Jesus returning at the Battle of Armageddon is inconsistent with a post-tribulation rapture

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

iamlamad,

You did not directly reply to this post, but in a different post you stated:

GT:  the time period during which the Jews and the Church will be trampled by the Gentiles  No, it is the CITY that is trampled. I think when the man of sin enters (moves to) Jerusalem, He brings his Gentile armies with him. (He must first BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple there.)

 

I think I understand your definition of the Great Tribulation, however, it does lead to the question of when the Great Tribulation will happen.  From your previous posts, I understand that you hold a pre-tribulation rapture position.  Given that the Church is raptured before the sixth seal, and per your definition of the Great Tribulation above, the Church will be trampled during the Great Tribulation, the Great Tribulation should occur prior to the sixth seal being opened.  I am also assuming that the Great Tribulation will be mentioned somewhere in the Book of Revelation, so it must be part of the first five seals.  Can you clarify which of the seals correspond to the Great Tribulation?

 

Since you have not corrected my restatement of your definition of the Wrath of God, I am assuming that my restatement is accurate.  Given the huge difference in our definitions, I am sure that you can see why we have different understandings of what will happen during these last few years.  From now on, I will try to use your definition when I ask questions so I can understand how things fit together for you.

With this in mind, I would like to understand how you see Daniel 11 fitting into the end times.  For example:

Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end?

If so, what nation does the king in Daniel 11:36 rule?

 

As one final question, can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet as described in Revelation 10:7?

 

the Church will be trampled during the Great Tribulation  Again you write this: LOOK: READ: Read who or what is trampled:
Rev. 11:2 ...they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.  NIV: "They will trample on the holy city"

This does not say PEOPLE will be trampled, but rather a CITY: it just means they will be there: GENTILES in Jerusalem. 

Next, the church will not be here during the days of GT: they will be in heaven PRETRIB. The days of GT are a part of the 70th week and the entire week is for DANIEL'S people: Daniel 9:24: “Seventy ‘sevens’^[c] are decreed for your people and your holy city

NO PART Of the 70 weeks is for the church.  I see where you are headed. I will cut you off at the pass, so to speak...

Look what Jesus said:

Matthew 24:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
...!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

THEN WHEN? When they see the abomination of desolation. 

This is the days of GT Jesus spoke of. WHEN do they come? AFTER the abomination event. It will be the abomination that will divide the week and stop the daily sacrifices.  Notice Jesus' words: WHEN are those in judea to flee? When they SEE the abomination  - the very abomination that will divide the week.  WHERE in Revelation do we see this fleeing? Of course in chapter 12:6.  I have already proven over and over that chapters 11 - 13 are midpoint chapters because they each include countdowns from the midpoint to the end.  So the GT Jesus spoke of will come in the SECOND HALF of the week. Notice again How Jesus described it. 

great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now, a great question: is there ANOTHER "great tribulation" that is NOT as bad, NOT  greater than any other at any time? The answer is, YES, double yes; or TWICE.

Rev. 2
20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
21  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

Was God planning on keeping Jezebel alive for 2000 years so she could be cast into the days of GT Jesus talked about, greater than any other time? Or perhaps God was thinking He could create GT any time He choose to? Then there is this one:

Rev. 7:

^{9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;  [So far sounds exactly like the church.]}

^{10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  [Still sounds exactly like the church.]}

 

^{13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?}

^{14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.}

^{So WHO IS the group, seen in heaven right after Paul said His rapture should be?  Ask a hundred people and probably you would get a 100 different answers.} 

^{In Revelation, John has not yet started the week, MUCH LESS arrive at the abomination. Then, this is just your "bare bones" GT. NO words about it being worse than any other. This group was seen in heaven over 3.5 years before the abomination . They cannot be the say "days of" GT.} 

 

