Are there any verses that DONT FIT in the 2nd Advent

[DeighAnn]

ONE reason I am NOT a believer in the "theory" of rapture is because I have not found anything written that doesn't fit perfectly with a 2nd Advent and a 2nd Advent only.  All the verses i have so far been given or are "used" to prove "another" coming/returning (never can remember which word is used for which event because to me they say the same thing)

I find lacking in some sort of truth or need to be twisted just a bit to fit elsewhere.    

For instance:

...and by our gathering together unto him...that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

To me this means there WILL be no other TIME, TYPE, PERSON OR PLACE, WHERE any sort 'of gathering' will BE ALLOWED TO TAKE PLACE.

because any sort of gathering would render this VOID. 

Does God do that to His own Word?  whether it is a detail of the angels do the gathering or just our gathering unto Him...you know what I mean.  

So my question is from THE SCRIPTURES 

Are there any verses that RENDER only one more ADVENT impossible? 

(please none of the "not appointed to, kept from, churches not found..." verses that are not specific to time and place, just those in contrast with the Day of the Lord)

Another question I have is 
What places,  if there were to be a Pre trib rap,  is the entire event left out as if it doesn't exist?

For instance when Jesus was reading in Isaiah He stopped midway through a sentence and told us "this day is this fulfilled" leaving the day of vengeance not read by Him.  To me, seeing it was speaking to His days, it would have been "incorrect" not to mention "the billion person leaving of the earth in the same instant day He 1/2 returns" at that point.  

 

[Son of Israel]

2 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

ONE reason I am NOT a believer in the "theory" of rapture is because I have not found anything written that doesn't fit perfectly with a 2nd Advent and a 2nd Advent only.  All the verses i have so far been given or are "used" to prove "another" coming/returning (never can remember which word is used for which event because to me they say the same thing)

I find lacking in some sort of truth or need to be twisted just a bit to fit elsewhere.    

For instance:

...and by our gathering together unto him...that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

To me this means there WILL be no other TIME, TYPE, PERSON OR PLACE, WHERE any sort 'of gathering' will BE ALLOWED TO TAKE PLACE.

because any sort of gathering would render this VOID. 

Does God do that to His own Word?  whether it is a detail of the angels do the gathering or just our gathering unto Him...you know what I mean.  

So my question is from THE SCRIPTURES 

Are there any verses that RENDER only one more ADVENT impossible? 

(please none of the "not appointed to, kept from, churches not found..." verses that are not specific to time and place, just those in contrast with the Day of the Lord)

Another question I have is 
What places,  if there were to be a Pre trib rap,  is the entire event left out as if it doesn't exist?

For instance when Jesus was reading in Isaiah He stopped midway through a sentence and told us "this day is this fulfilled" leaving the day of vengeance not read by Him.  To me, seeing it was speaking to His days, it would have been "incorrect" not to mention "the billion person leaving of the earth in the same instant day He 1/2 returns" at that point.  

 

Good points. 

I happen to believe that all scriptures speak of NOW, to each man in his own present order.  (except of course, the burning destruction of Jerusalem A.D.70)

(1Co 15:23)  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Presence. (YLT)

Christ came to men 2000 years ago at Pentecost as the Holy Spirit, as Promised, and never left them. He CAME. We can read of it in Acts 2. 
He has Come to every man, every day, since then, "each in his own order"... Christ was Present with them then, just as He Came and is Present in me, and He will never leave nor forsake them/me/us

Now is the time of salvation, to receive the Coming of the Lord.  Not to stand around gazing up into heaven for a "rapture" or some other doctrine of man.

(Rev 3:20)  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

(Rom 13:11)  And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

(2Co 6:2)  (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

The last thing I am going to do, is look to some man argued future "event" supposedly yet to happen, beyond the redemption of my body, when all has been done for me by Jesus already.  Hence He says;

(Mat 6:34)  Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


 

[DeighAnn]

59 minutes ago, Son of Israel said:

I happen to believe that all scriptures speak of NOW, to each man in his own present order.  (except of course, the burning destruction of Jerusalem A.D.70)

Yes, I agree.  Good points also for the most part.  So no verses though to dispute anything more than one more coming, the 2nd Advent?  Me neither.  


