The saints (wise virgins) shall be snatched to the cloud means Jesus has not returned yet.

[R. Hartono]

15 hours ago, Walter Goraj jr said:

Mr. Hartono, before we can really continue the exchange, could you kindly respond to the verses I offered?

The message of pre trib rapture is explained in the story of ten virgins thats why i offered u the song.

The wise virgins r taken to the Feast of the Lamb (the saints shall be snatched to the cloud means Jesus has not returned yet) but the foolish are left behind n the door was shut no matter how they beg.

Better cry now than cry later in the great tribulation which come as a SNARE to the world. 

Doesnt this mean anything :

Luke 21:35 for as a SNARE shall it comes on all.......

The verse show that the world is not aware of the Great Tribulation when the rapture takes place n then the great tribilation befalls them, how can it means a post trib rapture ? This world shall be eating n drinking n married n marrying n destroying n building.....when the Snare trap them all, but not the wise virgins.

Lets just wait n see. Not forcing u to believe me.

Peace.

Edited March 16, 2021 by R. Hartono

[Retrobyter]

On 3/13/2021 at 3:08 PM, DeighAnn said:

He didn't sleep but for a second.  He was UP AND RENDING THE VEIL, the graves were opening, He descended and was preaching.  

Shalom, DeighAnn.

Oh, no. He DID "sleep!" It wasn't He who tore the veil from the top to the bottom! It was His FATHER who tore it! The resurrections of the multiple saints and the graves were opened at His death, but the graves weren't emptied until AFTER His Resurrection!

Matthew 27:45-54 (KJV)

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying,

"Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?"

that is to say,

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said,

"This man calleth for Elias!" 

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a sponge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink. 49 The rest said,

"Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him."

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost (yielded up His last breath). 51 And, behold, THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWAIN (RIPPED IN TWO) FROM THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying,

"Truly this was the Son of God!"

Here's verses 51 through 53 in Greek (transliterated):

51 Kai idou to katapetasma tou naou eschisthee ap' anoothen heoos katoo eis duo, kai hee gee eseisthee, kai hai petrai eschistheesan,
52 kai ta mneemeia aneoochtheesan kai polla soomata toon kekoimeemenoon hagioo eegertheesan:
53 kai exelthontes ek toon mneemeioon meta teen egersin autou eiseelthon eis teen hagian polin kai enefanistheesan pollois.

51 Kai = 51 And/Also
idou = look!
to = the
katapetasma = veil
tou = of-the
naou = Temple
eschisthee = was-ripped-in-half
ap' (apo) = away-from
anoothen = top
heoos = to
katoo = bottom
eis = into
duo, = two,
kai = and/also
hee = the
gee = earth/ground/land
eseisthee, = did-quake/was-shaken,
kai = and/also
hai = the
petrai = rocks
eschistheesan, = were-split-in-half
52 kai = 52 and/also
ta = the
mneemeia = tombs/memorials
aneoochtheesan = were-opened
kai = and
polla = many
soomata = bodies
toon = of-the
kekoimeemenoon = sleepers
hagioo = holy/sanctified
eegertheesan: = were-awakened:
53 kai = 53 and/also
exelthontes = having-gone-forth
ek = out
toon = of-the
mneemeioon = tombs/memorials
meta = after
teen = the
egersin = awakening
autou = of-Him
eiseelthon = they-entered
eis = into
teen = the
hagian = holy/sanctified
polin = city
kai = and/also
enefanistheesan = appeared(-in-person)/were-revealed
pollois. = to-many.

No, Yeshua` was WAKENED AFTER the three days and three nights.

When you said, " He descended and was preaching," that's a FABRICATION! The Scriptures do NOT teach that! (More on that later, if you want.)

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What was accomplished by Christs death and resurrection for US in relation to the 'body'?  Or are the 'dead' under grace treated the exact same as the dead under the law?  