^{There is more: some Greek expert told me those could not possibly be the raptured church, because in the Greek, they come out of the GT ONE BY ONE in the present tense: as in COMING out. These are they which are coming out of great tribulation.  It was like a mental 2 x 4: for I was SURE this group was the raptured church.  I went to sleep meditating on it, and woke up with the answer. This being was not talking about how they sudden got from earth to heaven; he was telling John how each one came to be IN THAT GROUP.}

^{Each one was at one time LOST in the world. But as each heard the gospel, and believed on Jesus, they came OUT of the world and into the body of Christ on earth, one by one and still coming. In other scriptures we are told that during the church age, "in the world you shall have tribulation." John said in Rev. 1, "I john in the tribulation." In other words, the church age according to John is "the tribulation."  Why then did God and John call this "every day variety" as "great" tribulation?  I will surely ask Him where I arrive there! I can only guess, for John does not explain. My guess is, the church is mega long - 2000 years. So Jesus called the church age "great tribulation" for its extended period of time.}  

 

Ellicott’s Commentary has this to say;

“They are those who come, not all at once, but gradually. The saints of God are continually passing into the unseen world, and taking their place among the spirits of just men made perfect.”

 

Gill’s Commentary has this to say:

“the great tribulation, out of which they came, is not to be restrained to any particular time of trouble, but includes all that has been, is, or shall be…”

The Pulpit Commentary puts it this way:

“The question arises What is ‘the great tribulation’ referred to? Probably all the tribulation which has been passed through by the redeemed, all that which pertained to the life through which they have passed.”

Alford’s Commentary said it this way:

 I would rather understand it of the whole sum of the trials of the saints of God, viewed by the Elder as now complete, and designated by this emphatic and general name…”

Benson’s commentary says,

“Yet these could not be all martyrs, for the martyrs could not be such a multitude as no man could number… All these may be said, more or less, to come out of great tribulation, of various kinds, wisely and graciously allotted by God to all his children...” (Emphasis added)

I agree with these commentaries. I am convinced this is NOT "those days" of GT Jesus spoke of. 

Now we have three different passages with the words, "great tribulation," and ONLY ONE tells us they will be days worse than any other time ever. It appears there are three different periods of time labeled "great tribulation." 

the Church will be trampled during the Great Tribulation, the Great Tribulation should occur prior to the sixth seal being opened. You are mistaken on the church being trampled, so your theory of when the Gt should occur is faulty also. The GT Jesus talked about is for the JEWS, not for the church. Did you not read in Dan. 12 the PURPOSE for the GT? Read:

7  Then I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river. He raised both his hands^[b] toward heaven and swore by Him who lives eternally that it would be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people is shattered, all these things will be completed.

Today the Jews trust in their IDF: Israeli Defense Forces. God is going to shatter the IDF. He is going to bring the Jews to their knees - to the place that if God does not act and RIGHT NOW, their hope would be gone forever. He wants them to trust in HIM, not their IDF!  So the very PURPOSE of the days of GT is for the JEWS. It has nothing to do with the church.  Next, the days of GT will come during God's wrath, so we won't be here. 

I think verse 36 in Daniel 11 is the turning point from History (Antiochus) to the Beast of Rev. 13 (the Little horn of Dan. 7) All we know is that He will also be called the man of sin. 

can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet   I think it is obvious - no longer a secret since we know what happens. The Kingdoms of the world have been Satan's since the days of Adam. He, Satan, USURPED Adam's great authority and dominion, and became "the god of this world."  However, at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms are TAKEN from Satan and given back to Jesus. WHY THEN?  I think Adam was given a 6000 year lease. AT the 7th trumpet, Adam's lease RUNS OUT! Suddenly Satan has NO MORE LEGAL HOLD to earth. Suddenly he is an ILLEGAL impostor. He is cast down from the heavenly realms and perhaps stripped of his wings. Jesus becomes the GOD of this planet! 

Ancient Jewish Sages wrote, maybe before the days of Moses, that since God created for 6 days, and the rested the 7th, the meaning is, man would rule the world for 6 thousand years, and GOD would rule the world for the 7th thousand years. Nothing else I can find anywhere from this ancient writing up to the time of Revelation makes it clear that God will rule for the 7th thousand years. 