 

[Son of Israel]

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Yes, I agree.  Good points also for the most part.  So no verses though to dispute anything more than one more coming, the 2nd Advent?  Me neither.  


 

Right. There is only one scripture where "second" is ever mentioned concerning Jesus appearance to us, and it is;

(Heb 9:28)  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Here is when that "appearing" occurs, when our flesh body is finally dead;

(Heb 9:28)  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he >>>appear<<< the second time without sin unto salvation.

(1Jn 3:2)  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall >>>appear<<<, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

This is when we "put off this earthly tabernacle";

2Co 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Everyone who has died in Christ before us, to them Christ "appears the second time"

And of course, in order for that "second time" to happen, he had to have "appeared" to each of us a FIRST time!

Which is of course;

1Th_4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise >>>first<<<:

Which is of course;

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus knocks on our door, we open it, we SEE Him!

(Rev 3:20)  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Here is HOW we See Him Come to us the >>>First time<<<

(2Co 4:6)  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Since we've already DIED the first death in baptism as above, "the second death (of our bodies), has no power over us

(Rev 2:11)  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the >>>second death<<<.

The folk who believe the eschatology doctrines of futurism and dispensationalism, miss out on the glorious Gospel of Receiving Christ Now, putting it off into the future, are the virgins without oil in their lamps.  When their hour comes, they have no home.  

I am so glad to meet you, you have such wisdom and understanding DeighAnn!  You are Blessed in Christ's Name <3
 

[R. Hartono]

Jesus told us

the wise virgins shall be taken but the foolish shall be left n yell.

If this doesnt mean anything then it is given for no good to you.

 

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ONE reason I am NOT a believer in the "theory" of rapture is because I have not found anything written that doesn't fit perfectly with a 2nd Advent and a 2nd Advent only.  All the verses i have so far been given or are "used" to prove "another" coming/returning (never can remember which word is used for which event because to me they say the same thing)

I find lacking in some sort of truth or need to be twisted just a bit to fit elsewhere.    

For instance:

...and by our gathering together unto him...that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

To me this means there WILL be no other TIME, TYPE, PERSON OR PLACE, WHERE any sort 'of gathering' will BE ALLOWED TO TAKE PLACE.

because any sort of gathering would render this VOID. 

Does God do that to His own Word?  whether it is a detail of the angels do the gathering or just our gathering unto Him...you know what I mean.  

So my question is from THE SCRIPTURES 

Are there any verses that RENDER only one more ADVENT impossible? 

(please none of the "not appointed to, kept from, churches not found..." verses that are not specific to time and place, just those in contrast with the Day of the Lord)

Another question I have is 
What places,  if there were to be a Pre trib rap,  is the entire event left out as if it doesn't exist?

For instance when Jesus was reading in Isaiah He stopped midway through a sentence and told us "this day is this fulfilled" leaving the day of vengeance not read by Him.  To me, seeing it was speaking to His days, it would have been "incorrect" not to mention "the billion person leaving of the earth in the same instant day He 1/2 returns" at that point.  
 

Question: does 1 Thes. 4 use the word "coming?"  I am sure it does.

Question: does Rev. 19 use the word "coming?"  I am sure it does not. Yet from the words written we know it is a "coming." 

Question: can anyone find anything "common" between the coming in 1 Thes. 4 and in Rev. 19?  

In one coming He comes to the air, and remains hidden in clouds. In other other coming every eye will see Him.

In one coming He is coming FOR His saints, while in the other, He is coming WITH His saints.

In one coming He is preparing for a marriage; in another coming He is preparing for WAR.

In one coming the timing is when people are saying peace and safety - a day just like today: in the other coming the world will be in shock

 

In other words, I see differences, not similarities. 

