Let's talk about the faith of Jesus Christ

[dhchristian]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1) I have already answered that question. You are now ignoring the answers already provided. That is a problem, and it's a problem common to those asserting this misbegotten position. When confronted with the flaws commonly contained within this position (which can be argued scripturally, logically, and in a unifying manner but was not done so here) the common response is a failure to accept personal responsibility for one's own errors, being accusatory instead, the defense of like-minded people even when they post unscripturally and in violation of reason and the tou. 

That's why. 

2) Because Peter's posting isn't brilliant, it isn't a brilliant assessment of scripture, and there isn't any proof his misbegotten views have pervaded the Church. He has ignored very legitimate content openly and repeatedly. The fact that a plethora of diverse believers have responded with cogent content alone shows this claim of pervasiveness is flawed at best and completely errant at worst. 

3) Because Peter has posted in a divisive body-of-Christ-dividing manner. The Bible calls those who unjustly divide the body "devils"! The word means accuser or slanderer and he is it. In every single op in which he and I have traded posts I have asked him about this specifically and in every single op in which we have traded posts he's ignored it. 

4) Because he is not practicing what he is preaching. 

That is why he should be oyveyyed by all, including those whose position he betrays. I have not expressed a single unkind word about the holiness sectarian view. Not one. If you think so then you are mistaken and should go back and re-read what I've posted and do so again and again until you 1) let go of the bias and 2) understand what's posted in its own right. 

If a Calvinist posts poorly I will stand right beside him/her as a Calvinist and as patiently, kindly, forbearingly, hopefully provide what correction I can and I will do so trusting the same Spirit that is at work in me is at work in him/her. 

That's why you should oyvey his posts. The fact that you haven't is a problem. The fact that you hold out two different standards is a problem. The fact that you don't know why is a problem. 

And now everyone reading these posts really knows what you're about. You're an ideologue, an ideologue with an allegiance to holiness sectarianism that is greater than that to Christ, his word, and his body. The evidence in these posts proves it and the next words I read are likely to be ad hominem, further confirming what I have just posted above. 

 

 

A great deal of patience, kindness, forbearance, hope, and trust was extended Peter in this op and he crapped on it. There isn't any reason we could not have discussed the matters broached here but he didn't, even after being asked to do so. You think "oy vey" is a cogent response. It is not. A number of very real and valid concerns have been brought to bear on this op, such as the fact the nine verses quoted in this op were proof-texted (always an error that should never be practiced if holiness is the goal), and the fact the nine verses must be read as explained by the rest of scripture in its entirety but this too was entirely ignored AND according to Peter in his own words it was ignored out of fear. And you think "oy vey" is a cogent response. 

It is not. 

 

 

Scripture directs us to overlook offenses. Much of what Peter has posted since his coming in August has been overlooked. We've practiced scripture, we've practiced the faith of Christ and been ignored and judged for that obedience. Scripture directs us to bring more serious offences to the offender and we have done that too, only to be ignored and judged. We have practiced the faith of Christ as Christ taught it and been ignored and judged. Scripture directs us to take the matter to others as witnesses and we have done that too, with a plethora of fellows believers bringing very legitimate concerns to bear on they misguided content and practice. We practiced the faith of Christ and got ignored and oyveyyed for doing so. 

 

There is nothing holy about it. It is instead quite disobedient and thereby unholy. There isn't a single reason why the concerns I, David, and other broached should be ignored or why we should be vilified for pointing out areas warranting change. 

That is why you should express dismay consistently, including those who share your theology - because you want him as a fellow member of Christ's body to post as impeccably as he can and he is not doing so. 

Remember: you asked.

“It is easier to fool the people, than to convince them they have been fooled." Mark Twain.

 

As I wrote earlier on here, those who are fully immersed in the humanistic form of Christianity trying to convince them that their assumptions are off is like trying to convince an evolutionist that their assumptions are off. Self deception is the hardest deception to recognize and overcome, because at its heart is a lie you see as the truth. 

As for unity there will be both a false unity and a true unity of the Spirit. The false unity is built on ecumenism and tolerance, but the true Unity is Built on the fulness of Christ. Where he is the head , the all in all of the church, which is what your humanistic Christianity cannot grasp because its faith is in the human carnal mind and human mental capacities. All one has to do is carefully read the first 3 chapters of 1 corinthians to see this, But yet humanism is incapable of  dealing with the deception of the mind. 

