Paul an Apostle?

[Frits]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

There are a few places where Paul state he is writing his personal opinion, or something

You write, "There are a few places ... Paul ... is writing his ... opinion, or something".
If we want to use God's word "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction," you really need to give some of Paul's concrete teachings as an example, rather than this vague sentence.

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

are the figurative passages more authoritative than the literal passages, or are the to be considered subordinate to the literal?

Someone repeatedly wrote here,

"Context is everything."

If you give me the context, I will tell you how to value it properly.

[Duck]

Text without context is pretext 

[Starise]

15 hours ago, David1701 said:

Whilst there is no doubt that studying the Bible is a good and right thing to do, be careful, when using the KJV, that you understand when language usage has changed, as is the case with "study", in 2 Tim..

2 Tim. 2:15 (KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Here's Thayer's Lexicon's definition of the Greek word translated "study", in the KJV.

[*Thayer*]

"4704 spoudazo {spoo-dad'-zo} from 4710;  1) to hasten, make haste 2) to exert one's self, endeavour, give diligence"

 

Modern translations do not use "study", because it is no longer used to mean "give diligence" or "endeavour".

 

2 Tim. 2:15 (EMTV) Be diligent to show yourself approved unto God, a worker unashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

 

I wasn't referencing the KJV although this passage is in it as well. Thanks for showing a deeper meaning to the terms. With respect to the subject matter I believe this subject is going to center on Biblical study which involves due diligence to text comparisons.

I need to access a few decent lexicons, preferably in digital form. Is Thayer's available online as a download? Thanks.

 I think some people tend to be more analytical when reading the Bible while others just read it ask no questions, and move on. That isn't me. I seldom read very far in the  word until I've come across a question I need to answer. I suspect from reading this thread there are others who are the same. There is an answer for every question, but sometimes it's a placeholder answer such as, " One day the Lord will reveal it more clearly", or as I heard recently , " God lets us know all we need to know in these 66 books. If it isn't in there, we don't need to know it." I think the 66 books might be debatable, but I didn't let on. 66 books is adequate but I'm not convinced it was only 66 books in the beginning. 

When it comes to this study, for me it wasn't guilty until proven innocent, it was a steep cliff to scale in order to sustain the argument. So far we haven't made it up 10 ft. yet there are concerns that would allow for a misunderstanding IMHO. Similar to maybe the different accounts of the resurrection we see in the first 4 gospels. You really have to analyze that and take other things into consideration to accept that it still fits. On the surface it doesn't fit. If you were a first time reader speed reading through the gospels you might begin to wonder.

 

 

[SisterWells]

5 hours ago, Frits said:

You write, "There are a few places ... Paul ... is writing his ... opinion, or something".
If we want to use God's word "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction," you really need to give some of Paul's concrete teachings as an example, rather than this vague sentence.

 

1 hour ago, Duck said:

Text without context is pretext 

1 Corinthians 7:6, and  7:12

 

[SisterWells]

35 minutes ago, Starise said:

I need to access a few decent lexicons, preferably in digital form. Is Thayer's available online as a download? Thanks.

I love Blueletterbible.org. So many tools, so easy to use.

 Brief explanation of Blueletterbible's Thayer's tool

[Starise]

30 minutes ago, SisterWells said:

I love Blueletterbible.org. So many tools, so easy to use.

 Brief explanation of Blueletterbible's Thayer's tool

Thanks!

[Duck]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Yep. 

Amen.

Don't know whether D. A. Carson was being referenced but his "Exegetical Fallacies" is well worth the read. 

Wesley

[David1701]

4 hours ago, Starise said:

I wasn't referencing the KJV although this passage is in it as well. Thanks for showing a deeper meaning to the terms. With respect to the subject matter I believe this subject is going to center on Biblical study which involves due diligence to text comparisons.

I need to access a few decent lexicons, preferably in digital form. Is Thayer's available online as a download? Thanks. 

 

Thayer's lexicon is available as a module for several Bible programmes, including free ones.  It is probably also available on Bible study Web sites. My favourite Bible software (free) is "the Word", which is a Windows programme, but it works in Linux, running under WINE (I use Linux).

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I think some people tend to be more analytical when reading the Bible while others just read it ask no questions, and move on. That isn't me. I seldom read very far in the  word until I've come across a question I need to answer. I suspect from reading this thread there are others who are the same. There is an answer for every question, but sometimes it's a placeholder answer such as, " One day the Lord will reveal it more clearly", or as I heard recently , " God lets us know all we need to know in these 66 books. If it isn't in there, we don't need to know it." I think the 66 books might be debatable, but I didn't let on. 66 books is adequate but I'm not convinced it was only 66 books in the beginning. 

