Mideast Peace 2.0

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Yes, the Pharisees taught that Antiochus placed the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem and said that abomination that caused desolation was a man killing a pig. 

I don't doubt that Antiochus killed a pig but what I doubt is the Pharisees interpretation that this was the abomination that causes desolation. 

According to Daniel the abomination of desolation is placed by the armed forces. According to Jesus it is a sign to watch for concerning the time of the end and his coming. 

So here we have conflicting messages that do not agree with the Pharisees teaching concerning the abomination of desolation. 

But there is another thing you are ignoring. According to Daniel, after the daily sacrifice is abolished. Those who understand are purified and made clean. 

So it raises a question. We know there is no forgiveness of sin without the offering of blood. If this was in fact fulfilled in 170bc as you say, then what was thier offering for sin that made them clean after the daily sacrifice was abolished? 

 

https://biblehub.com/niv/daniel/11-35.htm

 

The daily sacrifices of sheep and goats was to cover their sins. That is one reason Why God started the daily sacrifices. It was pointing to the ultimate sacrifice - but they did not know that. When Antiochus stopped the daily sacrifice, he was then coming against GOD who started them. 

Daniel was not a Pharisee. He wrote this:

Dan. 8:

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

There can be no doubt then that Antiochus stopped the daily sacrifices. It is truth then that after 2300 days the daily sacrifices were continued. 

Did Antiochus make Israel "desolate?" Stopping and preventing any and every sign of the worship of Jehovah is something  - perhaps desolation. having one's 8 day old circumcised baby killed and changed to mom's neck is something terrible - perhaps desolation. 

AFter the sacrifices were continued, their sins were covered according to the Old Testament law. I have ask Jews this same question: there is no blood shed for their sins, so how are their sins covered? They have had no answer. in chapter 12 Daniel said they would be purified HOW? When they see Jesus and receive Him as their Messiah!

Of course there is an abomination of desolation still in our future: we have Jesus' own words for this.  The question is, do the Jews still believe there is one in their future?

[Shilohsfoal]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The daily sacrifices of sheep and goats was to cover their sins. That is one reason Why God started the daily sacrifices. It was pointing to the ultimate sacrifice - but they did not know that. When Antiochus stopped the daily sacrifice, he was then coming against GOD who started them. 

Daniel was not a Pharisee. He wrote this:

Dan. 8:

¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

There can be no doubt then that Antiochus stopped the daily sacrifices. It is truth then that after 2300 days the daily sacrifices were continued. 

Did Antiochus make Israel "desolate?" Stopping and preventing any and every sign of the worship of Jehovah is something  - perhaps desolation. having one's 8 day old circumcised baby killed and changed to mom's neck is something terrible - perhaps desolation. 

AFter the sacrifices were continued, their sins were covered according to the Old Testament law. I have ask Jews this same question: there is no blood shed for their sins, so how are their sins covered? They have had no answer. in chapter 12 Daniel said they would be purified HOW? When they see Jesus and receive Him as their Messiah!

Of course there is an abomination of desolation still in our future: we have Jesus' own words for this.  The question is, do the Jews still believe there is one in their future?

According to Daniel, they are purified and washed clean after the sacrifice is abolished. Not after it is reinstated. In fact Daniel never says it is reinstated. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-35.htm

 

Personally I know how they are purified because I was in the same way. I also know what they understand at that time that makes them believe in Jesus. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[iamlamad]

25 minutes ago, Shilohsfoal said:

According to Daniel, they are purified and washed clean after the sacrifice is abolished. Not after it is reinstated. In fact Daniel never says it is reinstated. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-35.htm

 

Personally I know how they are purified because I was in the same way. I also know what they understand at that time that makes them believe in Jesus. 

I see the verse you are referring to. And it does talk of "the end." But perhaps it is the end of the "indignation" caused by Antiochus. 

Please expand. 

[Shilohsfoal]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I see the verse you are referring to. And it does talk of "the end." But perhaps it is the end of the "indignation" caused by Antiochus. 

Please expand. 

Expand? 

I'm not the one who says this was fulfilled by Antiochus. 

According to Daniel the daily sacrifice is abolished. After it is abolished those who understand are purified and make clean. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-35.htm

 

I'm asking you how they are washed clean after the daily sacrifice is abolished. Daniel never says the sacrifice is reinstated. 

[Shilohsfoal]

32 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I see the verse you are referring to. And it does talk of "the end." But perhaps it is the end of the "indignation" caused by Antiochus. 

Please expand. 

Maybe this verse will help you understand how they are not washed clean. 

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-4.htm

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Maybe this verse will help you understand how they are not washed clean. 

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-4.htm

I understand that: the blood of the Old Covenant could only cover sin. But even then, righteous was counted unto them by their faith.  