If one was 'perfect' under the law HOW WAS their death and dying any different from those [who] weren't?  

WHAT, in your belief is THE DIFFERECE between being under the law  and under grace and death?  

"Being under the Law" is attempting to keep the Law on one's own, being BURDENED by the 613 commandments in one's feeble attempts to please God in one's own power.

"Being under Grace" is coming to God for HIS acceptance through the Sacrifice of His Son, Yeshua` the Messiah of God. With the Sacrifice covering the sins of an individual, God is free to JUSTIFY that individual, DECLARING that individual "RIGHTEOUS."

In death, a person is remembered by God for how that person acquired his or her acceptance by God.

Anyone who attempted to do it on his or her own will find that he or she failed miserably. His or her resurrection will be as one who is unjust at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Anyone who asked God for His help and received His grace, the Sacrifice applied to his or her life, and was declared by God to be righteous in the Messiah, will find that he or she is accepted in the Beloved, and God will resurrect him or her when He sends His Messiah Yeshua` back to be King on His behalf. He or she will be resurrected to NEW LIFE, and will live eternally in God's favor.

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Please tell me ANYWHERE 'the last day' for a resurrection is spoken of AFTER THE  CHRIST DEFEATED DEATH ON THE CROSS.

First, the Messiah Yeshua` did NOT "defeat death on the cross" for all. While it was the death knell of Death, Death's final defeat is still in the future. It should be obvious to all that death is still a part of our existence! HOWEVER, for the person in the Messiah, we have the PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE after the FINAL DEFEAT of DEATH just before the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the Millennium. Thus, the death of one of His saints is merely seen as a "nap."

Philippians 3:7-21 (KJV)

7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect (complete): but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect (mature), be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) 20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven (the skies); from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 21 Who shall change (transform) our vile body (the body of our humiliation), that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

 

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Because you seem to completely disregard that there WAS a Kingdom and King offered AND HAD IT BEEN ACCEPTED, there WOULD HAVE BEEN A LAST DAY 

but it was all REJECTED, and Christ  

Yes, there WAS an offer of the King Yeshua`, God's Anointed (Messiah) to be King, and the Kingdom that would come from His Kingship, and like you say, it was rejected at that time. HOWEVER, that rejection was within the foreknowledge of God as the MEANS by which our Sacrifice would be offered to make it possible for God to DECLARE us "righteous" through the death of His Son as our "sin."

AND, when God says the time is right, that offer of the King and His Kingdom will be presented again, and this time, He and it will be accepted gladly by the children of Yhudah of Judah, the Jews! 

John 4:22 (KJV)

22 Ye (Samaritans) worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: FOR SALVATION (DELIVERANCE; RESCUE) IS OF THE JEWS.

 

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 1Peter 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

BRING US TO GOD.  TO SLEEP???   MADE ALIVE.  TO SLEEP???   HEAVENLY BODY.  NOT FOR USE IN HEAVEN???  BURIED WITH CHRIST.  NOT TO BE RAISED???  

For now, when one dies in the Messiah, one sleeps in the Messiah ... TO BE AWAKENED by God's Power! That's what "quickened by the Spirit" means! It means "to be brought back to life by the Spirit of God!"

Regarding 1 Peter 3:19-4:6, this is an obscure passage that some have interpreted to mean that Yeshua` went into the heart of the earth, where they assume Hades to be, and preach to those who are there, but there's another interpretation:

1 Peter 3:19-22; 4:1-6 (KJV)

 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save (deliver; rescue) us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revelings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

JUST WHOM did Yeshua`s death raise to life? Who came out of those tombs? I submit that THESE are the ones to whom Yeshua` "heralded the good news!" The word for "prison" is fulakee:

5438 fulakee (foo-lak-ay'). From fulassoo; a guarding or (concretely, guard), the act, the person; figuratively, the place, the condition, or (specially), the time (as a division of day or night), literally or figuratively
-- cage, hold, (im-)prison(-ment), ward, watch.

