ORDER OF EVENTS

[Marathoner]

This body incorruptible is borne by the angels of God, even those sons of God who left their first estate as recorded in the book of Genesis (and mentioned in the NT). What these Watchers did was an abomination in the sight of the Lord, taking daughters of men (mortal flesh) as wives. Their progeny were Nephilim, those mighty men of old. The giants were among their detestable children. The book of Joshua tells the story of how the Lord used the nation of Israel to purge their taint from the promised land. We see hints of the greater spiritual battle at hand recorded in the scriptures: for example, when Joshua met the Captain of the God's Army in Joshua 5:13-15. This is a remarkable passage (quoted from the NASB),

Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us or for our adversaries?” He said, “No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the Lord.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, “What has my lord to say to his servant?” The captain of the Lord’s host said to Joshua, “Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so. 

There's more to this passage than meets the eye.  

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Justin Adams said:

1st Enoch is a book/scroll that was reflected in much in the Second Temple literature and stuff that the early church read and quoted and alluded to in the New Testament. Without a first century Jewish perspective (Divine Council/ Deut 32 worldview) much of the WHOLE bible (LXX and early Hebrew) will not make much sense. It seems that a non-supernatural understanding has replaced much of what used to be well understood.

We have to put aside our doctrines and dogmas when they replace what God has said and the scriptures He gave us. The modern 21st century worldview is quite foreign to the very early church's worldview. Qumran texts can highlight this for us if we actually study them.

This is why I suggest Dr Hesier's UNSEEN REALM and REVERSING HERMON. Dr Heiser has devoted his life to studying peer-review scholarship and making it readable and understandable for ordinary people. He has many 'NAKED BIBLE' podcasts on YouTube and is a renown and respected authority.

I think that is why the dead sea scrolls were found when they were.  Just when it was being put forth how "corrupted" the Word had become God says "SEE".  Love His Works.  

[DeighAnn]

42 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

1 Enoch (The Book of Enoch) is worth reading, sister. You can find it published online at ccel.org, no download required. 

My old friend, the elder who preached the Gospel to me many years ago, gave me to access his library which was my first exposure to early Christian literature as well as the Septuagint. A great example of early Christian literature is a letter to the Corinthians written by Polycarp, an elder of the church at Smyrna who was alive during the time of the apostles. Polycarp is widely regarded to have been a student of the apostle John; he wrote the letter to the Corinthians after Paul was martyred, encouraging them in the faith to stand fast in what Paul had given to them. We'll remember Smyrna as one of the two churches the Lord praised from the book of Revelation.  

Let me explain it this way.  What I know, I know comes from the Bible as presented to me today.  I don't get "what I do know"  mixed up with anything from another source that used to be "included".   

I don't trust my brain enough to not start "mixing". 

I have the Apocrypha, have had it for many years, and still can't bring myself to read it because of that very fear. 
I DO feel that ONE DAY God will "lead" me to it.  Until that time, I can't/won't, no matter how good it may be.  

I think a lot of people on these forums have gone to school for this stuff because of all the words and history they know.  Things I know nothing of.  I had to look up the word "eschatology" and to this day can't spell it right without spell checker.  

So, I will add it to my list.  I was just wondering what verses were referred to "Enoch" so I could see if they were also found in the OT.  I do like to give 2nd witnesses to verses.   Idk, maybe that day is coming because I do seem to be hearing it more often.  Only God knows.  Where He leads me is where I go.  But thank you.  I really will add it to the list.    

[Marathoner]

28 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Let me explain it this way.  What I know, I know comes from the Bible as presented to me today.  I don't get "what I do know"  mixed up with anything from another source that used to be "included".   

I don't trust my brain enough to not start "mixing". 

I have the Apocrypha, have had it for many years, and still can't bring myself to read it because of that very fear. 
I DO feel that ONE DAY God will "lead" me to it.  Until that time, I can't/won't, no matter how good it may be.  

I think a lot of people on these forums have gone to school for this stuff because of all the words and history they know.  Things I know nothing of.  I had to look up the word "eschatology" and to this day can't spell it right without spell checker.  