You sit here and lump me into a camp (holiness) when you do not know me, others here have accused me of legalism, others of preaching lawlessness, others of being a Calvinist, others of being an Arminian, I have been accused of being a catholic for my positions on who are saints, I am accused of being charismatic by fundamentalist and a fundamentalist by charismatics, I am accused of being a cessationist by some and a continuist by others, But one who is In Christ is all of these things for they are living in the fulness of Christ.

It is you who are "labelling" people here, putting them into the box of your own understanding instead of seeing them as complex Human beings with diverse beliefs. It is you who are dividing them in your mind into rational units that you can comprehend them with your carnal mind. Is this an ad hominem response Or an accurate one. 

To the one who is self deceived they will see any rebuke, correction or otherwise as an ad hominem attack against themselves, Or as the SJW's do "cry victim" even when they are in the wrong. 

what @Peterlag has conveyed in this post Is so much bigger than what you are able to see, because you like many in Christendom are being self deceived by the lies of Humanism, and it is this humanism that forms other parts of your understanding such as your dominionist/ kingdom now eschatology. This problem of Humanism in the church is far bigger than just you, and pervades much of the institutional church of our day, and for this reason God is raising up a new Priesthood as he did in Israel, a Holy remnant, a silent revival, a treasured possession of his while the old goes on into the harlotry of humanism.... This has all been predicted in Prophecy and is coming to pass right now.

The question for any here who read this is where does your faith stand? Is it based in humanism or based in the character and authority of Jesus Christ Who is faithful? Remember this is subtile, and the devil is known for the subtility of his deception.... Work out your faith with fear and trembling.

[dhchristian]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I have already answered that question. 

Short version:

1) Because Peter's posting isn't brilliant; it is deeply flawed.

2) Because Peter has posted in a divisive body-of-Christ-dividing manner and with openly dividing intent.

3) Because he is not practicing what he is preaching. 

4) Because the exegesis is poor and woefully lacking.

5) Because the reasoning is poor and woefully lacking. 

6) Because you want Peter to do better and be the best in Christ he can be. 

7) Because you should be consistent and not apply double standards (God hates unequal scales). 

8) Because as a consequence of the above the entire non-conversation proves to be unholy. I can find avoidant non-conversationalists and folks who irrationally abuse scripture and the body of Christ's members for the sake of self-aggrandizement any number of places. 

To me these are all ad hominem arguments against Peter. I Could say the same for anyone who is stuck in the error of humanism and self deception....

A.W. Tozer on self deception:

OF ALL FORMS OF DECEPTION, self-deception is the most deadly, and of all deceived persons the self-deceived are the least likely to discover the fraud.

The reason for this is simple. When a man is deceived by another he is deceived against his will. He is contending against an adversary and is temporarily the victim of the other's guile. Since he expects his foe to take advantage of him he is watchful and quick to suspect trickery. Under such circumstances it is possible to be deceived sometimes and for a short while, but because the victim is resisting he may break out of the trap and escape before too long.

With the self-deceived it is quite different. He is his own enemy and is working a fraud upon himself. He wants to believe the lie and is psychologically conditioned to do so. He does not resist the deceit but collaborates with it against himself. There is no struggle, because the victim surrenders before the fight begins. He enjoys being deceived.

It is altogether possible to practice fraud upon our own souls and go deceived to judgment. "If a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing," said Paul, "he deceiveth himself." With this agrees the inspired James: "If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain."

The farther we push into the sanctuary the greater becomes the danger of self-deception. The deeply religious man is far more vulnerable than the easygoing fellow who takes his religion lightly. This latter may be deceived but he is not likely to be self-deceived.

Under the pressure of deep spiritual concern, and before his heart has been wholly conquered by the Spirit of God, a man may be driven to try every dodge to save face and preserve a semblance of his old independence. This is always dangerous and if persisted in may prove calamitous.

The fallen heart is by nature idolatrous. There appears to be no limit to which some of us will go to save our idol, while at the same time telling ourselves eagerly that we are trusting in Christ alone. It takes a violent act of renunciation to deliver us from the hidden idol, and since very few modern Christians understand that such an act is necessary, and only a small number of those who know are willing to do, it follows that relatively few professors of the Christian faith these days have ever experienced the painful act of renunciation that frees the heart from idolatry.

Prayer is usually recommended as the panacea for all ills and the key to open every prison door, and it would indeed be difficult to overstate the advantages and privilege of Spirit-inspired prayer. But we must not forget that unless we are wise and watchful prayer itself may become a source of self-deception. There are as many kinds of prayer as there are problems and some kinds are not acceptable to God. The prophets of the Old Testament denounced Israel for trying to hide their iniquities behind their prayers. Christ flatly rejected the prayers of hypocrites and James declared that some religious persons ask and receive not because they ask amiss.

