No saints are in heaven now until the rapture.

[R. Hartono]

26 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi R. Hartono,

Have you considered these scri

For - `God will bring with Him, (Christ) those who sleep in Jesus..` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

There we see that the Lord will bring with Him those who sleep in Him, and they will go into the earth and then be resurrected in their new bodies. Then they rise to meet the Lord in the air with those who are still alive, and are caught away.

Amen.

Edited February 21, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Mary8]

16 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

If the dying of the flesh body makes alive the spirit body,  and you say only the 'spirit' goes on to heaven, then where is that spirit body till the Lord returns? 


that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die 
SO once the flesh dies, SOME BODY is made alive.  Now, I personally do not see a separation of time here. 

But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen 
I also believe that Christ can not rise without all those who have died rising. (l liken it to the 'law of gravity'.  God works through laws.  

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
Once again, it is sown, it is raised.  Where is this TIME span found written?

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
AGAIN, IT is written without any mention of a 'time in between'

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
AND there are two bodies

...and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
THAT SLEPT, is past tense (as I see it)

And this always gets me, 

 

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;


Revelation 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Revelation 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Now maybe you can understand my confusion on this subject, in which I seem to stand with a tiny number, by believing that GOD gave us the two bodies and in one or the other we shall always be.  

Many say "just the soul/spirit" goes on then when Christ returns something happens and they go get their old body which is made into a new one at that time or something like that and then I guess they raise back up and then maybe the wrath of God is poured out and I wont even get to those who have been vaporized, or cremated (do they all go to a cremation part of the world for theirs?)   What about those who died in SPACE?  i stop.  

but what I can't figure out and no body seems to be able to tell is WHY?  Why don't we immediately use the body, the celestial body, the heavenly body GOD gave us AS SOON as it is needed?  Why wouldn't God just have us raise in that body?  Do some raise in the body like the 'fellow servant' but others not?  Doesn't that seem to put alot happening when Christ returns when it would just be so natural to have it done automatically upon death of the flesh and not when those who have taken the mark of the beast have to be dealt with and right after that those who are alive and remaining and who is it those who are alive and remaining meet in the air if everyone is out looking for their 'body that needs to be resurrected?.  

I know this is alot of questions and you don't have to answer a single one.  I am just hoping someone can tell me WHERE this belief comes from and what is the purpose of it.  It just seems to be so confusing and chaotic and UN necessary when such a simple solution is just right there.  We go to be with the Lord, He brings us back, those who are alive and remain are changed and meet us in the air.  

And, this maybe isn't the time or place but then again MAYBE,  just maybe it is.  

(I figured it out cause I was thinking this is alot for someone I have not chatted with before but I think you are the first person who has acknowledged there was a CHANGE between the before and after of CHRISTS WORK.  So maybe it is.)  

  

That was all from the article about "Eternity..."    I hope it may be useful, but some of it I may not understand or agree with. 

I believe I've seen some commentators indicate that paradise was emptied when Christ ascended.   

I do believe those of us who are raptured will get a new body and be with Christ.  The dead in Christ will get a new body.

These notes in my other response I felt helped clear this all up for me:

 Phillipians 1:   to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;”

 

2 Cor. 5:6-8. “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

So I believe that when we die we go to be with the Lord.   The dead in Christ are with Him in heaven.      

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Mary8 said:

That was all from the article about "Eternity..."    I hope it may be useful, but some of it I may not understand or agree with. 

I believe I've seen some commentators indicate that paradise was emptied when Christ ascended.   

I do believe those of us who are raptured will get a new body and be with Christ.  The dead in Christ will get a new body.

These notes in my other response I felt helped clear this all up for me:

 Phillipians 1:   to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;”

 

2 Cor. 5:6-8. “Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.”

So I believe that when we die we go to be with the Lord.   The dead in Christ are with Him in heaven.      

Mary, you hi-lites “absent from.... with the Lord”. Why did you leave the word “rather”? Paul was not telling us we will be with Him after death but he would RATHER be with the Lord... 

Charlie

[Charlie744]

33 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Hi, Charlie... but also consider this:

Ecclesiastes 12:1-7

12 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

2 While the sun, or the light, or the moon, or the stars, be not darkened, nor the clouds return after the rain:

3 In the day when the keepers of the house shall tremble, and the strong men shall bow themselves, and the grinders cease because they are few, and those that look out of the windows be darkened,

4 And the doors shall be shut in the streets, when the sound of the grinding is low, and he shall rise up at the voice of the bird, and all the daughters of musick shall be brought low;

5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

Thank you SONshine, and please note the following in response to "and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it":

When we die, “then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
It is this spirit that is popularly believed to be conscious, but does the Bible support that view?

