Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is inconsistent with a post-tribulation rapture

[John n Claudia]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I am going to answer this again: simplified version: The days of great tribulation will begin when the Beast and False prophet have created their image and mark, and then begin to FORCE people to bow to the image and receive their mark: on the forehead or on the right hand.  Is that simple enough? 

iamlamad,

I apologize for misunderstanding what you said.  Like I mentioned, I am trying to understand your theory and hopefully I will have gotten it correct this time.

 

Your definitions are:

The Great Tribulation starting when the Beast and False prophet have stated branding people with their mark.

The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16.  This includes all seven trumpets, all seven bowls, the entire story of the woman clothed in the sun and the entire story of the angel with authority.  Additionally all of the events of the Wrath of God will occur chronologically in the exact order in which they appear in the text.

 

Again, if I am incorrect in my definitions, please correct me.

Does the Great Tribulation have anything that marks its end?  Does it end when Jesus returns a third time with the church He raptured seven years earlier?

Is there any other event listed in Revelation that can give me a reference point so I can understand where this starts compared to the seals, trumpets or bowls?

 

I still would like to understand how you see Daniel 11 fitting into the end times.  For example:

Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end?

If so, is the king in Daniel 11:36 the man you call the Antichrist?

 

As one final question, can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet as described in Revelation 10:7?

[Shilohsfoal]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

No, sorry, but the Little Horn of Dan. 7 - the Beast of Rev. 13 - is probably alive somewhere, but has not done ANYTHING prophesied yet. His first move prophetically will be to confirm the covenant. But that will probably be done in secret. 

He, as the man of sin, with move to Jerusalem just days before the midpoint of the week - and the week had not started yet, and won't until the rapture comes first.

The little horn already rules Jerusalem. He will soon be given a host by his good friend the king of the north. 

 

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

 

They are just such good friends. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

iamlamad,

I apologize for misunderstanding what you said.  Like I mentioned, I am trying to understand your theory and hopefully I will have gotten it correct this time.

 

Your definitions are:

The Great Tribulation starting when the Beast and False prophet have stated branding people with their mark.

The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16.  This includes all seven trumpets, all seven bowls, the entire story of the woman clothed in the sun and the entire story of the angel with authority.  Additionally all of the events of the Wrath of God will occur chronologically in the exact order in which they appear in the text.

 

Again, if I am incorrect in my definitions, please correct me.

Does the Great Tribulation have anything that marks its end?  Does it end when Jesus returns a third time with the church He raptured seven years earlier?

Is there any other event listed in Revelation that can give me a reference point so I can understand where this starts compared to the seals, trumpets or bowls?

 

I still would like to understand how you see Daniel 11 fitting into the end times.  For example:

Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end?

If so, is the king in Daniel 11:36 the man you call the Antichrist?

 

As one final question, can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet as described in Revelation 10:7?

The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16.   This is not true! You cannot say it like that. Some of those events come with His wrath, but not everything.
God's wrath will begin at the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal and will continue to and through the battle of Armageddon.  (All the events listed do NOT come with His wrath. For example, God is NOT ANGRY with His son or His son's birth shown in Rev. 12:1-5. God is NOT ANGRY with the remnant that the Dragon goes after.)  In other words, all events from the 6th seal to chapter 20 are NOT His wrath. 

Does the Great Tribulation have anything that marks its end?   There is no exact words that end the days of GT. What I go on, is that Jesus said He would SHORTEN those days. I kept bugging God about that. I did not hear words (as I have previously) but I am convinced He told me: He will shorten those days by pouring out the vials. I could be wrong. But then, I could be right. However, we don't know WHEN God will pour out the vials. Again I THINK the first six are all poured out in ONE HOUR.  And that is when the days of GT will stop: those first six vials will simply make it impossible for people to hunt down other people and lop their head off. Don't misunderstand: the Beast's 42 months will continue on, but they will NOT be days of GT. They will be dark days of pain and misery, people sitting in darkness wondering with will happen next. God has turned out the lights! No sun or moon or stars visible.  

Does it end when Jesus returns  No, I think it ends when God pours out the vials.

Is there any other event listed in Revelation that can give me a reference point so I can understand where this starts compared to the seals, trumpets or bowls?  I think God's warning NOT to take the mark, in chapter 14, is as close as we can get.  I am sure He will not give his warning late, after some have already taken the mark. So I think "late in chapter 14) is when the days of GT will begin. At this point, all trumpets have sounded, but no vials poured out. 

Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end?  Why do YOU say 43 months when John tells us 42.  I can guess you don't understand the 1290 days.  I don't think Daniel was shown the abomination so did not cover in in chapter 11. But we can guess is is just before 12:1 and the time of trouble.  Yes, I think the person spoken of in the final verses of Dan. 11 are indeed the Beast of Rev. 13 and the Little Horn of Dan. 7.

what is the hidden or secret  Most of the world STILL DON'T KNOW that Satan is and has been the God of this world. That makes this a secret to them. But for those that read Revelation, we understand and know that the devil's time as the god of this world will END at the 7th trumpet. 