So, I will add it to my list.  I was just wondering what verses were referred to "Enoch" so I could see if they were also found in the OT.  I do like to give 2nd witnesses to verses.   Idk, maybe that day is coming because I do seem to be hearing it more often.  Only God knows.  Where He leads me is where I go.  But thank you.  I really will add it to the list.    

The sixth chapter of Genesis:

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (verses 1-5 KJV)

Other translations like the NASB substitute Nephilim for "giants." I quote from the NASB sparingly on the forum due to copyright restrictions. I like to refer to more than one translation in my studies.  

Numbers 13:25-33, the spies' report. The descendants of Anak are Nephilim, making the Hebrew spies feel like "grasshoppers" in comparison. Anak, the son of Arba, was a Nephilim.

Joshua 15:13-15 describes Caleb driving out three children of Anak (Nephilim). 

2 Samuel 21:15-22 All of us are familiar with Goliath, the Philistine Nephilim whom David slew. 

The letter from Jude refers to those angels who left their first estate, bound in everlasting chains until the day of judgment (the day of the Lord), verse 6. Verses 14-15 mention Enoch, the seventh from Adam, and quotes from the Book of Enoch (the Lord is coming with ten thousands of His saints...)

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

This is entirely incorrect. The two men at Sodom with Lot were Holy Ones of God.

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There are many occurrences of the unseen realm being seen when it suits them and the Lord. Peter in jail was physically STRUCK by an Holy One in order to awaken him and help in his escape.

Yes, and rolled the stone at the tomb, but to think that they can impregnate women, no.

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What we are never taught (and much else) is that the SPIRITUAL Cosmos engulfs our physicality. The unseen is what is truly REAL. It bleeds over into our natural realm often. A spiritual existence is just as real as our existence. It is perhaps more real since it engulfs our natural world and surrounds and contains it.

A deep statement, indeed.

Spirit is SUBSTANCE but a

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different one to our natural physical being.

Right!

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Uriah
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[Sister]

10 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Sister I have also provided information that men were/are called the sons of God. 

Hi Uriah

Yes I am aware of that fact, and quoted this scripture in particular to acknowledge;

John 1:12   But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

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In Job, there is no particular reason that it cannot be men, except to disregard the way it may have been meant vs the way modern English readers see it.

The conversation between God and Satan was not on earth in the company of men, but in heaven amongst the company of angels.  What God set out to do was prove Satan wrong, and that conversation was recorded so that we could know also, that this war is spiritual, and no spirit can touch one of God's holy one's unless God allows it.  The accuser in heaven thinks that Job only loved God because of all his blessings, and if taken away then Job would curse God....like Satan himself also did.  God proved in the end that true love does exist, for him amongst his children, not just because of blessings, but through hard times also.

 

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Even so, God having assemblies of angels is one thing (seen by shepherds, in Revelation etc., and the list you provided) proving that they could procreate is quite another. 

Genesis tells the story, not me.

Genesis 6:4   There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
 

The interpretation is in the scripture.  Those 'giants' are these 'sons of God'.  Those sons of God were angels who left their estate, ...let their duties and responsibilites assigned to them.  They were not supposed to mingle with man, but go about the Lord's business.  They made their appearance known first.  They made themselves visible which angels are not supposed to do unless commanded.  These are intelligent creatures, they would of impressed man by their knowledge, and to men, they would of seemed like gods because of their abilities, before actually taking wives.  They didn't take wives straight away, but built up to this.  So they were there first, impressed the peoples and then did that act.  They took the most beautiful women, and I can say confidently, that these women were all putting their hands up and were not taken by force.

 

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When you say, "they can never do this again", when was this imposed? At the flood, after it? Any biblical record of this decree? As I see it, when the angels were created they were made, "spirits".

They can never 'produce children' again with man.  I have heard lots of testimonies where women were raped during the night by evil spirits.  Some in the occults, even witchcraft have experienced this and spoke about it.  Even some celebrities.   It's an ugly thing to speak about, but it happens.  The only difference is that they cannot produce children again.

Those angels before the flood were put in prison and were made an example to the other angels.