Genesis 2:7 tells us that when God first made Adam, He used two components: “the dust of the ground” and the “breath of life”.
When our Creator combined those two elements, they “became a living soul”- a living, breathing person.
The miraculous process just described is called creation, and the opposite process is called death.
Note how the Bible shows the terms “spirit” and “breath” to be synonymous, equivalent terms:
“You send forth Your Spirit, they are created….. You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust” (Psalm 104:30, 29).
“The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Job 33:4).
“If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust” (Job 34:14).

Keep in mind two obvious facts about our breath or spirit:

First, our breath/spirit does not exist apart from our body. Take away our body and lungs, and we stop breathing.
Second, our breath/spirit is not the conscious part of us that thinks. Our brain does that.
Remember the creation equation DUST + BREATH = LIVING SOUL?
When this combination is broken, when there is separation, there is no living soul, no conscious being.

Those who believe that humans are naturally immortal or have immortal souls need to remember where God’s spirit or breath is in each one of us.
I am alive “all the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3, KJV).
That is where our Creator placed it in the beginning. “The Lord God formed man… and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” (Genesis 2:7).
We should understand that this “breath of life” is more than just air. It’s the life-giving power of God! Hospital emergency rooms don’t have it.
When we die, or “breathe our last” and expire, God takes this life-giving power back to Himself.
But that power is abstract, it is not a conscious being.

Read the wise man Solomon’s inspired description: “The [at death] dust will return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [breath] will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
At least three points should be observed about this verse:

There is no implication that man’s breath is the same as his personality or “essence” – “the man himself.” On the contrary, the Bible here uses the neuter pronoun “it”. Remember that when Jesus died He committed His spirit (pneuma) into His Father’s hands (see Luke 23:46).
If the body were a mere shell and the spirit “the real man” how strange that “three days” later Christ explicitly declared: “I have not yet ascended to my Father?” (John 20:17).
Those who teach that the spirit is the “very essence” (or conscious person) contradict Christ and by claiming that He had ascended to His Father on Friday afternoon (when He died)!
However, we must believe Christ’s words and conclude that the spirit (pneuma), which leaves the body at death, is not “the real man” or conscious being.
Also, there is no implication (and biblical evidence) that man’s breath or spirit is a conscious entity.

Since Solomon says the dust returns to earth “as it was”, we can assume that the breath or spirit also returns to God the same “as it was’ before.
Adam’s breath was not conscious before God created him and breathed it into his nostrils, so why should we assume that it is conscious after his death?

Finally, the Bible’s description of death provides no comfort to those holding the traditional view of conscious, immortal souls ascending to God at death. For it makes no distinction between good men and bad men.

It says the spirits (breaths) of all the dead, both the righteous and the wicked, go back to God at the moment of death. Everyone!

For Bible-believing Christians, their great hope is the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming of Christ. Before that the dead remain dead and unconscious, unaware of anything on earth and in heaven.

Thanks SONshine, Charlie

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

 

Thank you SONshine, and please note the following in response to "and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it":

When we die, “then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
It is this spirit that is popularly believed to be conscious, but does the Bible support that view?

Genesis 2:7 tells us that when God first made Adam, He used two components: “the dust of the ground” and the “breath of life”.
When our Creator combined those two elements, they “became a living soul”- a living, breathing person.
The miraculous process just described is called creation, and the opposite process is called death.
Note how the Bible shows the terms “spirit” and “breath” to be synonymous, equivalent terms:
“You send forth Your Spirit, they are created….. You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust” (Psalm 104:30, 29).
“The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Job 33:4).
“If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust” (Job 34:14).

Keep in mind two obvious facts about our breath or spirit:

First, our breath/spirit does not exist apart from our body. Take away our body and lungs, and we stop breathing.
Second, our breath/spirit is not the conscious part of us that thinks. Our brain does that.
Remember the creation equation DUST + BREATH = LIVING SOUL?
When this combination is broken, when there is separation, there is no living soul, no conscious being.

Those who believe that humans are naturally immortal or have immortal souls need to remember where God’s spirit or breath is in each one of us.
I am alive “all the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils” (Job 27:3, KJV).
That is where our Creator placed it in the beginning. “The Lord God formed man… and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” (Genesis 2:7).
We should understand that this “breath of life” is more than just air. It’s the life-giving power of God! Hospital emergency rooms don’t have it.
When we die, or “breathe our last” and expire, God takes this life-giving power back to Himself.
But that power is abstract, it is not a conscious being.

