Lordship salvation

[David1701]

2 minutes ago, Don19 said:

Sanctification means to set apart, which is also positional and has to do with our standing in Christ, not improvements in the flesh as you keep insisting. What you’ve just said here denies any true possibility for assurance. If you’re looking to your works to know whether you belong to Christ, you are not worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth. That’s worshiping the works of your own hands. Isaiah 2:8. 

I said NOTHING about "improvements in the flesh", so you can stop your lies right now!  You do know that lying is a sin, don't you?

We (I mean real Christians) are set apart for the Lord, more and more, as he works in us, to will and to do of his good pleasure.  If you do not bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, it is because you have not been born of God and are still in your sins.

1 John 3:8,9 (EMTV)

8 He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

[Don19]

Just now, David1701 said:

I said NOTHING about "improvements in the flesh", so you can stop your lies right now!  You do know that lying is a sin, don't you?

We (I mean real Christians) are set apart for the Lord, more and more, as he works in us, to will and to do of his good pleasure.  If you do not bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, it is because you have not been born of God and are still in your sins.

I know you’re not saying it, but that’s where what you’re saying leads to. I am calling it as it is, which may not be as you characterize it. 

You can’t have the fruit of the Holy Spirit without first having received the earnest of the Spirit in your heart. Receiving the Spirit comes by faith, not works of law. If you’re looking to yourself to see if you’re walking the narrow path, and basing your assurance on that, you’re not walking after the Spirit, but the flesh. 

Just now, David1701 said:

 

1 John 3:8,9 (EMTV)

8 He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

I already explained this passage. 

[Alive]

53 minutes ago, David1701 said:

I said NOTHING about "improvements in the flesh", so you can stop your lies right now!  You do know that lying is a sin, don't you?

We (I mean real Christians) are set apart for the Lord, more and more, as he works in us, to will and to do of his good pleasure.  If you do not bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, it is because you have not been born of God and are still in your sins.

1 John 3:8,9 (EMTV)

8 He who practices sin is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this reason the Son of God appeared, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 

David--you can get your point across without that kind of inflammatory language. Please--you can do better. Consider first thinking the best of a brother rather than indicting him in this manner.

Thank you.

[Debp]

On 11/4/2020 at 11:56 AM, Don19 said:

Listen to LS preachers, and they're all about a fleshy transformation, striving after the flesh to do righteousness, and not resting in Christ.

Well said.   We must rest in Christ as our Savior.   Christ alone is our great Salvation.   Any good works that we do result from our being new creations in Christ.    But we must always base our great Salvation on Christ and His blood atonement for our sins.   We must not add our own efforts as a condition for receiving or keeping salvation.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

David--you can get your point across without that kind of inflammatory language. Please--you can do better. Consider first thinking the best of a brother rather than indicting him in this manner.

Thank you.

An expected reaction, on this forum - "correct" the one who points out the false accusation, rather than the one who made it in the first place.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Don19 said:

I know you’re not saying it...

Then you should not be falsely, and knowingly, accusing me of saying it.  It's called "lying".

Quote

...but that’s where what you’re saying leads to. I am calling it as it is, which may not be as you characterize it. 

If you think that what I believe leads to the conclusion of the flesh being improved, then that is what you should say (and you would need to provide evidence for that), rather than falsely accusing me of keeping insisting on improvements in the flesh.  You are not stupid, so your wording was not an innocent mistake, was it?

Here is what you posted, "Sanctification means to set apart, which is also positional and has to do with our standing in Christ, not improvements in the flesh as you keep insisting.".  I have made bold the false accusation in question.

Quote

You can’t have the fruit of the Holy Spirit without first having received the earnest of the Spirit in your heart.

Yes, obviously - what is your point?

Quote

Receiving the Spirit comes by faith, not works of law.

Yes, obviously - what is your point?

Quote

If you’re looking to yourself to see if you’re walking the narrow path, and basing your assurance on that, you’re not walking after the Spirit, but the flesh. 

And you base this opinion on what, exactly?  Fruit bearing (or lack thereof) is one of the main tests for whether or not someone is a genuine Christian.  It is not the only test, but is an important one.

Matt. 3:10 (WEB) Even now the axe lies at the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree that doesn’t bring forth good fruit is cut down, and cast into the fire.

Gal. 5:16-23 (WEB)

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. 
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 
23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Quote

I already explained this passage.

Very badly....

