When is the rapture?

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1 hour ago, HAZARD said:

 

 

Matthew 24:  36, But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

This was true when Jesus said it, but after that Jesus received ALL power in heaven and earth.

So He knew when the "day" was before He ascended, or He didn't receive ALL power, He would have received only some power.

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The "day" he spoke of in Matt 24 was the day of the Lord against Jerusalem in 67-70 AD.

The reason that no one knew was that it wasn't revealed exactly when that day would be.

Israel could have accepted the Pentecost gospel kingdom, they had to have the opportunity to accept it.

But even though it was prophecy that they wouldn't, they had to have the chance.

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Jesus gave us the Revelation that tells us when He is coming for the kingdom.

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So if some one tells you that Jesus still, at this time, doesn't know the "day,"

It is a complete falsehood and should be challenged as a false teaching.

(Of course they almost always say, "Just take my word for it.")

 

[The Light]

On 8/22/2020 at 6:37 AM, Moby said:

Good morning Brethren!

Brother "Alive" sent me over here to ask this question I posted in "Worthy Welcome".

I have been looking for a good explanation on the timing of the rapture as there seems to be so much dissension out there among the brethren as to whether it happens before 7 years of tribulation, 3.5 years into the tribulation, or after the tribulation.

I am so tired of opening link after link where the teachers give nothing more than their opinions on when this event happens with the same verses that really have nothing to do with the timing of the rapture before, during, or after the tribulation.

Confusing isn't it. Pre trib, mid trib, pre wath, post trib, oh the choices. And each can make a case as to why they are right and others are wrong. That should get you thinking.

Quote

When I searched for "the rapture is after the tribulation" this link came up on the first page:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

In all of my searches on the subject of the rapture, this is the first link that provides multitudes of scripture to prove there is another full year after the 7 years of tribulation that the author says is when the "day of the Lord" takes place.

Has anyone here ever heard of this teaching? I would have copied and pasted the contents of the link here but it is just too voluminous with scripture so could someone with a hunger of this topic take a look at it so we can discuss it as it certainly has my attention?

Let me start by telling you this is a very convincing article and well written. Since it's so long, let me just point out a few of the errors.

1) He points out that there is not a distinction between Jews and Gentiles. While this is true, there is certainly a distinction between the timing of their salvation.

John 10 tells us there is one fold that both groups will be brought into

John 10

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

And yet we know that the Jews are currently blinded and cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah. When will part of Israel see that Jesus is the Messiah? When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That event will occur when the Church is raptured pre trib.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Is there going to be a harvest of the Jews?

Rom 11

¹¹ I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

¹² Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

2) He claims that the woman in Rev 12 is the Church. The woman in Rev 12 are those in the nation of Israel that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up.

If the woman is the Church, then who is the seed of the woman?

Rev 12

¹⁷ And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The woman is Israel and the seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth. The twelve tribes across the earth have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. They are the ones that are raptured pre wrath.

We see the first fruits of this coming rapture in Rev 14

Rev 14

 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel guarantee the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth.

3) He provides the example of the wheat and tares growing up together before the harvest, but he doesn't understand when that particular harvest occurs.

The author says, "Jesus is letting both the wheat and the tares grow together in the world until the tribulation commences. Then 7 years of increasing tribulation will prove the wheat from the tares. The tares will be gathered up FIRST into bundles for the fires of hell:"

Here is the harvest that occurs just before the wrath of God begins. We see in this harvest that the righteous are gathered 1st into the clouds.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

4) He claims that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals onto the ark, but the Word says they were loaded in one day. It floods 7 days after they are on the ark.

He says,"So the last 7 days of Noah’s time, before the flood waters began on the earth, were spent entering the physical ark with his physical family as a type of the last 7 years left for us to bring our spiritual family to the spiritual ark of Christ while enduring great tribulation:"

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

We can see in this verse that Noah, his family, and ALL THE ANIMALS entered the ark on the selfsame day. It did not take 7 days for Noah to enter the ark. It all happened in one day, 7 days before the flood. Even as the Church will be in heaven during the 7 year tribulation, 7 years before wrath.

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

5) He claims there is a one year wrath of God after the 7 years.

There is a 3 1/2 year wrath of God after the 7 years. The prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth happens just before the wrath of God. We can see in Daniel 12 the great tributation and a rapture. How many day left, after this event? Time, times and half a time, 3 1/2 years.

Dan 12

12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12

⁶ And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

⁷ And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

In conclusion:

We are told we can escape ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS.

Luke 21

³⁶ Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

What things? Nations rising against nations, famines, pestilence and the signs from heaven.

Luke 21

⁹ But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

¹⁰ Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

¹¹ And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

So the Church can escape all the things that will come to pass in the last days. They will be raptured in the pretribulation rapture. The 24 elders have received their white robes and crowns in Revelation 4

Rev 4

⁴ And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The 24 elders are speaking for all the tribes of the earth that have been raptured in Revelation 5.

Rev 5

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

At the end of the 70th week of Daniel, the 7 year tribulation, there will be a gathering from heaven and earth. The Church will gathered from heaven and the 12 tribes across the earth will be gathered from the earth. The rest of the earth will be cast into the wrath of God. That's what is seen in Rev 14.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The nation of Israel remains on the earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

Two raptures, one pretrib for the Church (Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood), one prewrath for the tribes across the earth (the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came).

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

17 hours ago, The Light said:

Confusing isn't it. Pre trib, mid trib, pre wath, post trib, oh the choices. And each can make a case as to why they are right and others are wrong. That should get you thinking.

Let me start by telling you this is a very convincing article and well written. Since it's so long, let me just point out a few of the errors.

1) He points out that there is not a distinction between Jews and Gentiles. While this is true, there is certainly a distinction between the timing of their salvation.

2) He claims that the woman in Rev 12 is the Church. The woman in Rev 12 are those in the nation of Israel that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up.