Read the wise man Solomon’s inspired description: “The [at death] dust will return to the earth as it was: and the spirit [breath] will return to God who gave it” (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
At least three points should be observed about this verse:

There is no implication that man’s breath is the same as his personality or “essence” – “the man himself.” On the contrary, the Bible here uses the neuter pronoun “it”. Remember that when Jesus died He committed His spirit (pneuma) into His Father’s hands (see Luke 23:46).
If the body were a mere shell and the spirit “the real man” how strange that “three days” later Christ explicitly declared: “I have not yet ascended to my Father?” (John 20:17).
Those who teach that the spirit is the “very essence” (or conscious person) contradict Christ and by claiming that He had ascended to His Father on Friday afternoon (when He died)!
However, we must believe Christ’s words and conclude that the spirit (pneuma), which leaves the body at death, is not “the real man” or conscious being.
Also, there is no implication (and biblical evidence) that man’s breath or spirit is a conscious entity.

Since Solomon says the dust returns to earth “as it was”, we can assume that the breath or spirit also returns to God the same “as it was’ before.
Adam’s breath was not conscious before God created him and breathed it into his nostrils, so why should we assume that it is conscious after his death?

Finally, the Bible’s description of death provides no comfort to those holding the traditional view of conscious, immortal souls ascending to God at death. For it makes no distinction between good men and bad men.

It says the spirits (breaths) of all the dead, both the righteous and the wicked, go back to God at the moment of death. Everyone!

For Bible-believing Christians, their great hope is the resurrection of the righteous at the second coming of Christ. Before that the dead remain dead and unconscious, unaware of anything on earth and in heaven.

Thanks SONshine, Charlie

 

This is what comes when we take 'a part' of the TRUTH, then try and make 'that part' of the truth a truth of it's own. It just doesn't remain GODS TRUTH.  It HAS BEEN TWISTED, MADE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT GOD GAVE US.  

He tells us there are TWO bodies. One dies MAKING THE OTHER alive.  

WE absolutely know WE go to HEAVEN, to the place Christ went to prepare for us.  Or else He could not have told us that.  

Today you will be with me...said to the thief, wasn't 2000 years from then.  

Since it takes a 'body' to be alive and the flesh one has died and the spiritual one has been made alive there is NO WAY to leave the spiritual one behind.  

 

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, AND TO EVERY SEED HIS OWN BODY. 

That right there tells us that all we need to know.  So the real question is 'does what you say render a 'seed' with or without a body?  If 'no body' then how can that be GODS TRUTH?

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

This is what comes when we take 'a part' of the TRUTH, then try and make 'that part' of the truth a truth of it's own. It just doesn't remain GODS TRUTH.  It HAS BEEN TWISTED, MADE DIFFERENT FROM WHAT GOD GAVE US.  

He tells us there are TWO bodies. One dies MAKING THE OTHER alive.  

WE absolutely know WE go to HEAVEN, to the place Christ went to prepare for us.  Or else He could not have told us that.  

Today you will be with me...said to the thief, wasn't 2000 years from then.  

Since it takes a 'body' to be alive and the flesh one has died and the spiritual one has been made alive there is NO WAY to leave the spiritual one behind.  

 

1Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, AND TO EVERY SEED HIS OWN BODY. 

That right there tells us that all we need to know.  So the real question is 'does what you say render a 'seed' with or without a body?  If 'no body' then how can that be GODS TRUTH?

I have got a strong feeling we will not agree on this topic.

By the way, Jesus did tell the thief on the cross he would be with Him... but NOT TODAY... He told him TODAY I tell you that you will be with ME in paradise... much different since Jesus Himself said 3 days later for Mary not to touch Him as He has yet to go to the Father... 

Charlie

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Well, so what about the parable of the rich man? 

Luke 16:22 "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Lazarus was carried into heaven by the angels of God, while the rich man's body was buried in the ground and his soul went to Hades, the holding place before being destroyed by hell fire.

Luke 16:23 "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

So the rich man could see Lazarus in heaven with Abraham. He could look across that great gulf that stood between them but could not go there.  Thus to be absent from this physical body of the flesh is to be present with the Lord. The soul does not go to the grave as the flesh does, but goes immediately to heaven.

SONshine, you are correct in that this IS JUST A PARABLE and not an actual story. 

It is meant to tell us a few things but the primary focus is there is no second chances after death... we have made our choices about God - our fate is sealed. 

Charlie

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Heyyyyy.... you changed subject on me.  Perhaps we’ll just agree to disagree?  

If my response did not follow your topic I certainly apologize but I thought you were offering the Lazarus parable to support your position that we are aware after death and will immediately go to either heaven or hell... did I understand this correctly?

Charlie

[Charlie744]

Just now, SONshine said:

Yes.

Ok and great... so my response to your post was that the Lazarus parable is not a true event but used by Jesus to tell us we can not change our position after death but it is not meant to confirm or mean we are alive in spirit after death... Charlie

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Ah!  Nope, I don’t agree.    
 

No problem... everyone is entitled to their own position...... Charlie