Do you believe that God failed to preserve all of his word, for his Assembly? 

I know that a few other books are cited, in the Bible, but that does not mean that they were inspired.

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When it comes to this study, for me it wasn't guilty until proven innocent, it was a steep cliff to scale in order to sustain the argument. So far we haven't made it up 10 ft. yet there are concerns that would allow for a misunderstanding IMHO. Similar to maybe the different accounts of the resurrection we see in the first 4 gospels.

The accounts contain snapshots of time (e.g. one angel in the tomb, at one moment; but two angels at another moment) and selected details, but not always the same selected details, which absolutely does not mean that they disagree.

If they did disagree, then nothing in the Bible would be trustworthy.

It should be God's word that is innocent until proved guilty (and it won't be proved guilty!).  Its accusers, on the other hand, are calling God, who inspired the Bible, a liar.

Quote

You really have to analyze that and take other things into consideration to accept that it still fits. On the surface it doesn't fit. If you were a first time reader speed reading through the gospels you might begin to wonder.

I knew someone, many years ago, in Edinburgh (Scotland), who was caused to doubt the Bible, by Liberal teachers at university, who introduced exactly such accusations as you mentioned (different accounts of the resurrection events, for example).  He spoke with me about it and I prayed internally for wisdom - immediately, the word "snapshots" came to mind and I realised that the objection was trivial to refute.  He was not so sure ... and ended up doubting the Bible as a whole.  I warned him that this could lead to complete apostasy, to which he said, "I know.", with a sad and worried look on his face.

He started to discuss his doubts with others at the assembly he attended (a British Pentecostal denomination called "Elim").  They advised him that the Bible is the word of God and contains no errors or contradictions; but he persisted and they began to separate from him, as a heretic (I know all this because he told me himself).

Beware of the leaven of the Sadducees and Pharisees (and their modern equivalents).

Edited January 6, 2021 by David1701

[Starise]

9 hours ago, David1701 said:

Thayer's lexicon is available as a module for several Bible programmes, including free ones.  It is probably also available on Bible study Web sites. My favourite Bible software (free) is "the Word", which is a Windows programme, but it works in Linux, running under WINE (I use Linux).

I have a concordance but find it isn't always enough. A few of my Bibles have pretty extensive references built in. Sometimes though, they don't seem to be enough. Thanks.

9 hours ago, David1701 said:

Do you believe that God failed to preserve all of his word, for his Assembly? 

I know that a few other books are cited, in the Bible, but that does not mean that they were inspired.

On the first comment, I would say that enough of His word was preserved. All of the word that was necessary was preserved. If that seems like I'm uncertain I'm not going to lie. I am not certain that there weren't omissions. We could say God was in total control of the word. We could also say men have free will. Men make mistakes. Men have bias. Inspired men wrote the word. Translators and editors were not inspired.

I don't see all of the other associated books as inspired. Many are very helpful for additional study. 

9 hours ago, David1701 said:

The accounts contain snapshots of time (e.g. one angel in the tomb, at one moment; but two angels at another moment) and selected details, but not always the same selected details, which absolutely does not mean that they disagree.

If they did disagree, then nothing in the Bible would be trustworthy.

It should be God's word that is innocent until proved guilty (and it won't be proved guilty!).  Its accusers, on the other hand, are calling God, who inspired the Bible, a liar.

This is the way I eventually after some study came to see this as well.

One thing that can be healthy for a Christian in my opinion is to look at the sources of all doubts and refute them every one.

Here's a good link for anyone who wants to give it a go. I think most of it is pretty easy to refute. Who knows it might come in handy for a discussion some time.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html

Edited January 7, 2021 by Starise

[David1701]

9 hours ago, Starise said:

I have a concordance but find it isn't always enough. A few of my Bibles have pretty extensive references built in. Sometimes though, they don't seem to be enough. Thanks.

Lexicons and Bible dictionaries can be very helpful; although, it's important to realise that Greek and Hebrew words often have several meanings and that the correct meaning is determined by the context.

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On the first comment, I would say that enough of His word was preserved. All of the word that was necessary was preserved. If that seems like I'm uncertain I'm not going to lie. I am not certain that there weren't omissions. We could say God was in total control of the word. We could also say men have free will. Men make mistakes. Men have bias. Inspired men wrote the word. Translators and editors were not inspired.

What specific evidence do you have that some of the Bible is missing?  Not generalities about people making mistakes, but actual evidence.

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I don't see all of the other associated books as inspired. Many are very helpful for additional study. 

Some of them could be helpful; but test all things against the inspired word of God.

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One thing that can be healthy for a Christian in my opinion is to look at the sources of all doubts and refute them every one.

As long as God is leading you to do that, from a firm foundation of faith; otherwise, it's a very bad idea.