[iamlamad]

50 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Jesus did not say that is the resurrection of the damnation. 

You need to stop adding to revelation. 

You also left off a very Important part for obvious reasons. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-15.htm

Only those whos names are not found written are cast into the land of fire. 

It doesn't say everyone like you've said. You should just let God be the judge and stop condemning yourself. 

NO ONE in hell now has their names written in the book of Life. Therefore, ALL OF HELL ends up in the lake of fire. 

Jesus explained the resurrection of the DEAD also: Will you believe HIM?

John 5:

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus clearly talks of TWO resurrections: a resurrection of LIFE and a resurrection of DAMNATION. 

We MUST go by what is written, not imagination. Some people imagine, because John mentions the book of life, and perhaps SOME in this resurrection just might not be a part of the damned. 

Again, there is only TWO resurrections: one for the righteous, the other for everyone else. 

[Shilohsfoal]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

NO ONE in hell now has their names written in the book of Life. Therefore, ALL OF HELL ends up in the lake of fire. 

Jesus explained the resurrection of the DEAD also: Will you believe HIM?

John 5:

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus clearly talks of TWO resurrections: a resurrection of LIFE and a resurrection of DAMNATION. 

We MUST go by what is written, not imagination. Some people imagine, because John mentions the book of life, and perhaps SOME in this resurrection just might not be a part of the damned. 

Again, there is only TWO resurrections: one for the righteous, the other for everyone else. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-4.htm

 

So how many people you want to resurrect and let them live in Jerusalem 20 billion people? 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[iamlamad]

32 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

https://biblehub.com/revelation/20-4.htm

 

So how many people you want to resurrect and let them live in Jerusalem 20 billion people? 

Do you still not know who those are on thrones? they are BOTH the Old Covenant saints risen, and the Church risen. That is a LOT of people!  Probably even more than 20 billion!

[Shilohsfoal]

17 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Do you still not know who those are on thrones? they are BOTH the Old Covenant saints risen, and the Church risen. That is a LOT of people!  Probably even more than 20 billion!

That's not what revelations says but since you are rewriting it you may as well through in some Buddhists and muslims for good measure. 

[abcdef]

6 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

abcdef,

If I understand this correctly, here are the definitions:

A "resurrection coming" is any time that Jesus came to earth and at least one person who had died physically was resurrected and received a glorified body.

There are only 2 resurrections into eternal glorified bodies, 33 AD and soon.

Since Jesus and the OT saints were the first fruits Eph 4:8, that means no one else could be resurrected in that way before He was, 33 AD. The OT saints who were shown at different times as returning to the land of the living such as Samuel or Lazarus, were not given glorified eternal bodies until they were resurrected with Jesus in 33 AD. The reason for this was that Jesus was to shed His blood for their sins and He had to be the first fruits. 

The second resurrection is at His coming for the kingdom/church, 1 Cor 15:23-28. This is the resurrection/rapture (resur/rapt) coming. The second coming for salvation. The last trumpet, in the parallel text just before the 7th vial.

that is all the resurrections that there are into glorified eternal bodies.

Neither of these show a singular resurrection of just one person.

Please see that Paul says in 1 Cor 15:23-28, that after this second resurrection, it is the end. Heaven and earth fly away, death is destroyed, and eternity begins Rev 20:14-15.

 

6 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

A "coming" is any time that Jesus came to Earth, but nobody who died physically was resurrected and received a glorified body.

Yes, except that I might add this, a coming does not mean that Jesus sets foot on earth. He came at the destruction of Jerusalem with Roman armies, and we meet Him in the air at the resur/rapt. In Ezek 38:4 it shows God himself bringing armies against Israel. His presence was there, bringing the armies, but God did not set foot on the earth to bring them, it was spirit. In the same way, Jesus brought the armies of Rome against Jerusalem in 67-70 AD.

Jesus does not return to set foot on this planet again.