[DeighAnn]

On 8/2/2020 at 5:42 AM, iamlamad said:

Question: does 1 Thes. 4 use the word "coming?"  I am sure it does.

Question: does Rev. 19 use the word "coming?"  I am sure it does not. Yet from the words written we know it is a "coming." 

Question: can anyone find anything "common" between the coming in 1 Thes. 4 and in Rev. 19?  

In one coming He comes to the air, and remains hidden in clouds. In other other coming every eye will see Him.

In one coming He is coming FOR His saints, while in the other, He is coming WITH His saints.

In one coming He is preparing for a marriage; in another coming He is preparing for WAR.

In one coming the timing is when people are saying peace and safety - a day just like today: in the other coming the world will be in shock

 

In other words, I see differences, not similarities. 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
IS THIS THE ONE, THE ONE WITH A SHOUT AND  WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL AND THE TRUMP OF GOD YOU SAY HE REMAINS HIDDEN? 

ARE YOU SAYING THAT NOT EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM WITH ALL THAT GOING ON?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If THOSE who are alive and remain are caught up, who WOULD BE LEFT?  

Anyhow
Have you considered 
 

Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about WITH SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES , let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; WHO FOR THE JOY THAT WAS SET BEFORE HIM ENDURED the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
What a GREAT EXAMPLE for us to follow, no better love...and the REWARDS to follow...talk about GREAT WORKS....especially since we are told  And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.  I find this quite telling about "death of the flesh" and how it means LITTLE in comparison.  

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth EVERY son whom he receiveth.

Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Hebrews 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

Hebrews 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

 

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Revelation 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Just like "a cloud of witnesses" , or coming in the clouds.  We are to look for the SPIRITUAL TRUTH OF THE MATTER, not the letter.  if we don't we have come no further than those Jesus faced while he walked the earth.  

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

Revelation 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

Revelation 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

YOU SAY:  In one coming He is coming FOR His saints, while in the other, He is coming WITH His saints.

 

1  Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
HIS SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED (ASLEEP)

1  Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
HIS SAINTS ARE COMING WITH HIM

1  Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1  Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1  Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

FOR HIS SAINTS
 

40  hagios  Saints
set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred

word studies
properly, different (unlike), other, holy, for the believer.  
Means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world"

different from the world because like the Lord

YOU SAY :   In one coming He is preparing for a marriage; (would that be after the war in heaven or before?)
Please let me know which verses you are using for "this" pre trib  marriage.  



YOU say:  In one coming the timing is when people are saying peace and safety - a day just like today: in the other coming the world will be in shock


You believe that people of the world are saying peace and safety TODAY?  REALLY?  
And why will the WORLD be in shock?  Because HE comes as a thief, UNEXPECTEDLY,  TO THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW.  


To us, who have put on the gospel armor, He does NOT come as a thief.  We have remained in the field working.  We have not suffered our house to be broken into.  We have not allowed ourselves to be taken in by the lies and deception.  We were not deceived by any man.  We have been watching and warning as we are instructed to do, as a watchman does.  We have stood, overcome and endured to the end.  We know what time it is.  We know the season.   


BUT does anyone know the day and hour?  NO  But the time and season YES

Even as close as we are, still not a hint of when that hour is.  Just like we were told we would not know.  

































































 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first
IS THIS THE ONE, THE ONE WITH A SHOUT AND  WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL AND THE TRUMP OF GOD YOU SAY HE REMAINS HIDDEN? 

ARE YOU SAYING THAT NOT EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM WITH ALL THAT GOING ON?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If THOSE who are alive and remain are caught up, who WOULD BE LEFT?  

Have you ever watched a plane gaining elevation from take off, suddenly disappear into a cloud? Most people have. The clouds HIDE the plane.  The plane is there, inside the cloud, but is hidden from view.

Without much doubt, Jesus will be in a glory cloud.  I therefore suspect He will be hidden from view of those on earth.  If He is hidden in a cloud, how then could "every eye see Him?" 