1 John 3:9 (KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Robertson's Word Pictures

     "Doeth no sin  (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like αμαρτανε in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.
His seed  (σπερμα αυτου). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. Joh 1.
And he cannot sin  (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were κα ου δυνατα αμαρτειν or αμαρτησα (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of αμαρτανε in verse 8 and αμαρτανων in verse 6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε and αμαρτη in 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Ro 6:1 επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν in Ro 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive)." 

The above is why I used the ESV, not the KJV, when I first quoted the passage for you.

1 John 3:9 (ESV) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's  seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

[Michael37]

3 hours ago, Alive said:

David--you can get your point across without that kind of inflammatory language. Please--you can do better. Consider first thinking the best of a brother rather than indicting him in this manner.

Thank you.

I think it's time the Omegaman Protocol of Disengagement was applied by certain parties on this thread:

 

[Don19]

13 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Then you should not be falsely, and knowingly, accusing me of saying it.  It's called "lying".

If you think that what I believe leads to the conclusion of the flesh being improved, then that is what you should say (and you would need to provide evidence for that), rather than falsely accusing me of keeping insisting on improvements in the flesh.  You are not stupid, so your wording was not an innocent mistake, was it?

Here is what you posted, "Sanctification means to set apart, which is also positional and has to do with our standing in Christ, not improvements in the flesh as you keep insisting.".  I have made bold the false accusation in question.

Here's the deal - sanctification means to set apart. The New Testament meaning concerns a Christian's positional standing in Christ as righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness. If you contend that it does not, then you contend it means something fleshy. It's either one or the other - Spirit or flesh. You say it has to do with improving one's behavior and sinning less. Have I misrepresented your position? I don't believe so. I am aware that yours is a commonly-held Reformed position. It is for this reason I say, if you set forth sanctification as not being in the Spirit (that is, being of promise, to the exclusion of works of law, Gal 3:18) then you set it forth as in the flesh. It's either one or the other.

The flesh includes all the efforts of your flesh to be right with God. Hence, for example, Paul tells the Galatians that they're foolish, having begun in the Spirit, thinking they're now made perfect in the flesh - that is, by works of law.

 

13 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Yes, obviously - what is your point?

No, it doesn't seem to be an obvious point, because you earlier said,

"The evidence that you have gone through the narrow gate, is that you are walking in the narrow way."

This is putting the cart before the horse. Hence why I said what I said about improving the flesh. If you tell a new convert, to believe in Christ and that the evidence that he has truly believed to the saving of his soul is that he will live a lifetime of some minimal level of obedience to Christ, which you might wrongly call "sanctification," then you have mixed law and grace. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump - Gal 5:9. Such a position is "after the flesh" in the same way Paul told the Galatians they were trying to attempt perfection in the flesh rather than in the Spirit.

Have I misrepresented your position? Would you tell that to a new convert?

To be in the Spirit means to have known, by experiential knowledge, the promise of God for oneself. Hence, to have received the sealing of the Spirit at conversion, the earnest of the heavenly inheritance in your heart (Eph 1:13-14, 2 Cor 1:21-22) means that you know, because God Himself has told you by His own personal testimony, that your salvation is eternally secure (1 Cor 2:12, 1 Thess 1:4-5, 1 John 4:13, 1 John 5:6-10, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Peter 1:17-19, Rev 12:17, Rev 19:10). Therefore, to be in the Spirit utterly precludes what you wrote which I quoted above, since all other righteousness is after the flesh - whether it's to earn salvation, keep salvation, or prove salvation. And if you're working, then you're not worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth. Any praises you sing to God are not in Spirit or in Truth, since God demands worship in Spirit and in Truth; but the one who's looking to himself is worshiping the works of his own hands. Nor are you resting (Matthew 11:28-30), which is the great spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath for those in Christ.

 

13 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Yes, obviously - what is your point?

So we are to walk in Christ just as we received Him (Col 2:6).

 

13 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Gal. 5:16-23 (WEB)

 

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21 envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. 
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 
23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

 

Very badly....

1 John 3:9 (KJV) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Robertson's Word Pictures

     "Doeth no sin  (αμαρτιαν ου ποιε). Linear present active indicative as in verse 4 like αμαρτανε in verse 8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.
His seed  (σπερμα αυτου). God's seed, "the divine principle of life" (Vincent). Cf. Joh 1.
And he cannot sin  (κα ου δυνατα αμαρτανειν). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means "and he cannot commit sin" as if it were κα ου δυνατα αμαρτειν or αμαρτησα (second aorist or first aorist active infinitive). The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν can only mean "and he cannot go on sinning," as is true of αμαρτανε in verse 8 and αμαρτανων in verse 6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε and αμαρτη in 2:1. A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν here. Paul has precisely John's idea in Ro 6:1 επιμενωμεν τη αμαρτια (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν in Ro 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive)." 