He appears in the air for His kingdom at the last trumpet, the second resurrection, but then it is the end, heaven and earth fly away, death is destroyed, and eternity begins.

So Jesus is coming for the kingdom, but not returning to set foot on this planet.

His presence will be here, in the sky, but not on earth.

 

6 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

 

If this is correct, there are two "resurrection comings".  The first was when Jesus was resurrected 2000 years ago and the second will be when He comes to rapture His Church.  The resurrection for the Great White Throne judgement is not a "resurrection coming" even though some people who are resurrected at that time will receive a glorified body because Jesus does not come to the earth, but rather all the people who were resurrected at this time go to the throne room for judgement.

The GWT is a resurrection, it is the second resurrection where Jesus comes for the kingdom. Resur/rapt, last trumpet. 

In Rev 20, the first resurrection is Jesus in 33 AD, the second resurrection is the coming for the kingdom.

The mill period is the new covenant period that we are in at the present time.

-----

Understand, that if these are parallel time lines that we are dealing with, and there are only 2 resurrections,

Rev 20 has a time line based on the 2 resurrections, which is identical to 1 Cor 15:23-28,

Showing Jesus as the first resur. 33 AD and His coming for the kingdom at the second.

Many people have had the idea that the mill period is like the garden of Eden, JW's, but it is only showing the new Pentecost covenant time period of the present.

Jesus rules from the heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem.

 

6 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

It also means that when Jesus knocked Saul/Paul off his horse on the way to Damascus is an example of a coming because nobody was resurrected and received a glorified body.

 

Is this correct?

Yes.

[John n Claudia]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

it is the CITY that is trampled. I think when the man of sin enters (moves to) Jerusalem, He brings his Gentile armies with him. (He must first BE in Jerusalem to enter the temple there.)

iamlamad,

I apologize for misunderstanding what you said.  Like I mentioned, I am trying to understand your theory and hopefully I will have gotten it correct this time.

 

Your definitions are:

The Great Tribulation is the time starting when the Antichrist defeats the Jews and conquers Jerusalem and enters into a physical temple that the Jews have built.  It ends when Jesus returns a third time with the church He raptured seven years earlier.  This time period will last 1290 days, and is a subset of the Wrath of God.

The Wrath of God consists of all events listed in Revelation between chapters 6 and 20 that occur after the first instance of the word wrath in Revelation 6:16.  This includes all seven trumpets, all seven bowls, the entire story of the woman clothed in the sun and the entire story of the angel with authority.  Additionally all of the events of the Wrath of God will occur chronologically in the exact order in which they appear in the text.

 

Again, if i am incorrect in my definitions, please correct me.

Assuming that these definitions are correct, I would like to understand how you see Daniel 11 fitting into the end times.  For example:

Does Daniel 11:36 describe the Abomination that occurs 43 months before the end?

If so, is the king in Daniel 11:36 the man you call the Antichrist?

 

As one final question, can you tell me what is the hidden or secret plan of God that will be brought to completion with the sound of the seventh trumpet as described in Revelation 10:7?

Ok, so if I u

[abcdef]

 

7 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Why do you say that the planet is destroyed at the seventh vial?

First, because it is shown in Rev 15:8, that after the 7th vial, people will enter the temple.

This is a simple statement, but the implications are that Jesus has come for the kingdom at the second resur/rapt. at the     last trumpet, heaven and earth have flown away, death is destroyed, and eternity has begun.

----

Second, because the events of the 7th vial are centered on Jerusalem being destroyed in such a manner, that there will be no survivors and the area of Jerusalem would be pulverized.

For a parallel passages, it would be the stone striking the statue in Dan. 2.

And the fire from heaven of Rev 20.

 

7 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

 

When will the Millennial Kingdom occur?  This is the promise to the Jews that they will rule and reign on the earth for 1000 years.

The mill period is now, the new covenant/kingdom/church period. (1000 years is symbolic for the entire period, over 1900 years, the church/kingdom period)

It does not say that Jesus rules from earthly Jerusalem, that is an assumption.