They were raised to life when Yeshua` died, but they didn't come out of their tombs until the Messiah was raised to life! There was a CAPTIVE AUDIENCE in the graveyard that morning before the women arrived!

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God is bringing with Him.  Then we had to go.  

You're assuming God is bringing them FROM HEAVEN with the Messiah; however, God is really bringing them FROM THEIR GRAVES to join the Messiah IN THE SKIES and THEN travel "with the Messiah."

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John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 AND WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND BELIEVETH IN ME SHALL NEVER DIE.  BELIEVEST THOU THIS?  

Maybe He should have said "SHALL NEVER SLEEP" 

There's that "waffling," again. READ FOR UNDERSTANDING, not to put your twist into what you have read!

The Greek words for "though he were dead" in 11:25 is "kan apothanee," which means "and-if he-should-die." The Greek word of "yet shall he live" is "zeesetai," which means "he-will-live." So, Yeshua` said, "And if he should die, he will live."

But, Yeshua`s point to Martha was to make her understand that "resurrection" is found IN THE MESSIAH YESHUA`, when He's there to make it happen!

Here's the Greek of 11:26: 

26 Kai pas ho zoon kai pisteuoon eis eme ou mee apothanee eis ton aioona: pisteueis touto?

26 And all the living-ones and believing-ones into me not (positively) not (negatively) he-should-die into the age: do-you-believe this?

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 (Maybe He should have said "SHALL NEVER SLEEP" )

Oh wait, HE DID.  

John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

THE 'SLEEP' BEING SPOKEN OF HIS IS 'DEATH' because WE DON'T SORROW OVER THOSE GOING TO BED AT NIGHT.

You seem to be vacillating between calling it "sleep" and calling it "death." Each of us is a SINGLE body at a time, and yes, at the end of our decaying process, we die. And, since we have the promise of resurrection and the anticipation of that resurrection, we, like our Master, call it "sleep"; for the one who is in the Messiah, that's likened to "sleep" because it's NOT A PERMANENT CONDITION! And, in the Resurrection, we shall be "awakened out of sleep!" It is then, as being awakened, that "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we (the living) shall be changed!" (1 Corinthians 15:52)

See and understand this:

Right now, we experience two different processes throughout our being: The first process is growth; that is, the cells in our body are constantly dividing and growing, replacing cells that have been damaged or have gone missing.

The second process is decay; that is, the cells in our body are wearing out and are either being replaced, or become missing, if they are irreplaceable.

Cells make up tissues, tissues make up organs, organs make up systems, and systems keep the body going. Small amounts of cell damage may be replaceable at the cellular level, such as a cut or a scratch. Deeper cell damage may call for scar tissue to replace the cells that were once there. Too much tissue damage, such as the loss of cartilage between bones, can lead to complications, like arthritis. If the tissues that make up the organs, such as the thyroid, are damaged, the organ may not work anymore. Some organs are more essential than others: One can survive without a working thyroid or a working bile duct or even a kidney, but one cannot survive without a working liver or heart! Without a heart, the circulatory system is in severe trouble! And, without a working circulatory system, the body will die, succumbing to the process of decay, which has, by that point, outnumbered and overtook the process of growth.

BUT, in the Resurrection, we will have the process of growth without the process of decay! Furthermore, we will get most of our life process directly from the light of God! I believe that when John said,

John 1:1-14 (KJV)

1 In the beginning was THE WORD, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 IN HIM (THE WORD) WAS LIFE; and THE LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN. 5 And THE LIGHT shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of THE LIGHT, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of THAT LIGHT.

9 That was THE TRUE LIGHT, which LIGHTETH every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his GLORY  the GLORY as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 

... he meant this LITERALLY!