To escape self-deception the praying man must come out clean and honest. He cannot hide in the cross while concealing in his bosom the golden wedge and the goodly Babylonish garment. Grace will save a man but it will not save him and his idol. The blood of Christ will shield the penitent sinner alone, but never the sinner and his idol. Faith will justify the sinner, but it will never justify the sinner and his sin.

No amount of pleading will make evil good or wrong right. A man may engage in a great deal of humble talk before God and get no response because unknown to himself he is using prayer to disguise disobedience. He may lie for hours in sackcloth and ashes with no higher motive than to try to persuade God to come over on his side so he can have his own way. He may grovel before God in a welter of self-accusation, refuse to give up his secret sin and be rejected for his pains. It can happen.

Dr. H. M. Shuman once said to me in private conversation that he believed the one quality God required a man to have before He would save him was honesty. With this I heartily agree. However dishonest the man may have been before, he must put away his duplicity if he is to be accepted before the Lord. Double dealing is unutterably offensive to God. The insincere man has no claim on mercy. For such a man the cross of Christ provides no remedy. Christ can and will save a man who has been dishonest, but He cannot save him while he is dishonest. Absolute candor is an indispensable requisite to salvation.

How may we remain free from self-deception? The answer sounds old-fashioned and dull but here it is: Mean what you say and never say what you do not mean, either to God or man. Think candid thoughts and act forthrightly always, whatever the consequence. To do this will bring the cross into your life and keep you dead to self and to public opinion. And it may get you into trouble sometimes, too. But a guileless mind is a great treasure; it is worth any price.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=173

[Your closest friendnt]

On 10/31/2020 at 1:00 PM, Your closest friendnt said:

 Feel free to post a verse that Peter said:

"I am a Christian". 

  

 

17 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Peter, an apostle of Jesus 

    

This is correct, Peter was an Apostle of Jesus Christ....you did not include verse reference, but that does not change the truth that he was an Apostle of Jesus Christ and we can see that from the totality of the scriptures about Peter...

One of them is when he was sent to Cornelius Family...the Roman Captain...

[dhchristian]

15 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Perhaps that's because you don't know what an ad hominem is. An ad hominem occurs when an attack against the person is asserted as a device to dismiss that person's argument. Examples of ad hominem would be:

Peter is a Republican so his arguments about the faith of Christ are worthless.
Peter is a Democrat so his argument about the faith of Christ is worthless.
Peter is an adherent of the holiness sect so his argument is worthless. 

Not once have I ever asserted any such argument! 

Not once have i ever seen you Not attack the person, You did so with @Gideon and you have done so with myself and you are doing so with Peter. Because you see the weakness of your position on this OP you instead try to pick it apart and disgrace it without Interaction. An Ad hominem argument is a sign of weakness of ones own position and an attempt to level the playing field of the debate, Yelling louder and not letting the other side be articulated. This is in fact what SJW's do to silence the facts all the time. "You're a racist, a misogynist, white privaledge" etc. This is all you are doing but on a much more intellectual scale.  You are silencing the debate by nitpicking the one presenting what he himself is in the process of discovering, Meanwhile the one who can explain this to you keeps having their comments blocked on this site by Moderators who are equally complicit in this sort silencing. 

Now if you have any degree of philosophical Knowledge, You will admit that I am right, that you are trying to silence by use of intellectual superiority the voices of those who have less education than you do, and I am telling you you are deceiving yourself, and so did Paul in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3. It is there he presents the Christian alternative to Socratic ignorance, a concept I am sure you are familiar with which leads to in the worldly sense one to be "ever learning but never arriving at the truth" But in Paul's version "to Know nothing save Christ and him Crucified" Which leads to all truth. The carnal mind and wisdom of this world is a deceiver and it will deceive the wisest of men and they will look down on those who are simple in the faith, But it is those simple in the faith that God uses to confound the wise, as he is doing here. Do You understand? What Peter is Posting in this thread is a brilliant and simple observation of a theological distinction that has been missing in the church part of it is the result of a humanistic mindset of the modern translators (No I am not KJV only) But this is a prime example of how the culture of the translators affects the translation of scripture, So When you come at it from a libertarian perspective you are going to have that bias in your perspective, Or if you come from a paternalistic perspective your bias will be paternalistic, A Monarchial perspective is going to have Monarchial overtones, and a culture that is Humanistic as is the culture of modernism then the translations will have a humanistic perspective.