The dragon Rev 20:2, is only bound that he cannot destroy Israel until they return from the gentile nations to restore Jerusalem. There will still be sin and death like always.

------

The face of Jesus, the face of God, in His glory, cannot be seen by men without dying Ex 33:20.

So if Jesus were to come to planet earth, in His glory, everyone would die.

The idea that He will reign in His glory on planet earth is misconceived.

[abcdef]

7 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

abcdef,

It is good to realize that there are multiple timelines.  Just as I was encouraged a while back, I would also like to encourage you to examine all of your assumptions when dealing with the Book of Revelation.  The first question I would like to ask you regarding this is:

Since there are multiple timelines, is there any reason to assume that the Seals, Trumpets and Vials form a single timeline or is it possible that these are three separate timelines?

The seals and the trumpets form one timeline,

The seals begin in 37 AD, after Israel rejects the gospel kingdom, the 6th seal shows the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The seventh seal shows that all the requirements to open the scroll have been met.

The 1/2 hour of silence is the time between the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the giving of the Revelation in 85-96 AD ish. 

The trumpets are from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored and Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet.

---

The time line of the 2 witnesses (2W's) is parallel to the seals/trumpets time line.

The temple and people of the old covenant 37 AD are judged for rejecting the gospel kingdom and are scattered after 70 AD.

They are restored to Jerusalem before the resur/rapt.

Then the 7th/last trumpet.

---

The vials are parallel to the trumpets (but not the seals).

They show the same events from different viewpoints.

The trumpets show the viewpoint, of the withdrawing of the blessings of God, on the flesh broken branches of Israel until they are restored to Jerusalem. (Not the planet,....Israel)

The 2W's show the same time line from the viewpoint that Israel is still loved and the elect because of the promises made to the fathers.

The vials show the 70 AD  until after the resur/rapt, from the viewpoint that God is against the beast.

 

7 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

.

I do think that we agree that chapters 18 and 19 regarding the angel with authority give another timeline that is parallel to the timeline of the vials.  In that case, would you agree that the sounds and events in 19:6 are somewhat similar to the sounds and events in 16:18 so these could be referring to the same event in different timelines, from different perspectives?

Chapter 19, where heaven is opened, is showing the victory by gospel preaching over the Roman Empire sea beast.

It does not say that Jesus returns to planet earth. It says that heaven is opened and Jesus and the resurrected OT saints are seen, but not that He returns to planet earth.

-----

The 7th vial is parallel to the fire from heaven in Rev 20,

And the stone striking in Daniel 2.

7 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

  If so, would you accept that 20:2 describes an event that will occur after the seventh vial, and this tells us that Satan will be chained up for 1000 years with the earth still hanging around after the seventh vial has been poured?

Satan was thrown down on the day of Pentecost when the kingdom came, when salvation came. Rev 12

In Rev 20 he is restrained only that He cannot return to heaven,

And that he cannot destroy Israel until they leave the gentile nations and restore Jerusalem, then he can surround Jerusalem and destroy them.

-----

Once the 7th vial ends, it ends that time line.

The chapters before the vials and the ones that follow the vials are showing different time lines with their own beginnings and endings.

 

7 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Part of the reason that I feel confident in my interpretation is that I have looked for places like this, drawing connections between timelines that give greater insight into the events described.

 

[John n Claudia]

7 hours ago, abcdef said:

The seals begin in 37 AD, after Israel rejects the gospel kingdom, the 6th seal shows the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The seventh seal shows that all the requirements to open the scroll have been met.

The 1/2 hour of silence is the time between the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the giving of the Revelation in 85-96 AD ish. 

The trumpets are from 70 AD until Jerusalem is restored and Jesus comes for the kingdom at the 7th/last trumpet.

abcdef,

This is interesting.  Have you identified the earthquakes that occurred with the sixth and seventh seal, when the sun turned black with the sixth seal or when the fires burned one third of the forest with the first trumpet?