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Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, WHEREIN ALSO YE ARE RISEN WITH HIM  through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


got it?  NO LONGER  'AT A LAST DAY', BUT NOW.  WAITING FOR THE TERRESTRIAL BODY TO DIE for the RISING IN THE CELESTIAL BODY UPON DEATH OF THE TERRESTRIAL ONE.  

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Colossians 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

No, that's an error in interpretation. READ ON!

Colossians 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 If ye then be risen with Christ (through the Messiah), seek those things which are above, where Christ (the Messiah) sitteth on the right [hand] of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For YE ARE DEAD, and your life is hid with Christ (is hidden with the Messiah) in God. 4 WHEN CHRIST (THE MESSIAH), who is our life, SHALL APPEAR, THEN shall ye also appear with him in glory (brightness).

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1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, THOU SOWEST NOT THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE 
NOT THAT BODY THAT SHALL BE,  NOT THAT SAME BODY IS RAISED.

That body that is planted WAS THE SEED that DIED that QUICKENED the BODY THAT COMES FROM THE DEATH OF THAT SEED.  Notice ANY separation of soul and spirit in the conversation on the bodies?
 

Sorry, but you're not right about this. The body that was planted was indeed the seed, but it was the seed COAT that died, not the germ of the seed! The germ of the seed grows into the "body that shall be!" Genetically, they are the SAME BODY! You don't think Paul knew that in an agricultural society?! All they would have to do is take a sharp knife and cut the seed in half to find the tiny, green (or yellow), plant inside, ready to grow into the adult version of the plant!

And, nope. There's no "separation of soul and spirit" in the conversation on the bodies ... or "separation of soul and body," either!

Paul is simply saying that the two bodies, although the same genetic structure, shall be VASTLY different in body TYPE when the plant emerges from the ground! THERE SHALL BE A CHANGE! THAT'S to what Paul was alluding!

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1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

and now comes the EXPLANATION of how the CELESTIAL bodies of the sons of God are DIFFERENT from each other.  Remember Vessels of gold to honor, vessels of wood to dishonor.  

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Our flesh bodies ARE BURIED while we are still walking around in them, if you have the SPIRITUAL EYES TO SEE AND UNDERSTAND THIS.  OUR SPIRITUAL BODIES are taking control over the carnal flesh of this world bodies THE MOMENT we are MADE INTO NEW CREATURES.  

No, that's just crazy talk. You're alluding back to Colossians 2:12 and foreshadows your reference to Romans 6:3-13. Let's HOPE "Our flesh bodies ARE" NOT "BURIED while we are still walking around in them!" How crazy is that?!

No, we were "buried WITH CHRIST!" That is, "IN BAPTISM!" IT'S A PICTURE! A SYMBOL! NOT LITERALLY! IT'S THE HOPE, the CONFIDENCE, that we have to be resurrected JUST AS THE MESSIAH was resurrected!

Now, when you are referencing 1 Corinthians 15:39-42, Paul was NOT saying that we would be like the heavenly bodies of the sun, moon, and stars any more than we would be like beasts, fishes, or birds! He was simply making the statement that there are two different kinds of GLORY, one of HEAT ("having a radiant glow") and one of LIGHT (LITERALLY radiant)! So, he may have been saying (and I believe that he was saying) that we will literally glow in the resurrection.

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Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

This response MAKES CLEAR why we see ALL of this from opposite sides.  
in the twinkling of an eye we pass through death unto life

 

1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

This is LIFE continuing on.  You want to add a 'sleep/death' pause in the middle.  

Hmmph! I don't "WANT to add a 'sleep/death' pause in the middle," there just IS ONE! GET OVER IT! DEATH STILL HAPPENS, whether you want to accept it or not! You don't have a "spiritual body" that goes to "Heaven"; you will just have to WAIT IN SLEEP until the Messiah Yeshua` returns, BECAUSE "this life is in His Son," and HE'S NOT BACK, YET!

