No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[grumix8]

rapture is not what t.v. or popular preachers say, it's going to happen like the bible says and people won't pop up and just disappear.

[iamlamad]

On 2/3/2021 at 11:44 PM, R. Hartono said:

Prophet Daniel was promised of his inheritance (heaven) at the end of days, there is no taking of his soul by Jesus at His 3rd day resurrection, as the end of days will begin with the return of Jesus Christ far away in the future unknown to Daniel.

Daniel 12:13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will RISE to receive your allotted inheritance."

When will Daniel RISE ? Its explained by Paul in 1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will RISE first. ¹⁷ Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds

Jesus told the prisoner crucified beside Him that he shall be with Christ to enter paradise part of sheol (not heaven), the place where the poor Lazarus is comforted in Abraham's bosom.

Luke 23:43 : “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise. (greek : paradeiso)

When Lord Jesus open the scroll circa 90 AD in heaven above (not in paradise) the souls of the saints are still under the earth

Rev. 5:3 ³ But no one in heaven or on earth or UNDER THE EARTH (paradise part of Sheol) could open the scroll.....

Some take conclusion that when Jesus was resurrected He also took the souls of saints from Sheol/Paradise based on this verse :

Ephesians 4:8 This is why it says: “When He ascended on high, He led captives away, and gave gifts to men.”

But captives here means the captivity of sins being broken by the praching of Gospel by Jesus as He confirmed it in Luke 4:18 ....to preach deliverance to the CAPTIVES.......

Thats why its followed by "and gave gifts to men" for the preaching of Gospel as God gave gifts to build up His church in  1 Peter 4:10  As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another as good stewards of the manifold grace of God, also 1 Cor 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

The souls descended into paradeiso is no longer in captivity of sin but they have been freed and awaiting the day of the Lord with the sound of Trumpet at the end of days. Paradeiso is the place of comfort and only the souls of good people entered it and are rewarded.

Apostles and angels were only witnessing Jesus raised to heaven, not carrying the resurrected saints from paradise with Him.

Acts 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”

The holy people who were raised after Jesus resurrection were not taken with Jesus Christ otherwise it shall be written by the apostles who witnessed His ascension, they were probably be buried again after being used by God to show His power and the same with prophet Daniel they are now resting until the end of days for the sound of Trumpet to the mighty celebration of the glorious Feast of the Lamb, otherwise they wud see Abraham, Daniel, Joshua, Samuel, Elias etc departed to heaven with Jesus.

Matt 27:52 The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. ⁵³ They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people

Jesus spoke about all souls of saints in paradise whose bodies are still in their graves, they are waiting there n  will listen to His voice when the time is due in the end of days.

John 5:28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice

As Paul said it, paradise is not the destination place for captivity but of victory.                             

2 Tim 4:7  I hv fought a good fight, i hv finished the race.....             

Yet all saints must wait a little while in the beautiful paradise until Lord is revealed from heaven (the harvest) :

2 Thes 1:5... and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. ....this will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.              

This is about the Harvest, there is no individual soul harvested to heaven but the mass harvest taken to heaven at the end of times (1 Thes 4:16)

Matt 13:³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest...........               

                 

Of course you know this is against most church creeds and doctrines, and denies Paul's scripture: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And it is also against the MANY people who have been to heaven and came back to testify. 

Why teach something that goes against most church creeds and doctrines?

[Charlie744]

I believe Paul is telling us that he would RATHER be with absent from the body and present with the Lord.......  completely different and misinterpreted by so many...... 

Further above someone mentioned the thief on the cross as being told by Christ that he would be with Him in paradise TODAY..... HOWEVER, Jesus HIMSELF was in the grave for 3 days / nights and was not in paradise HIMSELF. This is an issue where the comma (which is not within the Scriptures) is placed before the word "today" .... If there was a coma in the Scriptures it would be placed AFTER the word TODAY.... WHY, because there are so many Scriptural references in the OT that have already spoken of what happens after death, for example, "the dead know nothing", "the dead are asleep", on and on......

Charlle

[Charlie744]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Of course you know this is against most church creeds and doctrines, and denies Paul's scripture: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. And it is also against the MANY people who have been to heaven and came back to testify. 

Why teach something that goes against most church creeds and doctrines?

Unfortunately, MOST people believe what they have been taught from a young age. Why do so many hundreds of millions believe in Islam or Buddha or Hishew (whatever is name is).... Why do at least 1.3 B Catholics and at least another 1.B protestants believe in a Sunday worship day WHEN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ITSELF HAS CLEARLY DETERMINED THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT ALLOWS FOR OR SPEAKS TO A SUNDAY DAY OR WORSHIP FROM THE SABBATH?