 

If the woman is the Church, then who is the seed of the woman?

The woman is Israel and the seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth. The twelve tribes across the earth have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. They are the ones that are raptured pre wrath.

 

We see the first fruits of this coming rapture in Rev 14

The 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel guarantee the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth.

 

3) He provides the example of the wheat and tares growing up together before the harvest, but he doesn't understand when that particular harvest occurs.

The author says, "Jesus is letting both the wheat and the tares grow together in the world until the tribulation commences. Then 7 years of increasing tribulation will prove the wheat from the tares. The tares will be gathered up FIRST into bundles for the fires of hell:"

Here is the harvest that occurs just before the wrath of God begins. We see in this harvest that the righteous are gathered 1st into the clouds.

4) He claims that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals onto the ark, but the Word says they were loaded in one day. It floods 7 days after they are on the ark.

 

He says,"So the last 7 days of Noah’s time, before the flood waters began on the earth, were spent entering the physical ark with his physical family as a type of the last 7 years left for us to bring our spiritual family to the spiritual ark of Christ while enduring great tribulation:"

5) He claims there is a one year wrath of God after the 7 years.

 

There is a 3 1/2 year wrath of God after the 7 years. The prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth happens just before the wrath of God. We can see in Daniel 12 the great tributation and a rapture. How many day left, after this event? Time, times and half a time, 3 1/2 years.

We are told we can escape ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS.The Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass.

 

What things? Nations rising against nations, famines, pestilence and the signs from heaven.

So the Church can escape all the things that will come to pass in the last days. They will be raptured in the pretribulation rapture. The 24 elders have received their white robes and crowns in Revelation 4

The 24 elders are speaking for all the tribes of the earth that have been raptured in Revelation 5.

The nation of Israel remains on the earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

 

Two raptures, one pretrib for the Church (Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood), one prewrath for the tribes across the earth (the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came).

Thank you Light for responding and actually reading the entire post!

Let's examine each of your claims against scripture to see if they are true starting with this one:

 

"And yet we know that the Jews are currently blinded and cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah."

 

Paul clearly proves in Romans chapter 11 that not all the Jews were blinded but a portion in every generation from the days of Elijah "even so then at Paul's present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace":

 

Romans 11:1-7  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

 

Paul then says he is purposely trying to provoke the Jews through jealousy to save some again proving there are some going to be saved as the Jews over the last 2000 have been reading Paul's NT letters:

Romans 11:11-14  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.

Only some of the branches are being broken off during any given generation past, Paul's present time and in the the future through our present time so some Gentile believers through the years have been and will be grafted in including the soon coming time of 7 years of tribulation:

Romans 11:17-19  But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;  (18)  glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

This passage is proving there will be some from every generation who "continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again":

Romans 11:23-24  And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.  (24)  For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Your next claim:

"When will part of Israel see that Jesus is the Messiah? When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in."

Paul then finishes his point that the ONE olive tree will be completed by the end of the ages when PART of natural Israel branches from both the OT and NT were and are hardened and broken off so the fullness of all the believing Gentiles are grafted into the ONE olive tree called all Israel:

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Your next claim:

"That event will occur when the Church is raptured pre trib."

Paul says the ONE olive tree will only be made up of the ELECT through grace so this ONE olive tree will not be complete until the end of the 7 years of tribulation as this scripture proves:

Matthew 24:21-24 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. (23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not. (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Your next claim:

"The woman in Rev 12 are those in the nation of Israel that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up."

Please notice that the soon to be manchild will be given the power "to rule all the nations with a rod of iron":

Revelation 12:5-6  And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. 

This same power was promised to the overcomers of the 7 predominately Gentile churches:

Revelation 2:26-29  And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:  (27)  and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:  (28)  and I will give him the morning star.  (29)  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

Your next claim:

"The woman is Israel and the seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth."

The very next verse in Revelation chapter 12 refers to the manchild as as "they" which are predominately Gentile believers who are already in their wilderness ready to nourish the woman who will also be predominately Gentile believers with some Jewish believers as Paul proved in Romans chapter 11:

Revelation 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The word "they" in verse 6 clearly proves this manchild is a corporate body of those already in the wilderness as both John the Baptist and Jesus were in their wilderness and desert most of their ministry where they taught:

Matthew 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Matthew 11:7  And as these went their way, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to behold? a reed shaken with the wind?

Mark 6:31-34  And he saith unto them, Come ye yourselves apart into a desert place, and rest a while. For there were many coming and going, and they had no leisure so much as to eat.  (32)  And they went away in the boat to a desert place apart.  (33)  And the people saw them going, and many knew them, and they ran together there on foot from all the cities, and outwent them.  (34)  And he came forth and saw a great multitude, and he had compassion on them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things.

Moses, was a type of Jesus, who came out of Egypt into his wilderness where on the back side was commissioned through God out of the burning bush to go back and lead the Jews into their wilderness to serve God and be proven:

Exodus 7:16  And thou shalt say unto him, Jehovah, the God of the Hebrews, hath sent me unto thee, saying, Let my people go, that they may serve me in the wilderness: and, behold, hitherto thou hast not hearkened.

Exodus 16:4  Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.

Exodus 20:20  And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before you, that ye sin not.

Paul very clearly called those "children of Israel" out there in the wilderness the church proving that the ONE olive tree is the church made up of both Jew and Gentile believers:

Acts 7:37-38  This is that Moses, who said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall God raise up unto you from among your brethren, like unto me.  (38)  This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

History(His~story) must repeat as the church flees into their wilderness at the beginning of the 7 years of tribulation to be proven as well:

Ecclesiastes 1:9-10  That which hath been is that which shall be; and that which hath been done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.  (10)  Is there a thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been long ago, in the ages which were before us.

Revelation 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Your next claim:

"The twelve tribes across the earth have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. They are the ones that are raptured pre wrath."

