Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Charlie744]

10 minutes ago, Peterlag said:

We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ.

 

The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

 

The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ. The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real.

 

So what happens to the old self that was in Adam? The old self is entirely obliterated once a person is in Christ.

Thank you Peter! I really have no argument or disagreement with your thoughts! I may just be looking at things differently- perhaps. 

Most folks contend there are 3 parts of a man - body, Spirit AND soul. I find that Gen. 2:7 is quite clear and specific on the formula of man by God. He told us He tool earth and then breathed into man and THIS BECAME a living soul. 

Now some also contend there is BOTH a human spirit AND a (I guess) Holy Spirit in man. I don’t!

When God made / created / formed man He breathed HIS Spirit into man- He had no human spirit to impute into Adam. Adam was created a clean, sinless living soul. God could NEVER breath any part of Him into Adam that was NOT Holy- impossible! Now the combination of these two created a living soul who would feel, have emotions, sympathy, understanding, and all the abilities and attributes given to us by God, but He could ONLY breath into us His perfect nature. 

When we sinned we lost this Holy Spirit and could no longer be in His presence. We still had all the attributes and abilities given to us by God but no longer Holy - we disobeyed Him and sinned. 

God had to remove us from His presence or the Garden and has ensured we could never again return to that Holy place and be with Him as we once were. 

Consequently, God had to establish His Plan of Salvation to bring us back with Him- ONLY His way and His Plan can we get back.   Our one and only mission is to follow Him (His Plan) and get back to the Garden... and the ONLY way is to restore His Holy Spirit back into us - the one we lost in the Garden. How can we possibly accomplish this? Certainly not by works or any other earthly means.. only God can restore it in us, and that comes only from the Holy Spirit. When we accept Jesus as our Savior and invite the Holy Spirit back into our very being, we BEGIN to follow His One and ONLY Plan and path to return. When we accept the Holy Spirit we are once again being made in the way God originally created us. Only UNTIL we die and meet Him at His second coming, this Holy Spirit, although real in every sense of the word, is still on this side of Heaven. It is real but a shadow of the Spirit we will once again be given at His second coming. 

Also, this is an answer (I believe) to much of the confusion regarding a 3 part being (where some verses seem to speak clearly of the soul being the 3rd part). Paul speaks of this and includes the word “soul” along with the body and the spirit- hence, a 3 part. But what I believe Paul is telling us that this “soul” is now complete with the body and His Spirit. We are now restored to the “living soul” according to the formula of Gen. 2:7. 

We have never stopped being a “living soul”, that is while we are alive, but we have never regained our Holy Spirit given to us by God in the Garden. 

Hope some of this makes sense and sorry for the digression, Charlie 

 

 

[Peterlag]

19 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you Peter! I really have no argument or disagreement with your thoughts! I may just be looking at things differently- perhaps. 

Most folks contend there are 3 parts of a man - body, Spirit AND soul. I find that Gen. 2:7 is quite clear and specific on the formula of man by God. He told us He tool earth and then breathed into man and THIS BECAME a living soul. 

Now some also contend there is BOTH a human spirit AND a (I guess) Holy Spirit in man. I don’t!

When God made / created / formed man He breathed HIS Spirit into man- He had no human spirit to impute into Adam. Adam was created a clean, sinless living soul. God could NEVER breath any part of Him into Adam that was NOT Holy- impossible! Now the combination of these two created a living soul who would feel, have emotions, sympathy, understanding, and all the abilities and attributes given to us by God, but He could ONLY breath into us His perfect nature. 

When we sinned we lost this Holy Spirit and could no longer be in His presence. We still had all the attributes and abilities given to us by God but no longer Holy - we disobeyed Him and sinned. 

God had to remove us from His presence or the Garden and has ensured we could never again return to that Holy place and be with Him as we once were. 

Consequently, God had to establish His Plan of Salvation to bring us back with Him- ONLY His way and His Plan can we get back.   Our one and only mission is to follow Him (His Plan) and get back to the Garden... and the ONLY way is to restore His Holy Spirit back into us - the one we lost in the Garden. How can we possibly accomplish this? Certainly not by works or any other earthly means.. only God can restore it in us, and that comes only from the Holy Spirit. When we accept Jesus as our Savior and invite the Holy Spirit back into our very being, we BEGIN to follow His One and ONLY Plan and path to return. When we accept the Holy Spirit we are once again being made in the way God originally created us. Only UNTIL we die and meet Him at His second coming, this Holy Spirit, although real in every sense of the word, is still on this side of Heaven. It is real but a shadow of the Spirit we will once again be given at His second coming. 