That particular doctrine was instituted by Constantine in or around 300 BC and was a strategy to accommodate and bring aboard ALL the pagans into Christianity.......  the "sun" day of the pagans AND other pagan practices such as idols, was an important part of their pagan religion and most new Christians of that time (non-Jewish converts) were very familiar with this and simply accepted this into their new Christian religion. 

So, there are SO MANY creeds, doctrines, practices and TRADITIONS created by man over the past 2000 years and more that have been incorporated into Christianity.  After hundreds of years and passing them on to their children and their children's children and so on they become "gospel"  --- and they are NOT. 

So, read and think for yourself ...... ask the ONLY ONE, the HOLY SPIRIT capable of teaching us the truth to reveal and understand HIS Word - come out of Babylon!

In Daniel we read where he "little horn" will think to change times and laws"....... the ONLY way we have missed this (largely) is because the "little horn" (RCC), is the one who has changed the Sabbath and has dominated the Church for some 1700 years....... "who can fight with him"?  

We can easily learn from our teachers ..... and this will continue for generations....... does not mean it is Scriptural! It is SO difficult for man to change his opinion or things he has been taught since an early age.  Think of it....... for me, it would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for someone to get me to believe in Mohammed or Buddha....I would not give them 3 seconds of my time..... well, it is the same WITHIN ALL THE CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS!  We are more than lucky though, we have the HOLY SPIRIT WHO will prevent us from failure ---- the ONLY problem is we do not call on HIM --- we are all sure we have the correct interpretation of the Scriptures - that alone within the Christian world should tell us there is something very wrong here.... God wants us to open our heart to HIM, seek HIM, turn ourselves completely over to HIM, allow HIM to drive....... this also means the understanding of HIS Word - open our minds and ask HIM to understand HIS Word.... so difficult for us to do this ... Charlie

 

[Revelation Man]

On 2/4/2021 at 12:46 PM, missmuffet said:

Are you promoting soul sleep? Are you saying all souls do not go immediately to heaven or hades after they die?

God doesn't change sister. Jesus pointed out that the souls of those in Abrahams bosom waited to be judged and there was a great gulf between them and the wicked men's souls. The thief was to be with Jesus in paradise on that very day (Good Friday) but not in Heaven, Paradise is Abrahams Bosom, or a holding place for souls.

1 Cor. 15 is real clear on this subject if one puts it all together. Most people start with verse 50, but we need to start with verse 42.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Corruption = Sin Flesh

Incorruption = Spirit Man

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (Sin Flesh = Corruption here and incorruption here stands for Heaven, that which is being INHERITED, only an incorruptible Spirit Man can inherit an incorruptible heaven.)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (Paul says we SLEEP, except those alive when Jesus returns), but we shall all be changed (meaning we die and are changed from a Sin Flesh to a Spirit Man which NEER SLEEPS but goes straight to Heaven),

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (Without Sin Flesh), and we shall be changed(From humans with CORRUPTBLE Sin Flesh, to Spirit Men who can thus go to Heaven INCORRRUPTIBLE, just like those raised without Corruption, or with no Sin Flesh).

53 For THIS corruptible(Sin Flesh) must put on incorruption(The Spirit Man. meaning WE DIE), and this mortal must put on immortality.(Our flesh man is left behind, we go to Heaven  as Spirit men, then receive our Glorious bodies after Judgment.)

54 So when THIS corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Why does Paul sat we shall not all sleep when talking about the Raptured who are alive? Because ALL the other who die before the Rapture are SLEEPING, that is al it can mean sister. No one goes to Heaven, God is going to have continual judgments every time some one dies. Daniel is told that the righteous will be raised at the VERY END in Daniel 12:1-3. 

People who dream or see visions of loved ones in Heaven are seeing into the future, just like Paul did in the book of Revelation. 

1 Cor. 15 is pretty clear on this tbh.

[iamlamad]

3 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Unfortunately, MOST people believe what they have been taught from a young age. Why do so many hundreds of millions believe in Islam or Buddha or Hishew (whatever is name is).... Why do at least 1.3 B Catholics and at least another 1.B protestants believe in a Sunday worship day WHEN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ITSELF HAS CLEARLY DETERMINED THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT ALLOWS FOR OR SPEAKS TO A SUNDAY DAY OR WORSHIP FROM THE SABBATH?