If there is only ONE olive tree made up of both Jew and Gentile believers who are the ELECT from the times of Genesis until today as Paul proved in Romans chapter 11 then the Jewish and Gentile believers as ONE olive tree will be raptured/resurrected together as ONE!:

Galatians 3:26-29  For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.  (27)  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.  (28)  There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.  (29)  And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Your next claim which is posed as a question I will gleefully answer::

"If the woman is the Church, then who is the seed of the woman?"

The predominately Gentile believers with some Jewish believers will flee into their wilderness during the first 1260 days of the 7 year tribulation where they will learn through the corporate 144,000 manchild through that first 3 1/2 years much like the first 12 disciples who spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus as they raised up seed as Jesus sent them out to preach:

Matthew 10:7-8  And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.  (8)  Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons: freely ye received, freely give.

Your next claim:

"We see the first fruits of this coming rapture in Rev 14. The 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel guarantee the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth."

Just as the 12 disciples were the first fruit of Jesus' with Him in the wilderness serving with Him during  His physical ministry while on earth there is a corporate body of the 144,000 "manchild" made up of both Jew and Gentile believers who are being prepared right now in their wilderness becoming undefiled from any previous leaven so they are ready to be the "they" that will nourish the larger body of the church called the corporate "woman" who will then flee into their wilderness when Jesus opens the first seal:  

Revelation 6:1-2  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come.  (2)  And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 14:1-4  And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.  (2)  And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:  (3)  and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.  (4)  These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.

Your next claim:

"He provides the example of the wheat and tares growing up together before the harvest, but he doesn't understand when that particular harvest occurs. Here is the harvest that occurs just before the wrath of God begins. We see in this harvest that the righteous are gathered 1st into the clouds."

Jesus is only coming ONE time in the clouds for ONE olive tree made up of both Jew and Gentile believers as ONE body in Christ as Rob clearly proves in this link:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

There are so many proofs in that link that I can not copy and paste them all here so I leave up to the believer who is noble to do his required study of this link which is 80% scripture by volume:

Acts 17:11  Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of the mind, examining the Scriptures daily, whether these things were so.

Your thesis that there are two coming in the clouds is not supported by one verse in the entire bible where Jesus comes for a second harvest to take up into heaven!

Your next claim:

"He claims that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals onto the ark, but the Word says they were loaded in one day. It floods 7 days after they are on the ark. We can see in this verse that Noah, his family, and ALL THE ANIMALS entered the ark on the selfsame day. It did not take 7 days for Noah to enter the ark. It all happened in one day, 7 days before the flood. Even as the Church will be in heaven during the 7 year tribulation, 7 years before wrath."

You jerked verses 9, 10, 13, & 14 out of context which makes it appear as though Noah with 7 other family members loaded an ark with all the flesh of the earth along with all the food for all those flesh as well as themselves in ONE day to sustain all that flesh for one year. Let's examine the entire context to get the true story! Noah was told in chapter 6 to build the ark and begin loading it with enough food for every living thing of all flesh and to also begin loading that ark as God brought the many types of flesh:

Genesis 6:18-22  But I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.  (19)  And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.  (20)  Of the birds after their kind, and of the cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.  (21)  And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.  (22)  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

In verse 1 thru 5, God clearly tells Noah to begin moving into the finished ark seven days BEFORE the flood begins and Noah began immediately obeying!:

Genesis 7:1-5  And Jehovah said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.  (2)  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee seven and seven, the male and his female; and of the beasts that are not clean two, the male and his female:  (3)  of the birds also of the heavens, seven and seven, male and female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.  (4)  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground. (16)  And Noah did according unto all that Jehovah commanded him

This began on the the first of seven days and is clearly proven by verse 10 that this took place for seven days and then the flood waters came:

Genesis 7:6-10  And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.  (7)  And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.  (8)  Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creepeth upon the ground,  (9)  there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noah.  (10)  And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 

For you to assert that Noah sat around for seven days before the flood waters came after God told Noah to begin loading the ark seven days before and then on the very day the flood waters came Noah jumps out of bed that morning and tried to load thousands upon thousands of species of animals up as high as three stories into their individual places is ignorance at its highest level:

Genesis 6:16  A light shalt thou make to the ark, and to a cubit shalt thou finish it upward; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

God was simply repeating Himself in Genesis 7:11-16 as He often does with more detail from what He first said to Noah in chapter 6:

Genesis 7:11-16  In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.  (12)  And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.  (13)  In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;  (14)  they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.  (15)  And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life.  (16)  And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded him: and Jehovah shut him in.

Your next claim:

"He claims there is a one year wrath of God after the 7 years. There is a 3 1/2 year wrath of God after the 7 years. The prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth happens just before the wrath of God. We can see in Daniel 12 the great tributation and a rapture. How many day left, after this event? Time, times and half a time, 3 1/2 years."

You again chose to leave out an important part of the context by only posting two verses of Daniel 12 rather than the context that reveals the unleavened truth:

Daniel 12:6-10  And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?  (7)  And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.  (8)  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things?  (9)  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.  (10)  Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand. 

The angel speaking to Daniel is clearly answering Daniel's questions in verse 8 about when the time, times, and a half take place by telling him it is the 1290 days when the the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate is set up:

Daniel 12:11-12  And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days. 

We know the abomination of desolation begins at the midpoint of the 70th week as was told Daniel three chapters earlier:

Daniel 9:27  And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

Those who make it 45 days past the 1290 days of the last half of the tribulation will make it to the 1335th day which is when the rapture of those that are alive and remain who only see with their eyes the reward of the wicked:

Daniel 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

1 Thessalonians 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

Psalms 91:8  Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold, And see the reward of the wicked.

