? It is not until chapter 19? 

Gods Wrath is poured out. IN  Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Yet we read that the DAY of His wrath has started at the 6th seal, we read that "His wrath is come" in chapter 11. The truth is, God's wrath begins with the DAY of His wrath and continues on through the ENTIRE 70th week.  I would say His wrath peaks in the vials that are filled with His wrath.  Note: just because the vials are said to be vials of wrath does not mean God was not angry before the vials. In fact, John proves this. Every trumpet judgment comes with His wrath for they are in the DAY of His wrath. 
 

The 6th seal SATAN CAST OUT OF HEAVEN  Sorry, you have "jumped the gun." Go back and read in chapter 12: THAT is when the war in heaven comes. Satan will remain as God of this world UNTIL the 7th trumpet. 

Sorry, Sis: you put out a lot of information, but I think it was mostly error.  You and I don't read scriptures the same way. 

[Diaste]

On 8/1/2020 at 5:13 PM, DeighAnn said:

ONE reason I am NOT a believer in the "theory" of rapture is because I have not found anything written that doesn't fit perfectly with a 2nd Advent and a 2nd Advent only.  All the verses i have so far been given or are "used" to prove "another" coming/returning (never can remember which word is used for which event because to me they say the same thing)

I find lacking in some sort of truth or need to be twisted just a bit to fit elsewhere.    

For instance:

...and by our gathering together unto him...that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

To me this means there WILL be no other TIME, TYPE, PERSON OR PLACE, WHERE any sort 'of gathering' will BE ALLOWED TO TAKE PLACE.

because any sort of gathering would render this VOID. 

Does God do that to His own Word?  whether it is a detail of the angels do the gathering or just our gathering unto Him...you know what I mean.  

So my question is from THE SCRIPTURES 

Are there any verses that RENDER only one more ADVENT impossible? 

(please none of the "not appointed to, kept from, churches not found..." verses that are not specific to time and place, just those in contrast with the Day of the Lord)

Another question I have is 
What places,  if there were to be a Pre trib rap,  is the entire event left out as if it doesn't exist?

For instance when Jesus was reading in Isaiah He stopped midway through a sentence and told us "this day is this fulfilled" leaving the day of vengeance not read by Him.  To me, seeing it was speaking to His days, it would have been "incorrect" not to mention "the billion person leaving of the earth in the same instant day He 1/2 returns" at that point.  

 

Good stuff. Prepare for frustration 'cause they don't have answers.

I have asked a similar question. 

"If the tribulation saints are shown in heaven redeemed, robes washed in the blood of the Lamb and standing around the throne, then where do we see the billions strong pretrib group of saints in heaven?"

There is never an answer.

[Diaste]

19 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1  Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Pretrib relies on two comings: one in the clouds and another in the air, as though they are different and separated by 7 years.(which itself is incorrect)

They fail to see the details in one of their major proofs of pretrib, the verse above.

"...caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." 

Caught up in the clouds and meeting the Lord in the air happen at the same time, not 7 years apart.