On the other hand, 7 years later when there is supernatural darkness, neither the sun, or moon or stars seen on earth, and Christ comes as lightning flashing from East to West across a dark sky, as is written, could ever eye see Him in this scenario? it seems much more likely. Lightning lighting up a dark sky is VERY VISIBLE. 

Let's first answer, WHO is caught up? Note in verse 16 Paul is speaking of a subset of humanity: those that are "IN CHRIST."  Therefore, we could write, 

Then we [that are IN CHRIST] which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

The answer to your question then is simple: all the dead and all the living who are NOT "in Christ" will be left behind. 

In other words, this is not a "general" resurrection: it is a resurrection and catching up ONLY of the Bride on Christ.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Have you considered 
...

YOU SAY:  In one coming He is coming FOR His saints, while in the other, He is coming WITH His saints.
 

1  Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
HIS SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED (ASLEEP)

1  Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
HIS SAINTS ARE COMING WITH HIM

1  Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1  Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1  Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

FOR HIS SAINTS

YOU SAY:  In one coming He is coming FOR His saints, while in the other, He is coming WITH His saints.
Actually, Paul said it.  1 thes. 4 shows He is coming FOR His saints....that would be FOR His "resurrected saints." The dead in Christ have been with him since they died in Christ. But they are not complete: they are without bodies. Jesus will certainly bring them with Him to meet with their new resurrection bodies, so they will be complete once again.  And for those who are alive and in Christ who are caught up, they are changed into resurrection bodies.  It will be the day of Resurrection for the church - but ONLY for the church at that time. 

I will agree, Christ will come WITH the dead in Christ saints, [their spirit and soul only] but that so they can join with their resurrection bodies that will fly up out of the graves. When He comes for Armageddon He will come WITH His saints, Old Testament saints, New Testament saints, ALL with resurrection bodies. 

[DeighAnn]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Have you ever watched a plane gaining elevation from take off, suddenly disappear into a cloud? Most people have. The clouds HIDE the plane.  The plane is there, inside the cloud, but is hidden from view.

Without much doubt, Jesus will be in a glory cloud.  I therefore suspect He will be hidden from view of those on earth.  If He is hidden in a cloud, how then could "every eye see Him?" 

On the other hand, 7 years later when there is supernatural darkness, neither the sun, or moon or stars seen on earth, and Christ comes as lightning flashing from East to West across a dark sky, as is written, could ever eye see Him in this scenario? it seems much more likely. Lightning lighting up a dark sky is VERY VISIBLE. 

Let's first answer, WHO is caught up? Note in verse 16 Paul is speaking of a subset of humanity: those that are "IN CHRIST."  Therefore, we could write, 

Then we [that are IN CHRIST] which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them...

The answer to your question then is simple: all the dead and all the living who are NOT "in Christ" will be left behind. 

In other words, this is not a "general" resurrection: it is a resurrection and catching up ONLY of the Bride on Christ.

THE TRUMP OF GOD?  Does that sound like any kind of hiding going on?  DO you really believe THE WORLD that GOD created wouldn't HEAR the Trump of GOD?   The SHOUT?  More hiding?  The voice of archangel?  More hiding?  Shouting, trumpets, voices.....

Be reasonable.  

And THE DEAD in Christ resurrect first.  That takes of those you say would be left behind.  THEY ARE ALREADY GONE. 


(unless you don't believe that God is the God of the living and not the dead

or that 

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.   
Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.)

Can you imagine the fear of hearing that SHOUT?  You'd just DIE, wouldn't you?  Especially if you were realizing at the same time YOU HAD BEEN DECEIVED and had been worshipping THE ADVERSARY? 



 

3 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

YOU SAY :   In one coming He is preparing for a marriage; (would that be after the war in heaven or before?)
Please let me know which verses you are using for "this" pre trib  marriage. 

COULD YOU GIVE ME THESE?