The above is why I used the ESV, not the KJV, when I first quoted the passage for you.

1 John 3:9 (ESV) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's  seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

The problem with basing your argument on the nuances of Ancient Greek, is that even any carnal reader who was a native speaker of that language would not hear and understand what John was saying (1 John 4:6). It requires spiritual interpretation, and comparing Scripture with Scripture.

John said he wrote his first epistle "that ye sin not" (2:1). Of course, this was after writing that we lie and deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin (1:8). And we must also harmonize this with the fact that sin does so easily beset us (Heb 12:1). I perceive that the sin John was talking about here was unbelief (or lack of assurance). Hence he also said he wrote "that your joy may be full" (1:4), and further states he wrote the epistle that we may know we have eternal life (5:13). It is in mortifying the sin of unbelief that those two things can take place. And unbelief is a bad sin, because the one who doesn't believe God "hath made him a liar" (5:10). So if any man sins, and doubts his salvation, doubts even the witness that is in him (5:10), then it is a really bad sin because assurance is of the essence of faith (Heb 11:1). Nevertheless, that sin is forgiven, as we have an Advocate with the Father, as are all the other sins.

Unbelief also has the effect of defiling the conscience. Titus 1:15-16. So whether we're talking about unbelief as the sin itself, or the downstream effects of unbelief, the interpretation can go either way. James says that if anyone converts a brother who has erred from the truth, he will also hide a multitude of sins (James 5:19-20). This is because anything not done in faith is sin (Romans 14:23), even if it's otherwise acceptable if done in faith.

And so, likewise, any time you see those sin lists in the Bible, such as you cited, you need to understand that's talking about unbelievers. Paul says the one who judges by law does "the same things" (Rom 2:1-3) even after he got done naming sins like sodomy, murder, fornication, etc., at the end of Romans 1. That's because if anyone shall keep the whole law, and yet offend at just one point, he is guilty of it all (James 2:10). He may not be a murderer, sodomite, fornicator in the eyes of men, but he is all those things before God.

[enoob57]

2 hours ago, David1701 said:

An expected reaction, on this forum - "correct" the one who points out the false accusation, rather than the one who made it in the first place.

Gal 6:1

6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
KJV
 

[David1701]

6 minutes ago, Don19 said:

Here's the deal - sanctification means to set apart. The New Testament meaning concerns a Christian's positional standing in Christ as righteous by imputation of Christ's righteousness. If you contend that it does not, then you contend it means something fleshy. It's either one or the other - Spirit or flesh. You say it has to do with improving one's behavior and sinning less. Have I misrepresented your position? I don't believe so. I am aware that yours is a commonly-held Reformed position. It is for this reason I say, if you set forth sanctification as not being in the Spirit (that is, being of promise, to the exclusion of works of law, Gal 3:18) then you set it forth as in the flesh. It's either one or the other.

The flesh includes all the efforts of your flesh to be right with God. Hence, for example, Paul tells the Galatians that they're foolish, having begun in the Spirit, thinking they're now made perfect in the flesh - that is, by works of law.

 

No, it doesn't seem to be an obvious point, because you earlier said,

"The evidence that you have gone through the narrow gate, is that you are walking in the narrow way."

This is putting the cart before the horse. Hence why I said what I said about improving the flesh. If you tell a new convert, to believe in Christ and that the evidence that he has truly believed to the saving of his soul is that he will live a lifetime of some minimal level of obedience to Christ, which you might wrongly call "sanctification," then you have mixed law and grace. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump - Gal 5:9. Such a position is "after the flesh" in the same way Paul told the Galatians they were trying to attempt perfection in the flesh rather than in the Spirit.

Have I misrepresented your position? Would you tell that to a new convert?

To be in the Spirit means to have known, by experiential knowledge, the promise of God for oneself. Hence, to have received the sealing of the Spirit at conversion, the earnest of the heavenly inheritance in your heart (Eph 1:13-14, 2 Cor 1:21-22) means that you know, because God Himself has told you by His own personal testimony, that your salvation is eternally secure (1 Cor 2:12, 1 Thess 1:4-5, 1 John 4:13, 1 John 5:6-10, 2 Peter 1:3-4, 2 Peter 1:17-19, Rev 12:17, Rev 19:10). Therefore, to be in the Spirit utterly precludes what you wrote which I quoted above, since all other righteousness is after the flesh - whether it's to earn salvation, keep salvation, or prove salvation. And if you're working, then you're not worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth. Any praises you sing to God are not in Spirit or in Truth, since God demands worship in Spirit and in Truth; but the one who's looking to himself is worshiping the works of his own hands. Nor are you resting (Matthew 11:28-30), which is the great spiritual fulfillment of the Sabbath for those in Christ.

