The Bethel False Prophets

[Paul James]

On 11/15/2020 at 5:45 PM, Tristen said:

“I reject every prophecy that comes from the Bethel "school of prophets" because the foundation of that church is non-Biblical and therefore cultish; therefore every prophecy and teaching that comes out of that movement is contaminated with spiritual poison”

Can you understand that all I see in the above statement is empty rhetorical bluster? I appreciate that you have an opinion, and maybe good reasons to believe what you do, but there is nothing in this statement that would cause a rational thinker to give any credence to your claims.

I'm seriously not trying to be difficult – just trying to get you to understand my perspective.

 

“At least we can recognise that movements like the JWs and the Mormons are cults because it is obvious that they do not conform to the true gospel of Christ”

If by “they do not conform to the true gospel of Christ” you mean they explicitly deny the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith (e.g. The Divine, exclusive Authority of authorised Scripture, the Eternal Deity of Christ, the Bodily Resurrection of Christ etc.), then yes, I agree.

 

“But movements like Bethel and Hillsong are much more deceptive because they identify themselves as Christian and appear to be passionate in their "christian" worship. But looking deeper into these movements and comparing them to Scripture, we see things that are missing from the New Testament and more compared to New Age mysticism, Hindu Kundalini, occult practices, and hypnotic suggestion; and this deception is leading unknowing people on the road to hell”

Again, there is nothing in this statement that would cause me to take it seriously; i.e. nothing of rational substance that would provoke me to consider these accusations as legitimate.

 

“So I compare the Bethel "school of the prophets" to the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel, and to the 400 prophets who spoke from a lying spirit to advise King Ahab that he was going to win the battle. Those 400 prophets sounded exactly like the Bethel "school of prophets", and not like Michaiah who was thrown into prison because he spoke the truth - that Ahab was going to die. So I guess that according to what you are saying Michaiah was of the devil because he judged Ahab when all the other prophets were being positive and prophesying victory and future hope”

So in this story, you are the holy “prophet of the Lord”, speaking on behalf of God so that your word is beyond reproach – and is to be believed without question – and Bethel are the prophets infested with a “lying spirit”? Lol.

Michaiah was a prophet of God in a context where a false prophecy would cost his life. But you demonstrate no such fear of God or accountability in your accusations.

 

This is hate speech and exposes what spirit you are of.

[Tristen]

2 hours ago, Paul James said:

This is hate speech and exposes what spirit you are of.

Lol. What???

I think you are the first Christian I've ever heard appeal to the “hate speech” coercive strategy. Usually it's non-Christians accusing Christians of the ill-defined (and therefore highly equivocal) characterisation of “hate speech” - to try and bully the Christians out of the conversation.

Are you now exercising your “no skin off my nose” right to judge and attack Christians - to make unqualified, unsupported accusations and insinuations against me? That's an exciting new twist. Not-to-mention the irony that you think this conversation “exposes” anything negative about my “spirit”.

I've basically suggested that Christians should be cautious about accusations against other Christians, and that when we do criticise, we should provide thorough, quality arguments. How spiritually awful of me.

 

[GandalfTheWise]

2 hours ago, Momma_Bear said:

While there are those who do call out NAMES... there are others who simply look at the doctrine/beliefs/teachings... and then simply choose to IGNORE all those in their groups... This is NOT about so and so... It is about FALSE TEACHING. 

Once of the biggest challenges facing Christians and the body of Christ is that there is not complete agreement on what constitutes false teaching.  There is an old church adage that has shown up in many forms over the centuries.  In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things love.   The administrators of this site have clearly stated in the past that they wish to see this principle embodied on this site.

I think we need to clearly separate out fundamental issues (e.g. Jesus Christ is fully human and divine, Christ's atonement is the means of salvation, Trinitarian beliefs) from those things that are ultimately differences of opinion and preference among those who are Christians.  My observation is that I have personally known many Christians with different opinions and preferences who clearly exhibit fruit of the Spirit in their lives and show strong evidence of having their lives transformed by God over many years and decades in their lives.  

Off the top of my head, here's a partial list of things I've seen some label as false teaching on this site which have lead to personal attacks that someone is not a Christian for disagreeing.

A few years ago there was a group of people on here who believed that the Bible taught that the earth was flat.  To disbelieve that meant you rejected scripture.

Some believe that any who do not believe in young earth creationism reject scripture.