That particular doctrine was instituted by Constantine in or around 300 BC and was a strategy to accommodate and bring aboard ALL the pagans into Christianity.......  the "sun" day of the pagans AND other pagan practices such as idols, was an important part of their pagan religion and most new Christians of that time (non-Jewish converts) were very familiar with this and simply accepted this into their new Christian religion. 

So, there are SO MANY creeds, doctrines, practices and TRADITIONS created by man over the past 2000 years and more that have been incorporated into Christianity.  After hundreds of years and passing them on to their children and their children's children and so on they become "gospel"  --- and they are NOT. 

So, read and think for yourself ...... ask the ONLY ONE, the HOLY SPIRIT capable of teaching us the truth to reveal and understand HIS Word - come out of Babylon!

In Daniel we read where he "little horn" will think to change times and laws"....... the ONLY way we have missed this (largely) is because the "little horn" (RCC), is the one who has changed the Sabbath and has dominated the Church for some 1700 years....... "who can fight with him"?  

We can easily learn from our teachers ..... and this will continue for generations....... does not mean it is Scriptural! It is SO difficult for man to change his opinion or things he has been taught since an early age.  Think of it....... for me, it would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for someone to get me to believe in Mohammed or Buddha....I would not give them 3 seconds of my time..... well, it is the same WITHIN ALL THE CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS!  We are more than lucky though, we have the HOLY SPIRIT WHO will prevent us from failure ---- the ONLY problem is we do not call on HIM --- we are all sure we have the correct interpretation of the Scriptures - that alone within the Christian world should tell us there is something very wrong here.... God wants us to open our heart to HIM, seek HIM, turn ourselves completely over to HIM, allow HIM to drive....... this also means the understanding of HIS Word - open our minds and ask HIM to understand HIS Word.... so difficult for us to do this ... Charlie

 

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.....the proverbial "can of worms" has just been opened. 

Acts 20:7  And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Just think: this has been written long before Hiram Edson, Ellen G. White, or her husband James Springer White were born. How amazing they came together on a Sunday, not a Saturday. As for the Holy Spirit - when the early church received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues. Millions of believers today pray in tongues. But how many believers who worship on Saturday pray in tongues? How many believers who believe they must come together on Saturday believe like Paul and could ask "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

 

AS for the verse in Daniel of "changing times and laws," we cannot pull that verse out of it's context. WHO does this? The same "man of sin" Paul told us will enter the temple (a new temple not yet built) and declare he is GOD. John tells us this will happen during the future 70th week of Daniel, and will be the very same event that will divide the week into two 3 1/2 year periods of time. 

 

²⁵ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

We can't pull the "wearing out the saints" and the "changing of times and laws," from that 3 1/2 years.  This is speaking of a time in our future, so in truth has nothing to do with Constantine, nor the day most church folks attend their meetings.  Just so you know, that 3 1/2 years cannot come until the departing of the church (the restrainer taken out of the way) first. Since the church is still here, this time is still in our future.

 

 

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

God doesn't change sister. Jesus pointed out that the souls of those in Abrahams bosom waited to be judged and there was a great gulf between them and the wicked men's souls. The thief was to be with Jesus in paradise on that very day (Good Friday) but not in Heaven, Paradise is Abrahams Bosom, or a holding place for souls.

1 Cor. 15 is real clear on this subject if one puts it all together. Most people start with verse 50, but we need to start with verse 42.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Corruption = Sin Flesh

Incorruption = Spirit Man

1 Cor. 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (Sin Flesh = Corruption here and incorruption here stands for Heaven, that which is being INHERITED, only an incorruptible Spirit Man can inherit an incorruptible heaven.)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep (Paul says we SLEEP, except those alive when Jesus returns), but we shall all be changed (meaning we die and are changed from a Sin Flesh to a Spirit Man which NEER SLEEPS but goes straight to Heaven),

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (Without Sin Flesh), and we shall be changed(From humans with CORRUPTBLE Sin Flesh, to Spirit Men who can thus go to Heaven INCORRRUPTIBLE, just like those raised without Corruption, or with no Sin Flesh).

53 For THIS corruptible(Sin Flesh) must put on incorruption(The Spirit Man. meaning WE DIE), and this mortal must put on immortality.(Our flesh man is left behind, we go to Heaven  as Spirit men, then receive our Glorious bodies after Judgment.)

54 So when THIS corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Why does Paul sat we shall not all sleep when talking about the Raptured who are alive? Because ALL the other who die before the Rapture are SLEEPING, that is al it can mean sister. No one goes to Heaven, God is going to have continual judgments every time some one dies. Daniel is told that the righteous will be raised at the VERY END in Daniel 12:1-3. 