 1 Peter 3:19   By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 1 Peter 3:20   Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

  Jude 1:6   And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

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Spirits have no physicality, and certainly cannot do what ONLY GOD has ever done-incarnation. 

Spirits cannot die like us and come back from the dead, but they can change into flesh and eat with us etc, like God's angels did when they met with Abraham and Lot.

 

[Charlie744]

Sister, there certainly is more than a few examples where angels come into the physical world and interact with mankind... and you and Uriah have both contributed verses that support your interpretations - and the more I read on this subject, it is absolutely clear this has been discussed a gazillion times over the past 2,000 years or more, and these two views will stay alive until the second coming!

From my point of view, it doesn’t make sense that God would allow angels to procreate with mankind. 

The angels were created before man. Only man was made in the image of God - angels were created for their own purpose or mission, and procreation was not one of them. Personally, I firmly believe the angels, especially Satan who was given everything- beauty, power, authority, etc, above ALL angels, could not deal with God creating man in His image- they were to have a more personal relationship with God- something Satan could NEVER accomplish no matter how superior / perfect he was made- he was still an angel- hired help, never to be a son or daughter of God—- he wasn’t going to stand for this!

If he (Satan) had that ability, he should have simply had relations with Eve under the Apple tree... but he could not because he could only lie and deceive!

Jesus makes a comment in Matthew 22:30: “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.”

Since I have been on this site I have witnessed folks using the exact same verses supporting their position and where they were miles apart in their interpretations. 

And since I have been attempting to understand Daniel I have read experts, scholars and expositors (over the past 2,000 years) claim their interpretation is solid, complete and throughly supported by Scripture, yet the next page or paper expressing a completely different interpretation makes the identical statements.

So, from a (my) common sense view, God made it a point to separate His creation of angels from mankind, AND specifically tell us we are made in His image. Angels are not purposed for this function nor are they ever to be sons and daughters of God. 

Just my opinion, Charlie 

[Justin Adams]

Please learn the difference between haSatan (opposer)and 'satan' the proper noun as used in the NT. In the Tanakh haSatan is even used of the Lord's representative. Understand Hebrew and then the Holy Ones of God will make sense. haSatan is NOT ontological in the Tanakh.

Psalm 82 etc. Sons of the Most High. These are Holy Ones of God's Divine Council. Mentioned many times in the Tanakh. At the creation these Holy Supernatural beings rejoiced (Job). To translate it otherwise is wrong!!

A number of translations err. The Holy ones are just like us with intellect, volition and skill. They have choice as well. God likes His free beings to be able to choose. It is the Way He IS. He can never be threatened, but he can be saddened.

Angels are just the messengers of God. The Watcher class know the secrets of God and they came down to earth on Mount Hermon and devised methods to subvert and procreate with humans. The scriptures are replete with 'gods against our God' and Israel against the nations. It is God's intention to regather all the Babel scatterings and redeem human kind thru Yeshua to live and reign with Him and His holy ones at the eschaton - the New Eden.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Justin Adams

[Charlie744]

Thank you for your opinion... So difficult to respond to this!

As I mentioned earlier, the angels certainly do have free choice, and unfortunately, too many decided to follow Satan!

But they are not capable of having sexual relationships with mankind, but if you are comfortable with that, go for it!

Watcher class knowing secrets of God?

Using that valuable (secret) information to come down to Mt. Hermon .... to procreate with humans? 

Amazing!!!!

 

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you for your opinion... So difficult to respond to this!

As I mentioned earlier, the angels certainly do have free choice, and unfortunately, too many decided to follow Satan!

But they are not capable of having sexual relationships with mankind, but if you are comfortable with that, go for it!

Watcher class knowing secrets of God?

Using that valuable (secret) information to come down to Mt. Hermon .... to procreate with humans? 

Amazing!!!!

 

I suggest you read Dr. Heiser's 'Reversing Hermon' and his book 'Unseen realm'. It is unassailable logic and much scholarship that goes into his books and naked Bible podcasts. Hesier only deals with peer-review scholarship and is highly respected. He is an evangelical and a solid Christian.

Even if you do not WANT to believe, I suggest an open mind and much study. You may be surprised...