Some believe that acceptance of once-save always-saved is a heresy and some believe rejection of it is a heresy.  Some think that anyone who disagrees is a false teacher.

Some believe only one particular version of the Bible is the real one (usually the KJV but there was one advocate of only using the Wycliffe Bible here for a time).  Some of them believe Christians who don't use only the one correct version are being led into error.

Some believe in some form of cessationism (i.e. that spiritual gifts such as tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.) were only for the start of the church and that most occurrences of such things today are occult or demonic in nature.  Others believe that rejecting such gifts is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Some believe that God does not speak to Christians in any manner today except through the Bible (and anything else is of human or demonic origin) whereas others believe that God does speak to Christians to day (in ways which will always be consistent with scripture). 

Some believe that not holding the correct view of end times means holding to false teaching.

Some believe that it is impossible for people belonging to particular denominations or churches to be Christians.

Some active on this site in the past (and probably some today) believed that disagreeing on some of these matters meant that a person was a heretic, a wolf, and not a Christian.  

I am very frustrated when Christians elevate their opinions to the level of fundamental Christian teachings.  The last church we went to before we moved was the best I'd been in in my life.  The last year there were a lot of conversions and about 100 adult baptisms in the year.  It was generally peaceful and harmonious (in spite of being in a city marked by political division and strife).  The church itself was a merger of two churches that had split from each other about twenty years before and reconciled.  One time I showed up early for a Saturday morning seminar and found most of the senior staff there (including the senior pastor) helping to set up chairs and tables along with everyone else.  The senior staff was humble and spiritual and clearly displayed fruit of the Spirit in their lives and interactions with everyone.  They truly lead by example.  In addition, they were wise and experienced people who could give good counsel on matters.  A part of the regular services were people from the congregation giving testimonies about what God was doing in their lives.  The church sponsors a satellite location for a well-known Christian university for people to get AA degrees in ministry.  One of the largest food banks in the state was started by members of the church.  There were a number of specialized and small group ministries which reached into the community.  People were encouraged to grow and step out into ministry.  When we moved to our current location, we started going to my mother-in-law's church (which we do like).  But I find it sad that this church is so concerned with doctrinal matters that multiple pastors confronting "false teaching" from the pulpit had a difference of opinion with our previous church in which they were basically calling them false teachers.  Most sitting in this church now believe that our previous church is to be avoided because of false teaching.

[GandalfTheWise]

9 minutes ago, Momma_Bear said:

and it goes on and on.... and on.... 

Speaking for myself... I have found certain truths necessary to discover... Over the years... I have been baffled by the term "Christian unity"... I have also been baffled over the scripture that you have posted regarding unity in essentials and liberty in non-essentials. @GandalfTheWise

I do not call out names of pastors or teachers... It's not my place to openly condemn those who preach any kind of platform... I do however ignore them... and refuse to listen to any teachings of the Word of Faith/Prosperity Doctrine... I simply have no desire to fill my mind with what is being taught. That is a choice that we all have... and that I exercise. 

With the issue of loss of salvation... I struggled with this one... and I am guilty of much fighting over those who would suggest that a Christian can lose their salvation... To me ... it doesn't get more essential than knowing if a Christian can be secure in their walk....However... have found that this site does not see this as an essential... and so I don't fight anymore... but neither do I listen to those preaching about the ability to lose salvation...

I guess this makes my world very small... but I am ok with that. 

Anyways... Not sure why my comment was chosen to highlight... but this is my response... 

I really have come a long way in these last months.... I just keep to myself... and mind my own business... I have given up trying to understand Christian unity... as I do not believe it exists. 

 

 

 I truly hope you didn't take my post as an attack or rebuke because it was not meant as such.   It just seemed a good starting point for some comments on what false teaching is.  For the most part, Christians agree it should be confronted, but disagree on what it is.

The essentials/non-essentials statement is not a scripture quotation but rather a saying that many Christians think is a good summary of how we should act toward one another.   It became well known through the Moravian revival where Christians with a range of doctrinal views and backgrounds fleeing persecution formed a community in Herrnhut (now in Germany).  Many trace much of modern Christian missions to this small community.  