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1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life: and in the pathway thereof there is no death. (sleep)
 

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

1 John 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one (death) toucheth him not.

1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

No, the "wicked one" is NOT "death"; it's the devil, haSatan! Yeshua` told us that in His parable of the wheat and the tares (look-alike weeds):

Matthew 13:38-39 (KJV)

38 "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels."

And, regarding John's first letter, HE ALREADY SAID,

1 John 3:1-3 (KJV)

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called "the sons of God": therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we "the sons of God," and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath THIS HOPE (Greek: elpida = "expectation of what is sure [certain]") in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Sorry, but again, you'll JUST HAVE TO WAIT (IN SLEEP) for "WHEN HE SHALL APPEAR!"

[Retrobyter]

On 3/13/2021 at 4:12 PM, SONshine said:

Hi there, sis @DeighAnn

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

*This is the second death.*

Rev. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

This is not talking about resurrection; this is coming before the Judge.

We are at the end of the Millennium.

Shalom, SONshine.

Whoops! Hold it right there. We're not CURRENTLY "at the end of the Millennium"; the Millennium hasn't BEGUN, YET, right? I hope that's not what you meant to say.

The Millennium doesn't begin until AFTER the Messiah returns bodily! This is the order of things as presented in Revelation 20:

Revelation 20:1-6 (KJV)

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

This is at the beginning of the Millennium, the "one thousand years." HaSatan is chained up and locked away - incarcerated - within the bottomless pit (the abussos, in Greek, which means "no bottom" and refers to a pit with an unsounded bottom; it's not known how deep it goes).

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 

You're right that this part is referring to the ones who were beheaded for the witness of Yeshua` and they will live again (be resurrected) and reign with the Messiah for a thousand LITERAL years, a LITERAL thousand-year period.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 

The first part of this verse is parenthetical; "the rest of the dead not living again, i.e., not being resurrected, until AFTER the Millennium" is just a FORESIGHT of what happens at the end thrown into the discourse. Then, John picks up again, "THIS (what he just said in verse 4) is the first resurrection." But, then he adds,

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This refers to EVERYBODY who has a part in the first resurrection, which occurs at the beginning of the thousand years, at the beginning of the Millennium. ALL who are part of this first resurrection are those on whom "the second death has no power." They ALL will be "priests of God and of His Messiah, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." This is the BULK of the Millennium!

THEN we read about the end of the Millennium:

Revelation 20:7-10 (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet (already) are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

One shouldn't forget this part. It shows how the Millennium will end!

NOW, we read about the rest:

Revelation 20:11-12 (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

On 3/13/2021 at 4:12 PM, SONshine said:

 The "dead" referred to here are the spiritually dead who are about to be judged from the books and receive their rewards according to their actions (those of the first resurrection are not subject to the judgment of the second resurrection and/or the second death).

No, these were LITERALLY dead people who were BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE or RESURRECTED to stand before the Great White Throne!

On 3/13/2021 at 4:12 PM, SONshine said:

 

[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 
...

The First Resurrection 

Rev. 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

(1) The first group are the martyrs down through the ages, those who have been beheaded, killed or executed for the the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God. It would include the two witnesses also.

(2) The second group are those of this final generation who had the seal of God in their foreheads and who overcame the beast.

 

With the rest of this I can agree, but understand that the MAJORITY who stand before the Great White Throne WON'T be those who "had the seal of God in their foreheads and who overcame the beast." This final Judgment will mostly be the Judgment of the UNJUST!

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

but the graves weren't emptied until AFTER His Resurrection!

 

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 51 And, behold, THE VEIL OF THE TEMPLE WAS RENT IN TWAIN (RIPPED IN TWO) FROM THE TOP TO THE BOTTOM; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 5

Which is it?


Who closed the graves back up once they were opened?  Would seem that PASSING THROUGH DEATH TO LIFE would require they stay that way.  




 

 

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Oh, no. He DID "sleep!"

 

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The Scriptures do NOT teach that! (More on that later, if you want.)