Understanding a distinction such as this gives the church a whole new way of studying the Word of God, Put simply, what Peter is saying here is good hermeneutics and adds a whole diverse field to Biblical study of the cultures of translations and how they affect the translation. He probably does not even see this himself as he is mainly concerned with accuracy of truth he is presenting. 

So In conclusion, what you are in fact doing is trying to silence something that is brilliant and will be a benefit to the church, in arriving at the Truth of the Word of God. Either you do not see this (Ignorance), You do not want to admit this ( too proud to be proven wrong), Or you are Opposing Truth willfully.  

Oh And BTW, for the record, I studied the sociology and Philosophy of Knowledge and could appeal to authority as well, but instead choose not to. You Know, Epistemology. So I fully understand the Socratic method and its flaws therein, Which is what Paul, Knew full well from his studies... Again, take the time to read the first 3 chapters in 1 Corinthians with this in mind, as this will put your carnal mind in its rightful place.  

[dhchristian]

Moderators there are now two comments that are hidden on page 59 still, Please rectify, Either with an explanation of why they are not approved or if it they are being overlooked. No Need to post this comment.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

Moderators there are now two comments that are hidden on page 59 still, Please rectify, Either with an explanation of why they are not approved or if it they are being overlooked. No Need to post this comment.

To tell you the truth, thinking that we can just be summoned to do your bidding, really makes me want to not approve your posts, it certainly doesn't make me want to. Please understand several things.

• Being on MR, is your own doing. Had you managed to stay out of trouble and off the radar, you would not be in this position. Now you are in this situation, and you are likely to stay here, until you have a lengthy streak of not being so combative and reactive in your responses. I know that people get passionate and want to be heard. However, part of the reason we use this system, is exactly because it delays posts from being seen. That helps to break the cycle of personalities yapping at each other like two dogs trying to assert dominance. Here, the one who wants to be first, should seek to be last. 
• There are not many moderators, and we have limited time. We are not going to carve out of our busy lives the time that it takes to babysit. I am sorry, but you'll have to live with that.
• If you find yourself, as many in this thread do, responding to people as personalities, instead of responding to the ideas they present, you are more likely to find yourself engaged in infighting instead of discussion. That is not going to win arguments, impress anyone, nor gain favorable treatment.

While I responded to you dhc, all of the above is applicable to all, especially in threads like this one. Those on Moderator Review, and those in danger of soon being on MR.

People, get a clue, learn from this and avoid trouble. As it is, I think that this thread has more that ran it's course, that was probably true by the 3rd or fourth page, let alone being at 60 pages now. 

In fact, I think it might be a great idea, for those who want to, to make their closing remarks, as I am very tempted to lock the thread, and cannot think of a single reason not to!

The alternative, in my eyes, is to just ban the handful of you that are engaging in your poor behaviors, and any similar subsequent thread that might pop up in the future.

[Peterlag]

12 hours ago, dhchristian said:

“It is easier to fool the people, than to convince them they have been fooled." Mark Twain.

 

As I wrote earlier on here, those who are fully immersed in the humanistic form of Christianity trying to convince them that their assumptions are off is like trying to convince an evolutionist that their assumptions are off. Self deception is the hardest deception to recognize and overcome, because at its heart is a lie you see as the truth. 

As for unity there will be both a false unity and a true unity of the Spirit. The false unity is built on ecumenism and tolerance, but the true Unity is Built on the fulness of Christ. Where he is the head , the all in all of the church, which is what your humanistic Christianity cannot grasp because its faith is in the human carnal mind and human mental capacities. All one has to do is carefully read the first 3 chapters of 1 corinthians to see this, But yet humanism is incapable of  dealing with the deception of the mind. 

You sit here and lump me into a camp (holiness) when you do not know me, others here have accused me of legalism, others of preaching lawlessness, others of being a Calvinist, others of being an Arminian, I have been accused of being a catholic for my positions on who are saints, I am accused of being charismatic by fundamentalist and a fundamentalist by charismatics, I am accused of being a cessationist by some and a continuist by others, But one who is In Christ is all of these things for they are living in the fulness of Christ.

It is you who are "labelling" people here, putting them into the box of your own understanding instead of seeing them as complex Human beings with diverse beliefs. It is you who are dividing them in your mind into rational units that you can comprehend them with your carnal mind. Is this an ad hominem response Or an accurate one. 