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

The little horn already rules Jerusalem. He will soon be given a host by his good friend the king of the north. 

 

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

 

They are just such good friends. 

This is myth. Why would you want to write myth? 

You may well be the only Christian who believes this.  
Do you have any PROOF from scripture for this statement? 

Just so you know, Dan. 8:12 is HISTORY about Antiochus Epiphanes. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by iamlamad

[Shilohsfoal]

13 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is myth. Why would you want to write myth? 

You may well be the only Christian who believes this.  
Do you have any PROOF from scripture for this statement? 

Just so you know, Dan. 8:12 is HISTORY about Antiochus Epiphanes. 

That's what the Pharisees taught. 

They were wrong. 

The king of the north and the little horn are friends because I know who they are. 

https://biblehub.com/kjv/daniel/8-12.htm

 

The host that shall be given to the little horn shall occupy Jerusalem for about 42 months. 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[John n Claudia]

47 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16.   This is not true! You cannot say it like that. Some of those events come with His wrath, but not everything.
God's wrath will begin at the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal and will continue to and through the battle of Armageddon.  (All the events listed do NOT come with His wrath. For example, God is NOT ANGRY with His son or His son's birth shown in Rev. 12:1-5. God is NOT ANGRY with the remnant that the Dragon goes after.)  In other words, all events from the 6th seal to chapter 20 are NOT His wrath. 

Again, I apologize for misunderstanding.  Having had this written this way for the previous 5 posts without any comment from you, I had thought we had a solid agreement on the definition.  I do not want to sound facetious about this, but it sounds like your definition is that the Wrath of God consists of a subset of the events between chapters 6 and 20, but only the events you want to include.  Also, you do not have a standard process by which you identify those events, but have to look at each event individually before you can determine if it is part of the Wrath of God or not.  Now, I am sure that this is not what you mean, so could you be more specific about this?

 

55 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Does the Great Tribulation have anything that marks its end?   There is no exact words that end the days of GT. What I go on, is that Jesus said He would SHORTEN those days.

Again, I apologize if I am putting words in your mouth, so please correct my misunderstandings.

The great tribulation starts when the beast and the false prophet start marking people, but it cannot be tied to any event listed in Revelation so we will not know what if any event will precede or follow the beginning of this marking.  It will end at some indeterminate point of time in the future but there is no known event in Revelation that precedes or follows this so we cannot know when it either starts or ends.

Once again, I am sure that I am misstating what you believe, so please correct me.  I really do want to understand your definitions of these.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Does it (the Great Tribulation) end when Jesus returns  No, I think it ends when God pours out the vials.

Do you think it ends, or do you know it ends?  It is hard for me to pin down a definition if you yourself do not have a clear understanding of things.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Is there any other event listed in Revelation that can give me a reference point so I can understand where this (the Great Tribulation) starts compared to the seals, trumpets or bowls?  I think God's warning NOT to take the mark, in chapter 14, is as close as we can get.  I am sure He will not give his warning late, after some have already taken the mark. So I think "late in chapter 14) is when the days of GT will begin. At this point, all trumpets have sounded, but no vials poured out. 

Based on this and the previous answer I quoted I am really confused, so please help me understand.  Since the warning occurs after the last trumpet and this is late, are you saying that the Great Tribulation starts a little bit before the last trumpet sounds so it starts just before the seventh trumpet?  Or is this more than a little late so the sixth trumpet also happens after the start of the Great Tribulation.

Also, I thought that the vials immediately followed the trumpets and there were no events between them.  Since your previous answer said that the Great Tribulation ends before the vials are poured out, does this mean that the Great tribulation consist only of the seventh trumpet? 

I want to make sure that I am not putting words in your mouth so please correct my misunderstandings.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end?  Why do YOU say 43 months when John tells us 42.  I can guess you don't understand the 1290 days.  I don't think Daniel was shown the abomination so did not cover in in chapter 11.

Daniel was shown the abomination because Jesus told us that he was shown it in Matthew 24:15.  Per Daniel, the Great Tribulation or the Time of Jacob's Trouble, lasts 42 months and the 1290 days is the time between the Antichrist standing in the temple declaring that he is God, which I believe is the Abomination, and the return of Jesus.  If you do not believe this is the Abomination, what does Daniel 11:36 describe to you?

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

what is the hidden or secret  Most of the world STILL DON'T KNOW that Satan is and has been the God of this world. That makes this a secret to them. But for those that read Revelation, we understand and know that the devil's time as the god of this world will END at the 7th trumpet. 

Um, wouldn't this be a secret of Satan and not a secret of God?  As you mentioned, throughout the Bible, God proclaims that Satan is the god of this world, so it is not a secret as far as God is concerned.

Besides, the quote is that this is a hidden or secret plan, not just a secret.   Is there anything that we are told is a secret or hidden plan of God?