Your next claim which is your conclusion:

"We are told we can escape ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS. The Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass. What things? Nations rising against nations, famines, pestilence and the signs from heaven. So the Church can escape all the things that will come to pass in the last days. They will be raptured in the pretribulation rapture. The 24 elders have received their white robes and crowns in Revelation 4. The nation of Israel remains on the earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath. Two raptures, one pretrib for the Church (Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood), one prewrath for the tribes across the earth (the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came)."

You actually totally contradict yourself in your conclusions! You say that God can protect the nation of Israel in a place of protection from His wrath but He has to take the church to heaven to protect them from the same wrath!

There is only ONE rapture/resurrection of the just as Rob so completely proves in this link and I highly recommend you reread it so you can adjust your theology to promote truth:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/ 

[iamlamad]

On 8/24/2020 at 7:50 PM, abcdef said:

This was true when Jesus said it, but after that Jesus received ALL power in heaven and earth.

So He knew when the "day" was before He ascended, or He didn't receive ALL power, He would have received only some power.

-----

The "day" he spoke of in Matt 24 was the day of the Lord against Jerusalem in 67-70 AD.

The reason that no one knew was that it wasn't revealed exactly when that day would be.

Israel could have accepted the Pentecost gospel kingdom, they had to have the opportunity to accept it.

But even though it was prophecy that they wouldn't, they had to have the chance.

-------

Jesus gave us the Revelation that tells us when He is coming for the kingdom.

-------

So if some one tells you that Jesus still, at this time, doesn't know the "day,"

It is a complete falsehood and should be challenged as a false teaching.

(Of course they almost always say, "Just take my word for it.")

 

That "power" is really Executive Authority by the Greek word behind it. Just because one has authority does not mean He knows everything. I guarantee, the CEO of GM does not know when John Doe comes to work. He don't even care: Others take care of those things. I believe Jesus trusts the timing to the Father and will patiently wait for the Father to say GO!

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

That "power" is really Executive Authority by the Greek word behind it. Just because one has authority does not mean He knows everything. I guarantee, the CEO of GM does not know when John Doe comes to work. He don't even care: Others take care of those things. I believe Jesus trusts the timing to the Father and will patiently wait for the Father to say GO!

Knowledge is power.

[The Light]

9 hours ago, Moby said:

Thank you Light for responding and actually reading the entire post!

Let's examine each of your claims against scripture to see if they are true starting with this one:

 

"And yet we know that the Jews are currently blinded and cannot see that Jesus is the Messiah."

 

Paul clearly proves in Romans chapter 11 that not all the Jews were blinded but a portion in every generation from the days of Elijah "even so then at Paul's present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace":

 

Romans 11:1-7  I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  (2)  God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:  (3)  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.  (4)  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have left for myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to Baal.  (5)  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.  (6)  But if it is by grace, it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.  (7)  What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened:

 

Paul then says he is purposely trying to provoke the Jews through jealousy to save some again proving there are some going to be saved as the Jews over the last 2000 have been reading Paul's NT letters:

Romans 11:11-14  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.

Only some of the branches are being broken off during any given generation past, Paul's present time and in the the future through our present time so some Gentile believers through the years have been and will be grafted in including the soon coming time of 7 years of tribulation:

Romans 11:17-19  But if some of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive, wast grafted in among them, and didst become partaker with them of the root of the fatness of the olive tree;  (18)  glory not over the branches: but if thou gloriest, it is not thou that bearest the root, but the root thee.  (19)  Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

This passage is proving there will be some from every generation who "continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again":

Romans 11:23-24  And they also, if they continue not in their unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.  (24)  For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Since I believe that there will be Jews from every generation who continue not in their unbelief, you are proving nothing. Additionally, that does not prove that part of Israel will not have it's blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Point is, you have proven nothing and if you are disagreeing with the Word of God, you are wrong. The scripture speaks for itself.

Rev 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

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Your next claim:

"When will part of Israel see that Jesus is the Messiah? When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in."

Paul then finishes his point that the ONE olive tree will be completed by the end of the ages when PART of natural Israel branches from both the OT and NT were and are hardened and broken off so the fullness of all the believing Gentiles are grafted into the ONE olive tree called all Israel:

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

You have danced around and are standing in the same spot.

The point is that part of Israel will have it's blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That event will happen when the SECRET pretribulation rapture occurs.

 

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Your next claim:

"That event will occur when the Church is raptured pre trib."

Paul says the ONE olive tree will only be made up of the ELECT through grace so this ONE olive tree will not be complete until the end of the 7 years of tribulation as this scripture proves:

Matthew 24:21-24 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be. (22) And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. (23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is the Christ, or, Here; believe it not. (24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

 

Paul says one olive tree but does he say when the branches will be regrafted? We know that part of Israel will not have it's blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So, you are proving nothing as the scripture speaks for itself.

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Your next claim:

"The woman in Rev 12 are those in the nation of Israel that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up."

Please notice that the soon to be manchild will be given the power "to rule all the nations with a rod of iron":

Revelation 12:5-6  And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. 

This same power was promised to the overcomers of the 7 predominately Gentile churches:

Revelation 2:26-29  And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:  (27)  and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to shivers; as I also have received of my Father:  (28)  and I will give him the morning star.  (29)  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

When I read this, I thought, how strange. Why did he respond with manchild and yet there was no corporate manchild? This is odd. Then I read your response below and saw corporate. Could you educate me. Where does this corporate manchild nonsense come from. Is this from SDA? Or some other church organization.

The woman that flees to a place of protection is those in the nation of Israel. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church. They are in heaven before any seals are even opened. Again, you have proven nothing.

 

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Your next claim:

"The woman is Israel and the seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth."

The very next verse in Revelation chapter 12 refers to the manchild as as "they" which are predominately Gentile believers who are already in their wilderness ready to nourish the woman who will also be predominately Gentile believers with some Jewish believers as Paul proved in Romans chapter 11:

Revelation 12:6  And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The word "they" in verse 6 clearly proves this manchild is a corporate body of those already in the wilderness as both John the Baptist and Jesus were in their wilderness and desert most of their ministry where they taught:

 

The word THEY does not prove a corporate manchild. This is just something that someone taught because they do not understand the scriptures. They have taught this stuff and passed it through a church organization.