 

So we are to walk in Christ just as we received Him (Col 2:6).

 

The problem with basing your argument on the nuances of Ancient Greek, is that even any carnal reader who was a native speaker of that language would not hear and understand what John was saying (1 John 4:6). It requires spiritual interpretation, and comparing Scripture with Scripture.

John said he wrote his first epistle "that ye sin not" (2:1). Of course, this was after writing that we lie and deceive ourselves if we say we have no sin (1:8). And we must also harmonize this with the fact that sin does so easily beset us (Heb 12:1). I perceive that the sin John was talking about here was unbelief (or lack of assurance). Hence he also said he wrote "that your joy may be full" (1:4), and further states he wrote the epistle that we may know we have eternal life (5:13). It is in mortifying the sin of unbelief that those two things can take place. And unbelief is a bad sin, because the one who doesn't believe God "hath made him a liar" (5:10). So if any man sins, and doubts his salvation, doubts even the witness that is in him (5:10), then it is a really bad sin because assurance is of the essence of faith (Heb 11:1). Nevertheless, that sin is forgiven, as we have an Advocate with the Father, as are all the other sins.

Unbelief also has the effect of defiling the conscience. Titus 1:15-16. So whether we're talking about unbelief as the sin itself, or the downstream effects of unbelief, the interpretation can go either way. James says that if anyone converts a brother who has erred from the truth, he will also hide a multitude of sins (James 5:19-20). This is because anything not done in faith is sin (Romans 14:23), even if it's otherwise acceptable if done in faith.

And so, likewise, any time you see those sin lists in the Bible, such as you cited, you need to understand that's talking about unbelievers. Paul says the one who judges by law does "the same things" (Rom 2:1-3) even after he got done naming sins like sodomy, murder, fornication, etc., at the end of Romans 1. That's because if anyone shall keep the whole law, and yet offend at just one point, he is guilty of it all (James 2:10). He may not be a murderer, sodomite, fornicator in the eyes of men, but he is all those things before God.

I want to know why you keep putting words in my mouth.  It's offensive and could mislead others into thinking that your projections are what I actually believe.

Here's some brief, basic instruction on sanctification (there is much, much more than this).

1) Yes, its basic meaning is "set apart".

2) This has a range of applications (even pots and pans could be set apart for God's use, in the OT).

3) God set apart certain people, to be objects of his grace, before the foundation of the world.  The benefits of this are applied to us in time.

4) Sanctification, in our daily lives, means being set apart for the Lord, from sin.  This is progressive.

"The evidence that you have gone through the narrow gate, is that you are walking in the narrow way."

Quote

This is putting the cart before the horse. Hence why I said what I said about improving the flesh.

Your comment is meaningless. 

1) You go through the narrow gate, by God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ.

2) The Holy Spirit indwells and works in you, to will and to do of God's good pleasure.

3) This results in fruit-bearing and willing submission to the Lord (walking in the narrow way).

This order is correct and is nothing to do with "improving the flesh", which is an impossibility (in our flesh there dwells no good thing - it is the soul that is improved, not the flesh). 

Would you honestly reverse the order and have fruit-bearing BEFORE being saved by grace through faith?  I hope not.

Quote

If you tell a new convert, to believe in Christ and that the evidence that he has truly believed to the saving of his soul is that he will live a lifetime of some minimal level of obedience to Christ, which you might wrongly call "sanctification," then you have mixed law and grace.

What are you talking about?!  This is nothing like what I believe!

1) A new convert has already believed in Christ, otherwise he would not be a convert at all!

2) What is this rubbish about a "lifetime of some minimal level of obedience to Christ"?  Where do you get that drivel from?  It is certainly not what I believe, nor, more importantly, is it what the Bible says.

3) There are several biblical evidences that you have been saved.

a) You have faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, and only in him.

b) You believe that Jesus is God and man

c) You have the witness of the Holy Spirit

d) You bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, in willing submission to the Lord

e) You do not live a life characterised by sin (this is not sinless perfection)

There are others; but these are some of the main ones.

Please STOP making things up about what I believe.  You clearly do not understand much, so ASK, don't assume!