People who dream or see visions of loved ones in Heaven are seeing into the future, just like Paul did in the book of Revelation. 

1 Cor. 15 is pretty clear on this tbh.

This is pretty much myth.

We ARE a spirit being. Our spirit being possesses a soul, which includes our mind, will, and emotions. We live for now in a flesh and blood body, but after the resurrection will live in a flesh and bone body  - a resurrection body like Jesus had.

When a human dies, their spirit and soul slip out of the physical body and are taken either to hell or to heaven: GOD sends them to the place they have chosen by their lifestyle. Note carefully, when the human spirit leaves the body, they are then body-LESS. It is in that body-less form that they go to either heaven or hell. If someone could see into the realm of the spirit, human spirits could be SEEN and would appear very much like their looked like in the flesh.

Spirit man: the human spirit or the "inward man" as Paul called it. It will live as long as God lives.
Human body: a flesh and blood body with the life in the blood. It is appointed to die.
Resurrection body: a flesh and bone body that can be touched but can walk through walls and will never die.
Human being: a spirit being living temporarily in a flesh and blood house or body that will die.

When Paul wrote, "we shall not all sleep..." he was calling physical death as sleep - just what Jesus said about Lazarus. All will NOT die a physical death, because when the Lord comes, some will be changed into an immortal body that will never die. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by iamlamad

[Charlie744]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.....the proverbial "can of worms" has just been opened. 

Acts 20:7  And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Just think: this has been written long before Hiram Edson, Ellen G. White, or her husband James Springer White were born. How amazing they came together on a Sunday, not a Saturday. As for the Holy Spirit - when the early church received the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues. Millions of believers today pray in tongues. But how many believers who worship on Saturday pray in tongues? How many believers who believe they must come together on Saturday believe like Paul and could ask "Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?"

 

AS for the verse in Daniel of "changing times and laws," we cannot pull that verse out of it's context. WHO does this? The same "man of sin" Paul told us will enter the temple (a new temple not yet built) and declare he is GOD. John tells us this will happen during the future 70th week of Daniel, and will be the very same event that will divide the week into two 3 1/2 year periods of time. 

 

²⁵ And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

We can't pull the "wearing out the saints" and the "changing of times and laws," from that 3 1/2 years.  This is speaking of a time in our future, so in truth has nothing to do with Constantine, nor the day most church folks attend their meetings.  Just so you know, that 3 1/2 years cannot come until the departing of the church (the restrainer taken out of the way) first. Since the church is still here, this time is still in our future.

 

 

First, it is ALWAYS nice to hear from you again... been some time!

BUT, we seem to disagree on so many issues... not a bad thing but a “thing”.

As with my response earlier there is a combination of Daniel, Revelation, writings from Paul, doctrines originating from Constantine, the papacy, the RCC (little horn), and perhaps others! This would take centuries to unpack and then we will most likely still be right back here where we started.. 

So, would request you pick just one of these issues to discuss and we can try to focus our energy it ... there is a lot of Daniel in your response... 

Personally, the Sunday v Sabbath discussion has been addressed a million times and as I mentioned, EVEN the RCC categorically states there is nothing in the Scriptures (NT) calling for a change to Sunday.. so please select something else. 

Best wishes, Charlie 

[iamlamad]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:53 PM, AND IN THIS CORNER said:

does it say their in heaven?  for sure the dead have to brought from somewhere but it doesn't say they were in heaven

It says Jesus will bring them WITH Him...which hints strongly that they are with Him now - exactly what Paul tells us: absent from our body is present with the Lord. He is in heaven.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

First, it is ALWAYS nice to hear from you again... been some time!

BUT, we seem to disagree on so many issues... not a bad thing but a “thing”.

As with my response earlier there is a combination of Daniel, Revelation, writings from Paul, doctrines originating from Constantine, the papacy, the RCC (little horn), and perhaps others! This would take centuries to unpack and then we will most likely still be right back here where we started.. 

So, would request you pick just one of these issues to discuss and we can try to focus our energy it ... there is a lot of Daniel in your response... 

Personally, the Sunday v Sabbath discussion has been addressed a million times and as I mentioned, EVEN the RCC categorically states there is nothing in the Scriptures (NT) calling for a change to Sunday.. so please select something else. 

Best wishes, Charlie 

How nice to hear: that it is nice to be heard from! Thanks. A "can of worms" does indeed take a lot of "unpacking." We agree. No, sorry. I don't want to get into another long disagreement. I may just disappear again!