To the one who is self deceived they will see any rebuke, correction or otherwise as an ad hominem attack against themselves, Or as the SJW's do "cry victim" even when they are in the wrong. 

what @Peterlag has conveyed in this post Is so much bigger than what you are able to see, because you like many in Christendom are being self deceived by the lies of Humanism, and it is this humanism that forms other parts of your understanding such as your dominionist/ kingdom now eschatology. This problem of Humanism in the church is far bigger than just you, and pervades much of the institutional church of our day, and for this reason God is raising up a new Priesthood as he did in Israel, a Holy remnant, a silent revival, a treasured possession of his while the old goes on into the harlotry of humanism.... This has all been predicted in Prophecy and is coming to pass right now.

The question for any here who read this is where does your faith stand? Is it based in humanism or based in the character and authority of Jesus Christ Who is faithful? Remember this is subtile, and the devil is known for the subtility of his deception.... Work out your faith with fear and trembling.

Many cannot understand what I say because I too like you speak that which is spiritual, which cannot be understood by the carnal mind. I think 1 Corinthians is what we are dealing with here. Those who want to understand that which is spiritual with their carnal or natural old man thinking. I have answered the man so many times, but he cannot hear me. He simply cannot understand because I speak what is from the spirit of Christ.

1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The natural man does not receive the things of the spirit of God. If the natural man does not receive spiritual things, then he doesn't receive it. No matter how sincere the man looks, no matter how highly educated he may be, how sensitive and smart he is mentally, the "natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God:"

1 Corinthians 2:14
the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Theologians have given us the cosmological arguments for the existence of God. They have given us the anthropological arguments for the existence of god. They have given us the theological arguments for the existence of God. Theologians have found more pleasure on abstract theology than in personal dealings with the Almighty. Theologians have found more joy in metaphysics than in divine knowledge. They have found more of their believing in the opinions of men, rather than in the Word of God.

 

Christianity is what God wrought in Christ when He raised him from the dead. Christianity is a Father with his family. God is our Father; we are His children. God has prepared a tremendous home where God's family will be together throughout all eternity. Christianity is not philosophy; it's a divine human relationship. Philosophy is man's wisdom. Christianity is not theology. It's union with God in that family. "Ology" always means science; "Theo" means God. Theology is the science of God.

[Peterlag]

3 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

 

    

This is correct, Peter was an Apostle of Jesus Christ....you did not include verse reference, but that does not change the truth that he was an Apostle of Jesus Christ and we can see that from the totality of the scriptures about Peter...

One of them is when he was sent to Cornelius Family...the Roman Captain...

1 Peter 1:1

[dhchristian]

2 minutes ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

To tell you the truth, thinking that we can just be summoned to do your bidding, really makes me want to not approve your posts, it certainly doesn't make me want to. Please understand several things.

• Being on MR, is your own doing. Had you managed to stay out of trouble and off the radar, you would not be in this position. Now you are in this situation, and you are likely to stay here, until you have a lengthy streak of not being so combative and reactive in your responses. I know that people get passionate and want to be heard. However, part of the reason we use this system, is exactly because it delays posts from being seen. That helps to break the cycle of personalities yapping at each other like two dogs trying to assert dominance. Here, the one who wants to be first, should seek to be last. 
• There are not many moderators, and we have limited time. We are not going to carve out of our busy lives the time that it takes to babysit. I am sorry, but you'll have to live with that.
• If you find yourself, as many in this thread do, responding to people as personalities, instead of responding to the ideas they present, you are more likely to find yourself engaged in infighting instead of discussion. That is not going to win arguments, impress anyone, nor gain favorable treatment.

While I responded to you dhc, all of the above is applicable to all, especially in threads like this one. Those on Moderator Review, and those in danger of soon being on MR.

People, get a clue, learn from this and avoid trouble. As it is, I think that this thread has more that ran it's course, that was probably true by the 3rd or fourth page, let alone being at 60 pages now. 

In fact, I think it might be a great idea, for those who want to, to make their closing remarks, as I am very tempted to lock the thread, and cannot think of a single reason not to!

The alternative, in my eyes, is to just ban the handful of you that are engaging in your poor behaviors, and any similar subsequent thread that might pop up in the future.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4)

Just now, Peterlag said:

Many cannot understand what I say because I too like you speak that which is spiritual, which cannot be understood by the carnal mind. I think 1 Corinthians is what we are dealing with here. Those who want to understand that which is spiritual with their carnal or natural old man thinking. I have answered the man so many times, but he cannot hear me. He simply cannot understand because I speak what is from the spirit of Christ.

Amen Peter, 

Your on the right track, Read the 5th verse of the passage quoted above. 

God Bless

 

[Your closest friendnt]

Good bye