If you want to see who the woman that flees is, you need only look to the Word. The woman is those in Judea.

Matt 24

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

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Your next claim:

"The twelve tribes across the earth have their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. They are the ones that are raptured pre wrath."

If there is only ONE olive tree made up of both Jew and Gentile believers who are the ELECT from the times of Genesis until today as Paul proved in Romans chapter 11 then the Jewish and Gentile believers as ONE olive tree will be raptured/resurrected together as ONE!:

Galatians 3:26-29  For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.  (27)  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.  (28)  There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.  (29)  And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Again, yes there is one olive tree. The question is when will the Jews be regrafted onto that olive tree. Part of Israel will have it's blindness remove when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That will occur when the SECRET pretribulation rapture happens.

 

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Your next claim which is posed as a question I will gleefully answer::

"If the woman is the Church, then who is the seed of the woman?"

The predominately Gentile believers with some Jewish believers will flee into their wilderness during the first 1260 days of the 7 year tribulation where they will learn through the corporate 144,000 manchild through that first 3 1/2 years much like the first 12 disciples who spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus as they raised up seed as Jesus sent them out to preach:

As I've shown in the Word of God. It is those in Judea that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up. There is no corporate manchild as the Church is already in heaven before the 70th week of Daniel begins. The 144,000 are 12,000 virgins from the 12 tribes of Israel. We don't need to use our imagination to guess who the 144,000. The word clearly tells us.

Rev 7

³ Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

⁴ And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

⁵ Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

⁶ Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

⁷ Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

⁸ Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, just like it says. They are virgins, just like it says. I'm not sure why you would not accept what the Word of God says, and instead follow a teaching from someone else.

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Your next claim:

"We see the first fruits of this coming rapture in Rev 14. The 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel guarantee the harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth."

Just as the 12 disciples were the first fruit of Jesus' with Him in the wilderness serving with Him during  His physical ministry while on earth there is a corporate body of the 144,000 "manchild" made up of both Jew and Gentile believers who are being prepared right now in their wilderness becoming undefiled from any previous leaven so they are ready to be the "they" that will nourish the larger body of the church called the corporate "woman" who will then flee into their wilderness when Jesus opens the first seal:  

Revelation 6:1-2  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, Come.  (2)  And I saw, and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon had a bow; and there was given unto him a crown: and he came forth conquering, and to conquer.

The 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel that are redeemed from the earth. As first fruits they are presented before the throne of God, and GUARANTEE a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth.

Rev 14

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Additionally, they do not flee all over the earth at the 1st seal. They are those that flee in Judea when the abomination of desolation is set up during the 5th seal. We don't need to imagine a corporate manchild, as we have the Word of God to tell us who the 144,000 are.

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Your next claim:

"He provides the example of the wheat and tares growing up together before the harvest, but he doesn't understand when that particular harvest occurs. Here is the harvest that occurs just before the wrath of God begins. We see in this harvest that the righteous are gathered 1st into the clouds."

Jesus is only coming ONE time in the clouds for ONE olive tree made up of both Jew and Gentile believers as ONE body in Christ as Rob clearly proves in this link:

If what you are saying is true, how is it that you claim that the tares are gathered first and thrown into the fire and Rev 14 show that the righteous are gathered 1st.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

We can clearly see that the righteous are gathered 1st in this coming of Jesus. So what you are saying is incorrect. You have done a lot of dancing around in your posts and have proven nothing. I don't really need to prove my point, as the scripture speaks for itself.

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Your thesis that there are two coming in the clouds is not supported by one verse in the entire bible where Jesus comes for a second harvest to take up into heaven!

Please. I could post multiple verses that He is coming more than once. One coming will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. One coming will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. The Word says there will be more than one coming.

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²³ And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

The Word doesn't say that they will desire to see the day of the son of man. The Word says they will desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS of the son of man.

 

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Your next claim:

"He claims that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals onto the ark, but the Word says they were loaded in one day. It floods 7 days after they are on the ark. We can see in this verse that Noah, his family, and ALL THE ANIMALS entered the ark on the selfsame day. It did not take 7 days for Noah to enter the ark. It all happened in one day, 7 days before the flood. Even as the Church will be in heaven during the 7 year tribulation, 7 years before wrath."

You jerked verses 9, 10, 13, & 14 out of context which makes it appear as though Noah with 7 other family members loaded an ark with all the flesh of the earth along with all the food for all those flesh as well as themselves in ONE day to sustain all that flesh for one year.

I have taken nothing out of context. I let the Word speak for itself. Noah, his family and all the animals loaded onto the ark on the selfsame day. That's what the Word says, period. They entered the ark on the selfsame day, ONE DAY.

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

 

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Let's examine the entire context to get the true story! Noah was told in chapter 6 to build the ark and begin loading it with enough food for every living thing of all flesh and to also begin loading that ark as God brought the many types of flesh:

Genesis 6:18-22  But I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.  (19)  And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.  (20)  Of the birds after their kind, and of the cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.  (21)  And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.  (22)  Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

In verse 1 thru 5, God clearly tells Noah to begin moving into the finished ark seven days BEFORE the flood begins and Noah began immediately obeying!:

Noah is on the ark with all the animals 7 days BEFORE the flood begins.

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

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Genesis 7:1-5  And Jehovah said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.  (2)  Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee seven and seven, the male and his female; and of the beasts that are not clean two, the male and his female:  (3)  of the birds also of the heavens, seven and seven, male and female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.  (4)  For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the ground. (16)  And Noah did according unto all that Jehovah commanded him

This began on the the first of seven days and is clearly proven by verse 10 that this took place for seven days and then the flood waters came:

Noah was command to enter the ark in verse one. He did so and on the selfsame day his family and all the animals boarded the ark. And it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth.