We know that true righteousness can only come throught Jesus Christ. And when Jesus comes, they will SEE him  know He is their Messiah. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Expand? 

I'm not the one who says this was fulfilled by Antiochus. 

According to Daniel the daily sacrifice is abolished. After it is abolished those who understand are purified and make clean. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-35.htm

 

I'm asking you how they are washed clean after the daily sacrifice is abolished. Daniel never says the sacrifice is reinstated. 

Expand on this:  " I know how they are purified because I was in the same way. I also know what they understand at that time that makes them believe in Jesus."

Daniel does: in chapter 8. It takes 2300 days and then the temple is cleansed and things are back to normal.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

OK, first we understand the Gentiles shall occupy Jerusalem for 42 months. 

https://biblehub.com/revelation/11-2.htm

Yes.

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Daniel tells us these Gentiles shall accomplish two things in Daniel 11:31.They will abolish the daily sacrifice and place the abomination of desolation. 

https://biblehub.com/niv/daniel/11-31.htm

Yes

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

According to Daniel, there are 1290 days between these two events(42 months). 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/12-11.htm

It's possible to read it that way but I don't think that's the case. Daniel asked, " And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]? "

The answer is from the dual event to the end will be 1260 days. Not between the end of the sacrifices and the A of D. That would leave the question unanswered.

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Jesus tells us that when the abomination of desolation is placed there will be great distress, the likes of which have never been seen. 

https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/24-21.htm

Yes.

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

As you know, Jesus often repeats what other prophets have said. In this case he repeated Daniel when Daniel had written that at that time there would be distress, the likes of which have never been seen. 

https://biblehub.com/niv/daniel/12-1.htm

Yes.

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Daniel also said the resurrection would take place at that time which would put the event at the time of the second coming and not 42 months prior when the Gentiles from the north begin their occupation.

Yes. Totally agree.

21 hours ago, Shilohsfoal said:

Jesus also said those in Judea would flee when they see the abomination of desolation which is another important clue as to when the abomination of desolation is placed. Zechariah prophecies they would flee on the day of the Lord when the Lord comes. Not 42 months prior. 

https://biblehub.com/zechariah/14-5.htm

I cannot equate the two. At the A of D the people in Judea flee from a detestable thing placed in the Temple and the coming results.  In Zech 14 the people are fleeing to safety from the Lord's wrath when He comes to save Jerusalem.

At the A of D a horrible time begins and continues till the Lord comes.

When the Lord touches down on the Mount of Olives the siege of Jerusalem is over.

Daniel says in the middle of the week, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate,"

Zechariah says after, "the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city."

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle."

So after "the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile," only then does "His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley,"

So there are two flights: one from the death and destruction of the A of D and one to the safety of the Lord's provision.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

50 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Yes.

Yes

It's possible to read it that way but I don't think that's the case. Daniel asked, " And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what [shall be] the end of these [things]? "

The answer is from the dual event to the end will be 1260 days. Not between the end of the sacrifices and the A of D. That would leave the question unanswered.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes. Totally agree.

I cannot equate the two. At the A of D the people in Judea flee from a detestable thing placed in the Temple and the coming results.  In Zech 14 the people are fleeing to safety from the Lord's wrath when He comes to save Jerusalem.

At the A of D a horrible time begins and continues till the Lord comes.

When the Lord touches down on the Mount of Olives the siege of Jerusalem is over.

Daniel says in the middle of the week, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate,"

Zechariah says after, "the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city."

"Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle."

So after "the city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women ravished. Half of the city will go into exile," only then does "His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley,"

So there are two flights: one from the death and destruction of the A of D and one to the safety of the Lord's provision.

 

So you believe everyone will flee to the mountains for safety from the abomination of desolation. 

They will then all return home. 

And then three years later they will all flee to the mountains again to hide in the dens? 

 

Jesus speaking of the abomination of desolation said it would be a time of great distress, the likes of which have never been seen OR SHALL EVER BE SEEN AGAIN. 

It don't get any worse than this. 

https://biblehub.com/niv/matthew/24-21.htm

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2020 by Shilohsfoal

[Shilohsfoal]

9 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Expand on this:  " I know how they are purified because I was in the same way. I also know what they understand at that time that makes them believe in Jesus."

Daniel does: in chapter 8. It takes 2300 days and then the temple is cleansed and things are back to normal.

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-35.htm

Yes I know how they are purified after the daily sacrifice is abolished because I was purified the same way. They are baptised in the holy ghost. 

But I understand this because I know this event is future and not past. 

I think you said the daily sacrifice was abolished by Antiochus so that would mean you believe it took place in 170 bc. 

So how do you say they are made clean after the daily sacrifice is abolished? PS, Daniel never said it would be reinstated. 

https://biblehub.com/daniel/11-35.htm