Also, this is an answer (I believe) to much of the confusion regarding a 3 part being (where some verses seem to speak clearly of the soul being the 3rd part). Paul speaks of this and includes the word “soul” along with the body and the spirit- hence, a 3 part. But what I believe Paul is telling us that this “soul” is now complete with the body and His Spirit. We are now restored to the “living soul” according to the formula of Gen. 2:7. 

We have never stopped being a “living soul”, that is while we are alive, but we have never regained our Holy Spirit given to us by God in the Garden. 

Hope some of this makes sense and sorry for the digression, Charlie 

 

 

I like much of what you wrote above. Everyone of my teachers taught man is body, soul, and spirit. That is the Christian man. We know what the body is. The soul life is basically are breath life. That which makes the body alive. The spirit is what Christ got back for us. When the spirit came in it destroyed the old man nature that we had in Adam. We are now in Christ which is our new nature.

[Waggles]

6 hours ago, Peterlag said:

These different administrations are suited to different times because God has spoken everything to its proper time and administration. We will never understand the truth of God’s Word if we read into one administration what God tells us belongs to another administration.

Hebrews 13:8  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

[Waggles]

6 hours ago, Peterlag said:

What is written directly to the Jews, belongs to and is for the Jews. What is written directly to the Gentiles, belongs to and is for the Gentiles. What is written directly to the Church of God, belongs to and is for the Church of God.

1Corinthians 10:1  For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 
2  and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 
3  and all ate the same spiritual food, 
4  and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ. 
5  Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 
6  Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 
7  Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 
8  We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 
9  We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 
10  nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 
11  Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 
12  Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 

[Waggles]

6 hours ago, Peterlag said:

When we mix them all together, by jumbling the whole Bible together: Law, Gospel, Grace, Judgment, Glory, Jew, Gentile, and the Church of God, we will be very confused in our understanding of the truth of God’s Word.

I am not confused, no not at all. 

The indwelling Spirit of truth teaches me and opens my understanding to the scriptures. 

From Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21 the scriptures are consistent in doctrine.

[Frits]

7 hours ago, Peterlag said:

I learn a lot from the gospels but do not believe it was written to me. And I don't consider Revelation to be part of the Christian Bible. It deals mostly with Israel right down to the candle sticks and all such Jewish concepts.

Bro Peter,

I am a Christian just like you and I am very happy that the Book of Revelation was not written to an ethnic people in the MO, but especially to the Christians.

Op 1:11 KJV Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches ..'

[Waggles]

7 hours ago, Peterlag said:

From the sixth chapter of the book of Deuteronomy, it was written to those who lived under the Law administration, “it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the Lord our God, as he hath commanded us.” However, from the third chapter of the book of Romans, it's written to those who live in this present Grace administration, “by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight.”

A way bit too simple. The Law is never done away with. The Law was transferred from applying to the nation of Israel with the Levitical priesthood and Temple worship (with animal sacrifices) over to circumcision of the heart wherein the Law is within us so that we can fullfil the Law in our walk in the Spirit. 

Psalm 40:6  In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. 
7  Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me: 
8  I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.” 

Jeremiah 31:33  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 
34  And no longer shall each one teach his neighbour and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” 

2Corinthians 3:3  And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Waggles

[Frits]

3 hours ago, Peterlag said:

The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.

This great miracle, this special wisdom and justice, this all-surpassing grace and love of God the Father, was expressed by the Lord Jesus Himself when He allowed himself to be immersed in the waters of the Jordan.

And He then said:

'Mat 3:15 KJV And Jesus answering ..: 'for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness.'

[Guest clancy]

Without the Holy Spirit, leading us through scripture, I wouldn’t have a clue what it means, even now,I don’t understand everything, only God can open up the scriptures to us...

 

[Regenerated-Adult]

14 hours ago, Waggles said:

Because it is wrong.

Jesus is referring to water baptism. Jesus is not saying unless a man is born and alive then he must be born again.

Obviously it goes without saying that only living people can repent and believe in Jesus as their Saviour.

water baptism and Holy Spirit baptism go together and are referred to later in the NT as one baptism > one way of doing things > one faith

Cherry picking what I said won't cut it.  You are the one that has to explain what "flesh is born of the flesh and spirit of the spirit" in context.  Don't avoid this, don't evade.  Explain what it means as you see it.