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

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Genesis 7:6-10  And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.  (7)  And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.  (8)  Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creepeth upon the ground,  (9)  there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, male and female, as God commanded Noah.  (10)  And it came to pass after the seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 

For you to assert that Noah sat around for seven days before the flood waters came after God told Noah to begin loading the ark seven days before and then on the very day the flood waters came Noah jumps out of bed that morning and tried to load thousands upon thousands of species of animals up as high as three stories into their individual places is ignorance at its highest level:

Oh no. You are misreading what I said. Let me quote it for you.

"4) He claims that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals onto the ark, but the Word says they were loaded in one day. It floods 7 days after they are on the ark.

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Genesis 6:16  A light shalt thou make to the ark, and to a cubit shalt thou finish it upward; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

God was simply repeating Himself in Genesis 7:11-16 as He often does with more detail from what He first said to Noah in chapter 6:

Genesis 7:11-16  In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.  (12)  And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.  (13)  In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;  (14)  they, and every beast after its kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after its kind, and every bird after its kind, every bird of every sort.  (15)  And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh wherein is the breath of life.  (16)  And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God commanded him: and Jehovah shut him in.

We finally get to agree. It's just another version with more details of the same story. Noah is on the ark 7 days before the flood, just like it says.

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Your next claim:

"He claims there is a one year wrath of God after the 7 years. There is a 3 1/2 year wrath of God after the 7 years. The prewrath rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth happens just before the wrath of God. We can see in Daniel 12 the great tributation and a rapture. How many day left, after this event? Time, times and half a time, 3 1/2 years."

You again chose to leave out an important part of the context by only posting two verses of Daniel 12 rather than the context that reveals the unleavened truth:

Daniel 12:6-10  And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?  (7)  And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when they have made an end of breaking in pieces the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.  (8)  And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my lord, what shall be the issue of these things?  (9)  And he said, Go thy way, Daniel; for the words are shut up and sealed till the time of the end.  (10)  Many shall purify themselves, and make themselves white, and be refined; but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand; but they that are wise shall understand. 

The angel speaking to Daniel is clearly answering Daniel's questions in verse 8 about when the time, times, and a half take place by telling him it is the 1290 days when the the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate is set up:

Daniel 12:11-12  And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days. 

I left out nothing. You are misreading the verse about the daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation. It says " And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

I'm amazed at how so many have trouble reading what is there. I've got to go ice cream truck on you. "and from the time that the ice cream truck arrives and the ice cold Klondike bar hits your lips there shall be 15 minutes and 40 seconds. So do you get the ice cream in your mouth when the ice cream truck arrives or is it 15 minutes and 40 seconds after the truck arrives.

Try just reading what it says and quit making it say something that isn't there.

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We know the abomination of desolation begins at the midpoint of the 70th week as was told Daniel three chapters earlier:

Daniel 9:27  And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.

No, we don't know that the abomination of desolation begins at the midpoint of the week. That's just something that is imagined and is not scriptural fact. The Word says "in the midst of the week"

If you started a new job and came to the person that does payroll on Saturday and said I worked hard this week and would like to get paid. If the person said, we do payroll after you have worked so that we can pay you by the hours that your work. We will get it figured out and will pay you in the midst of the week. Does that mean they will pay you on the middle of the week on Wednesday or does that mean they could pay you on Tuesday or Thursday.

So many errors are made in understanding scripture by concluding things that are not there. The scripture says, midst of the week, not the exact middle of the week.

 

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Those who make it 45 days past the 1290 days of the last half of the tribulation will make it to the 1335th day which is when the rapture of those that are alive and remain who only see with their eyes the reward of the wicked:

Daniel 12:12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Yes there will be a rapture for those that make it to the 1335th day, but it will not be the rapture of the Church, it will be the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. The 144,000 first fruits is a guarantee of this harvest.

FYI. The daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185. The abomination of desolation occurs toward the end of the week 1290 days later on day 2475. The great tribulation lasts 45 days.

 

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Your next claim which is your conclusion:

"We are told we can escape ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHALL COME TO PASS. The Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass. What things? Nations rising against nations, famines, pestilence and the signs from heaven. So the Church can escape all the things that will come to pass in the last days. They will be raptured in the pretribulation rapture. The 24 elders have received their white robes and crowns in Revelation 4. The nation of Israel remains on the earth during the wrath of God in a place of protection. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath. Two raptures, one pretrib for the Church (Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood), one prewrath for the tribes across the earth (the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came)."

You actually totally contradict yourself in your conclusions!

No, it is an error in what you think I have said, that I did not say.

Additionally, I don't think you addressed the fact that the Word says that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS.

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You say that God can protect the nation of Israel in a place of protection from His wrath but He has to take the church to heaven to protect them from the same wrath!

God says that those in Judea should flee when they see the abomination of desolation is set up. No questions there. Then you say that I have said that HE has to take the Church to heaven to protect them from wrath. No, I am not saying that He has to take the Church to heaven to protect them. I'm saying that the Word says that HE WILL TAKE THEM TO HEAVEN and protect them. Big difference. I just read what it says and let the Word speak for itself.

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There is only ONE rapture/resurrection of the just as Rob so completely proves in this link and I highly recommend you reread it so you can adjust your theology to promote truth:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/ 

Maybe you should study the Jewish Feasts so you will gain understanding of what is to come. There will be more than one coming of Jesus. There will be the SECRET coming of Jesus at the trump of God for His bride and there will be a coming of Jesus when all eyes will see Him, at the last trump.

Edited August 27, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

8 hours ago, The Light said:

Since I believe that there will be Jews from every generation who continue not in their unbelief, you are proving nothing. Additionally, that does not prove that part of Israel will not have it's blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Point is, you have proven nothing and if you are disagreeing with the Word of God, you are wrong. The scripture speaks for itself.