[John n Claudia]

19 hours ago, abcdef said:

The seals and the trumpets form one timeline,

The seals begin in 37 AD, after Israel rejects the gospel kingdom, the 6th seal shows the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The seventh seal shows that all the requirements to open the scroll have been met.

The 1/2 hour of silence is the time between the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the giving of the Revelation in 85-96 AD ish. 

The trumpets are from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored and Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet.

abcdef,

I have to apologize.  I have been trying to understand your logic and why you you think the seals all occurred between 37 and 70 AD, but I cannot understand it at all.  I am glad that you have a theory that works for you, but I am going to have to bow out of this conversation.

[abcdef]

40 minutes ago, John n Claudia said:

abcdef,

I have to apologize.  I have been trying to understand your logic and why you you think the seals all occurred between 37 and 70 AD, but I cannot understand it at all.  I am glad that you have a theory that works for you, but I am going to have to bow out of this conversation.

As long as you believe that everything in the Revelation is future, you won't be able to resolve the conflicts and paradoxes.

-----

As long as you believe that the symbols themselves are the literal objects intended, instead of what the symbols represent, you won't get the meaning.

-----

Unless you abandon the centuries old futurism timeline that has the events of Revelation as a continual time line, you will not be able to understand the parallel time line passages.

[abcdef]

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

abcdef,

I have to apologize.  I have been trying to understand your logic and why you you think the seals all occurred between 37 and 70 AD, but I cannot understand it at all.  I am glad that you have a theory that works for you, but I am going to have to bow out of this conversation.

"Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you."

No symbolism there at all is there?

But when it comes to the Rev, the symbolic side is banned from consideration.

---------

The people of the world take the symbolism literally, because they cannot, cannot, understand the spiritual side of the scriptures. 

Some say, "If it seems right, if taken as literal, then that is all there is and it is illegal to consider it any other way."

But the Bible teaches otherwise, 1 Cor 2:14, "the things of the Spirit of God: ...... , are spiritually discerned."

So the ones who preach to take the things of God as literal,

Are teaching the opposite of what Paul said.

--------

The things that people are taught, Mormons, JW's, RCC, etc., they seem to accept, until they listen and consider that what they have been taught may not be totally correct.

If you are in an echo chamber of people who are just repeating what they have been taught, where everybody just agrees, it is hard to find the truth.

I submit to you that you will keep going in circles, without solid answers, unless you are able to break out of the pretrib echo chamber timeline.

------

You believe that some scriptures are parallel to other scriptures, like the 7 vials, go with it, take it one step further.

Edited August 27, 2020 by abcdef

[iamlamad]

22 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Again, I apologize for misunderstanding.  Having had this written this way for the previous 5 posts without any comment from you, I had thought we had a solid agreement on the definition.  I do not want to sound facetious about this, but it sounds like your definition is that the Wrath of God consists of a subset of the events between chapters 6 and 20, but only the events you want to include.  Also, you do not have a standard process by which you identify those events, but have to look at each event individually before you can determine if it is part of the Wrath of God or not.  Now, I am sure that this is not what you mean, so could you be more specific about this?

You seem insistent in tying God's wrath to chapters and verses and everything included. I don't do that because John does not do that. We can see where God's wrath begins: when He starts the DAY of His wrath, at the 6th seal - before the 70th week. Then we find He still has wrath in the vials, late in the 70th week. In other words, His enemies (people He loves) won't repent, so His wrath remains throughout the week. How then is His anger directed? When a trumpet is sounded, it is sounded with His wrath. The trumpets are judgments and judgment comes because of wrath. Judgments are a part of His wrath. But EVERYTHING from the 6th seal to chapter 16 is not judgments. I think you can tell the difference. 
I won't say it the way you want me to say it: But I have said it in different ways so you can understand my thinking. I will try another way. Revelation is written about EVENTS: one after another. At the 6th seal we see events: a great earthquake. They we read that the Day of His wrath has come. So we know from that point in time, God is angry. So as we read from the 6th seal, we get to chapter 7. Those events have NOTHING to do with God's wrath. But in chapter 8, we see the biginning of God "HURTING" the earth with trumpet judgments. They are judgments so they come with His wrath.

had this written this way for the previous 5 posts without any comment from you I don't think this is true. 

the Wrath of God consists of a subset of the events    No, my friend, His wrath are not "events!" Wrath is a feeling. Some events COME with wrath. In other words, His wrath is what instigates some events. Events come WITH His wrath, but events are NOT wrath, they are events. 

only the events you want to include.   Some events are associated with His wrath, and some are not. 

have to look at each event individually before you can determine if it is part of the Wrath of God or not.  You are beginning to get a basic idea - finally!

A good example is the sealing of the 144,000. Is God angry with them? NO! He is sealing them for protection during the trumpets which come WITH His wrath. 

I am sure that this is not what you mean  That is EXACTLY what I mean!