For me, Christian unity is rooted in Jesus' prayer for Christians in John 17 (specifically verses 11,21, 22, and 23).  For example, 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.  John 17:22-23 NIV.  In addition, I'd toss in Psalm 133:  1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity! 2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, evenAaron’s beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments; 3 as the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the Lord commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.  Ps 133 KJV

The term "unity" is ambiguous today and used by various people to mean different things.  For me, Christian unity is when Christians (people with apparent fruit of the Spirit in their lives, clearly transformed lives, who can testify of Jesus Christ's work in their lives) in good conscious and peace and friendship can fellowship and minister together without constantly stressing out over differences.  I've been part of a few small limited communities where this is a reality.  We truly saw each other for who we each individually were as valuable unique individuals created by God to reflect His glory in unique ways.  Our doctrinal and political opinions were a minor blip on the radar screen compared to seeing each others' spiritual growth and rejoicing in it.  I've seen that such a community and relationships among Christians is possible and I think it is what God wants for us.

 

[Tristen]

11 hours ago, Paul James said:

This is hate speech and exposes what spirit you are of.

On further reflection, and given your appeal to “hate speech”, it occurs to me that I may have misunderstood the nature of our conversation.

Since I am confident I have made my point clearly, and since I suspect you probably won't consider any more of what I have to say, I'd at least encourage you to re-read through @GandalfTheWise's lengthy and very thorough ( ) critique of the OP.

Found here for convenience;

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/259449-the-bethel-false-prophets/?do=findComment&comment=3304184

It takes a similar position to me, but probably expressed better.

Cheers for the conversation.

[NotAllThere]

10 hours ago, Momma_Bear said:

Blessings to you... I am grateful that I no longer feel the need to EXPOSE false doctrine. It has given me some much needed peace as well as the ability to simply sit in the Presence of God as HIS Child. 

I know what you mean. As it says in the Psalms "No concern for things too great for me".

I'm quite happy to give my opinion on any subject, including Christian organisations and individuals - but only where I've had personal experience. I hope where I have serious doubts I can couch those in terms that are warnings rather than slander. Where I have no personal experience, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt!

[missmuffet]

The Bethel Church is The New Apostalic Reformation movement. It is not biblical. 

[Paul James]

10 hours ago, Tristen said:

Lol. What???

I think you are the first Christian I've ever heard appeal to the “hate speech” coercive strategy. Usually it's non-Christians accusing Christians of the ill-defined (and therefore highly equivocal) characterisation of “hate speech” - to try and bully the Christians out of the conversation.

Are you now exercising your “no skin off my nose” right to judge and attack Christians - to make unqualified, unsupported accusations and insinuations against me? That's an exciting new twist. Not-to-mention the irony that you think this conversation “exposes” anything negative about my “spirit”.

I've basically suggested that Christians should be cautious about accusations against other Christians, and that when we do criticise, we should provide thorough, quality arguments. How spiritually awful of me.

 

What I suggest you do is to research the activities of Bethel and Hillsong, compare what they teach and do with the New Testament, and come to your own conclusions as to whether they are Biblical movements or not.  There is a good Youtube video called "Draining the Charismatic Swamp" which I found very useful in showing what these movements are all about.

[Paul James]

On 11/10/2020 at 1:16 AM, Drafido said:

so called Christian "prophets" have the same accuracy or maybe even worse, than psychics.  It's the same with speaking in tongues - a strange psychic condition that 99% of the time is gibberish and not xenoglossy.  

I concur with your first sentence.  But, in view of your second sentence, are you saying that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is not true?   Or maybe all you have seen is the Bethel, Hillsong, and Kenny Copeland version of speaking in tongues, which are utterances coming from heretic non-Christian cults disguised as "Charismatic".  Where the gift of tongues is used in accordance with Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 14, wholesale public speaking in tongues is non-existent, unless someone speaks several sentences in tongues and another person gives an interpretation of it.   I agree that the out-of-control babbling in "tongues" (not the real gift) in conjunction with falling down, shaking, jerking and uncontrolled hollow laughter is either kundalini, occult, or from hypnotic suggestion.  When genuine Charismatics pray in tongues, they know exactly what they are doing, who they are praying to, and why they are speaking in that way.  And you never hear them, because they are praying in their secret prayer closets away from the public view of sticky beaking spectators.

[Paul James]

On 11/10/2020 at 6:13 AM, teddyv said:

I was thinking of the classic "Picard facepalm", but I still have no idea how to post images here.

If you look below, you will see "drag files here to attach or choose files.  That's how you include images.  Save your image to your pictures folder and then choose it from there to include in your reply.