Rev 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You have danced around and are standing in the same spot.

The point is that part of Israel will have it's blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That event will happen when the SECRET pretribulation rapture occurs.

 

Paul says one olive tree but does he say when the branches will be regrafted? We know that part of Israel will not have it's blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So, you are proving nothing as the scripture speaks for itself.

When I read this, I thought, how strange. Why did he respond with manchild and yet there was no corporate manchild? This is odd. Then I read your response below and saw corporate. Could you educate me. Where does this corporate manchild nonsense come from. Is this from SDA? Or some other church organization.

The woman that flees to a place of protection is those in the nation of Israel. Has nothing whatsoever to do with the Church. They are in heaven before any seals are even opened. Again, you have proven nothing.

 

The word THEY does not prove a corporate manchild. This is just something that someone taught because they do not understand the scriptures. They have taught this stuff and passed it through a church organization.

If you want to see who the woman that flees is, you need only look to the Word. The woman is those in Judea.

Matt 24

¹⁵ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

¹⁶ Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

¹⁷ Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

¹⁸ Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

¹⁹ And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

²⁰ But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

²¹ For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Again, yes there is one olive tree. The question is when will the Jews be regrafted onto that olive tree. Part of Israel will have it's blindness remove when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. That will occur when the SECRET pretribulation rapture happens.

 

As I've shown in the Word of God. It is those in Judea that flee when the abomination of desolation is set up. There is no corporate manchild as the Church is already in heaven before the 70th week of Daniel begins. The 144,000 are 12,000 virgins from the 12 tribes of Israel. We don't need to use our imagination to guess who the 144,000. The word clearly tells us.

Rev 7

³ Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

⁴ And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

⁵ Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

⁶ Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

⁷ Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

⁸ Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

Rev 14

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel, just like it says. They are virgins, just like it says. I'm not sure why you would not accept what the Word of God says, and instead follow a teaching from someone else.

The 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe of Israel that are redeemed from the earth. As first fruits they are presented before the throne of God, and GUARANTEE a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth.

Rev 14

² And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Additionally, they do not flee all over the earth at the 1st seal. They are those that flee in Judea when the abomination of desolation is set up during the 5th seal. We don't need to imagine a corporate manchild, as we have the Word of God to tell us who the 144,000 are.

If what you are saying is true, how is it that you claim that the tares are gathered first and thrown into the fire and Rev 14 show that the righteous are gathered 1st.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

We can clearly see that the righteous are gathered 1st in this coming of Jesus. So what you are saying is incorrect. You have done a lot of dancing around in your posts and have proven nothing. I don't really need to prove my point, as the scripture speaks for itself.

Please. I could post multiple verses that He is coming more than once. One coming will be like the days of Noah where Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood. One coming will be like the days of Lot, where the very day Lot left Sodom, destruction came. The Word says there will be more than one coming.

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

²³ And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

²⁴ For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

The Word doesn't say that they will desire to see the day of the son of man. The Word says they will desire to see ONE OF THE DAYS of the son of man.

 

I have taken nothing out of context. I let the Word speak for itself. Noah, his family and all the animals loaded onto the ark on the selfsame day. That's what the Word says, period. They entered the ark on the selfsame day, ONE DAY.

Gen 7

¹³ In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

¹⁴ They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

 

Noah is on the ark with all the animals 7 days BEFORE the flood begins.

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Noah was command to enter the ark in verse one. He did so and on the selfsame day his family and all the animals boarded the ark. And it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth.

Gen 7

⁹ There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

¹⁰ And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Oh no. You are misreading what I said. Let me quote it for you.

"4) He claims that Noah spent 7 days loading the animals onto the ark, but the Word says they were loaded in one day. It floods 7 days after they are on the ark.

We finally get to agree. It's just another version with more details of the same story. Noah is on the ark 7 days before the flood, just like it says.

I left out nothing. You are misreading the verse about the daily sacrifice and the abomination of desolation. It says " And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

I'm amazed at how so many have trouble reading what is there. I've got to go ice cream truck on you. "and from the time that the ice cream truck arrives and the ice cold Klondike bar hits your lips there shall be 15 minutes and 40 seconds. So do you get the ice cream in your mouth when the ice cream truck arrives or is it 15 minutes and 40 seconds after the truck arrives.

Try just reading what it says and quit making it say something that isn't there.

No, we don't know that the abomination of desolation begins at the midpoint of the week. That's just something that is imagined and is not scriptural fact. The Word says "in the midst of the week"

If you started a new job and came to the person that does payroll on Saturday and said I worked hard this week and would like to get paid. If the person said, we do payroll after you have worked so that we can pay you by the hours that your work. We will get it figured out and will pay you in the midst of the week. Does that mean they will pay you on the middle of the week on Wednesday or does that mean they could pay you on Tuesday or Thursday.

So many errors are made in understanding scripture by concluding things that are not there. The scripture says, midst of the week, not the exact middle of the week.

 

Yes there will be a rapture for those that make it to the 1335th day, but it will not be the rapture of the Church, it will be the rapture of the 12 tribes across the earth. The 144,000 first fruits is a guarantee of this harvest.

FYI. The daily sacrifice is taken away on day 1185. The abomination of desolation occurs toward the end of the week 1290 days later on day 2475. The great tribulation lasts 45 days.

 

No, it is an error in what you think I have said, that I did not say.

Additionally, I don't think you addressed the fact that the Word says that we can escape ALL THESE THINGS.

God says that those in Judea should flee when they see the abomination of desolation is set up. No questions there. Then you say that I have said that HE has to take the Church to heaven to protect them from wrath. No, I am not saying that He has to take the Church to heaven to protect them. I'm saying that the Word says that HE WILL TAKE THEM TO HEAVEN and protect them. Big difference. I just read what it says and let the Word speak for itself.