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
 

1Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;


I don't need more on 'how you believe' on this subject later.  I UNDERSTAND we do not SEE the same.  

 

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

In death, a person is remembered by God for how that person acquired his or her acceptance by God.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

We go to be with Him where He is and he is at the right hand of the Father.  

You want to keep/go back to your decaying corruptible body. 
I am looking forward to getting rid of it forever.  

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect (complete): but I follow after,

Christ died and went to the Father.  I die and go to the Father.  I HAVE attained the resurrection of the dead THROUGH CHRIST if I ABIDE IN HIM.  

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Why make it so complicated?  Remember WHO will understand what is written?  Is it 'the learned'?  

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Yes, there WAS an offer of the King Yeshua`, God's Anointed (Messiah) to be King, and the Kingdom that would come from His Kingship, and like you say, it was rejected at that time. HOWEVER, that rejection was within the foreknowledge of God as the MEANS by which our Sacrifice would be offered to make it possible for God to DECLARE us "righteous" through the death of His Son as our "sin."

Doesn't mean it was written that way.

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You're assuming God is bringing them FROM HEAVEN with the Messiah; however, God is really bringing them FROM THEIR GRAVES to join the Messiah IN THE SKIES and THEN travel "with the Messiah."

Says who?  THAT isn't what is written.  OR IS IT?  WHERE is that WRITTEN. 

WHERE ARE ALL YOUR GREEK DEFINITIONS?  

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

, like our Master, call it "sleep"; for the one who is in the Messiah, that's likened to "sleep" because it's NOT A PERMANENT CONDITION!

PASS THROUGH, NOT HANG OUT

[DeighAnn]

14 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

No, the "wicked one" is NOT "death"; it's the devil, haSatan! Yeshua` told us that in His parable of the wheat and the tares (look-alike weeds):

AND all the rest you wrote we don't agree and I have stated what is written so no need to do it again.  

Here is the ADVERSARY,  add others if you must but they are ALL of him, (but it just complicates a very simple plan).  

Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

 

Gods word isn't complicated, IT'S DEEP.  You seem to be stuck making the simple hard thereby never getting to the deep and hidden treasures. The Jews require a sign and the Greeks? 

 

[seeking the lost]

On 2/25/2021 at 12:15 AM, R. Hartono said:

Want verses about the pre-trib. rapture and claims there is none ? Very clear, the saints are caught up to the cloud because Jesus does not return yet but taking these wise virgins home be4 the great tribulation befall the world (not the saints) like a snare.

Luke 21:34 Do not let that Day catch you unaware (it traps the whole world not the aware saints)

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air......

Caught up = snatched =  harpagēsometha (greek)

https://biblehub.com/text/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm

The saints shall be gathered with the sound of the Rapture Trumpet (not the 7 Trumpet which brings destruction) because how can the Rapture takes place if the Trumpet sound brings destruction to the saints below ? The Rapture Trumpet is sounded in order to send God's angel to gather the saints, not to create the destruction on earth yet :

The Trumpet of Rapture :  

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Some people say 1 Thes 4:17 is the second coming, which means after Lord Jesus's angels gather the saints to the cloud then Jesus will make a U-Turn in the sky to return the saints to the ground. SMH.

 

THE WORLD WILL NOT WAIL IF JESUS APPEARS IN THE SKY AND THEN LANDED ON EARTH TO HEAL THE WORLD.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.

 

The world will cry because they see the saints are taken on the cloud and they are left behind. They will beg "Lord Lord open to us", "...I know you not"

 

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/261481-the-cry-foolish-virgins-left-behind/

The parable of the virgins does not indicate that anybody is taken up or changed.  There was a separation of foolish and wise.  The foolish were on one side and the wise on the other.  The foolish are on the left out side of the door that they are knocking on.

Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and the tares that the tares are gathered out first and burned.  How do you reconcile the parables that seem to indicate that the saints remain after the unrighteous are taken out?