Maybe you should study the Jewish Feasts so you will gain understanding of what is to come. There will be more than one coming of Jesus. There will be the SECRET coming of Jesus at the trump of God for His bride and there will be a coming of Jesus when all eyes will see Him, at the last trump.

Here I will let the scriptures prove to you that there is NO secret pretrib rapture nor are there two raptures as this section of Rob's link proves:

All a Christian has to do is study every NT passage where Jesus is coming in the clouds to prove that the ONLY rapture/resurrection is after the tribulation:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven(those raptured) to the other(those resurrected).

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth(those raptured) to the uttermost part of heaven(those resurrected).

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (10) And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold two men stood by them in white apparel; (11) who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; (17) then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 14:14-16 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Those passages above in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are part of the Olivet discourse where Jesus clearly proves He is coming only once in the clouds with angels and the sound of a trumpet AFTER the tribulation to receive the elect as one body of saints in Christ.

So Paul’s recording of this event can only happen after the tribulation and the sun is darkened:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The fact that every eye of all the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds proves there is NO secret rapture:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Everyone of those passages are clearly proving that the ONE and ONLY time Jesus is coming in the clouds to harvest the saints from the earth is AFTER the tribulation. Then at the end of the year of wrath Jesus doesn’t just come to the clouds but the whole way down to the earth on a white horse with His army of saints on white horses to make war:

Revelation 19:11-15 And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. (12) And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. (13) And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. (15) And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty.

[The Light]

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Here I will let the scriptures prove to you that there is NO secret pretrib rapture nor are there two raptures as this section of Rob's link proves:

Without even reading further, I know you cannot prove this.

3 hours ago, Moby said:

All a Christian has to do is study every NT passage where Jesus is coming in the clouds to prove that the ONLY rapture/resurrection is after the tribulation:

You will not be able to prove there is only one rapture and are you afraid of the OT?

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven(those raptured) to the other(those resurrected).

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.

Mark 13:24-27 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, (25) and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. (26) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth(those raptured) to the uttermost part of heaven(those resurrected).

Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28 And there shall be signs in sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh.

These passages in Matthew, Mark and Luke are referring to these passages in Revelation 6.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Then of course we see the great multitude in Rev 7

Rev 7

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

We also get a confirmation of those that come out of the great tribulation. So far, you have proved nothing.

Rev 7

¹³ And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

¹⁴ And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

 

 

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Acts 1:9-11 And when he had said these things, as they were looking, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (10) And while they were looking stedfastly into heaven as he went, behold two men stood by them in white apparel; (11) who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye looking into heaven? this Jesus, who was received up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye beheld him going into heaven.

Jesus will return and every eye will see Him. That does not prove that He will not return in secret.

3 hours ago, Moby said:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; (17) then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Exactly, THE LORD HIMSELF will descend from heaven. But what happens at the coming of Jesus in Matt 24. He will send His angels.

Matt 24

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Revelation 14:14-16 And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. (15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Right, in the clouds. But there is no evidence that this is the only coming prior to wrath.

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Those passages above in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are part of the Olivet discourse where Jesus clearly proves He is coming only once in the clouds with angels and the sound of a trumpet AFTER the tribulation to receive the elect as one body of saints in Christ.

Please produce any evidence that Jesus is ONLY COMING ONCE. You can't do it. However, I can produce plenty of evidence that He is coming more than once. I have already showed you that when He comes it will be like the days of Noah. Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood. We also know that when He comes, it will be like the days of Lot, where the very day lot left Sodom destruction came. Look the meaning of LIKEWISE ALSO. Then tell me He is not coming more than once.

Luke 17

²⁶ And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

²⁷ They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

²⁸ Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

²⁹ But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 

I also showed you where Jesus will come as lightning more than one day.

Luke 17

²² And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

3 hours ago, Moby said:

So Paul’s recording of this event can only happen after the tribulation and the sun is darkened:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Please show me specifically where it shows that this event occurs after the tribulation. Can not the dead in Christ arise at His coming before the tribulation? Jesus comes at the trump of God in the pretribulation rapture. He comes at the last trump after the tribulation. Two different comings.

3 hours ago, Moby said:

The fact that every eye of all the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming in the clouds proves there is NO secret rapture:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen.

Totally bad logic. The fact that every eye will see Him during the coming of Rev 6, which is the coming of Matt 24, which is also the coming of Jesus in Rev 14 does not prove that He will not come at a different time. In fact if you read Matt 24, He tells EXACTLY when He will come. He will come after the beginning of sorrows, and after the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars and immediately after the tribulation. He pinpoints His coming, and yet He tells you that He will come in an hour that you think not. Just let that sink in. There will be a pretribulation rapture and it will be a secret rapture. He will come when you think not.

Matt 24

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

3 hours ago, Moby said:

Everyone of those passages are clearly proving that the ONE and ONLY time Jesus is coming in the clouds to harvest the saints from the earth is AFTER the tribulation. Then at the end of the year of wrath Jesus doesn’t just come to the clouds but the whole way down to the earth on a white horse with His army of saints on white horses to make war:

 

You have produced no evidence that He is coming only once before wrath. I have produced evidence that He will return more than once. One time at the trump of God He will come in secret. LIKEWISE ALSO, One time at the last trump, every eye will see the coming of the Lord.

The scripture speaks for itself.

[Montana Marv]

Only, only, only God the Father knows the time of the rapture. He is the only one who knows when the Bridegroom will come.

All positions are just assumed.

The time is not given in Scripture. Jesus Christ the Son, the Word does not know.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[The Light]

24 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Only, only, only God the Father knows the time of the rapture. He is the only one who knows when the Bridegroom will come.

All positions are just assumed.

The time is not given in Scripture. Jesus Christ the Son, the Word does not know.

In Christ

Montana Marv

We are told to watch and be ready. If we can escape all the things that will come to pass, what are we supposed to be watching for?

We will know the times and seasons.

Edited August 27, 2020 by The Light