Proper Boundaries With new Pastor...

[leah777]

2 hours ago, bornagain2011 said:

I just don't want to be a temptation to him. I try to dress really modestly also. 

Please stop blaming yourself. Really, its not your fault the Pastor cant handle the sight of a modestly dressed woman. Its not your fault at all.

2 hours ago, bornagain2011 said:

one being Pastor doesn't really think about how the woman feels about the interactions because I guess he is entirely innocent in his thinking so he leaves it up to God, and Pastor did admit to struggling with the same things every man struggles with.

These two sentences are opposites. Either the Pastor is innocent in his thoughts, so he wouldnt have an issue with women, or he has the normal struggles with sin and temptation we all have. Not both.

To not listen to the advice of your husband is not a sign of a godly attitude in this area. He should, at the very least, be concerned about protecting the females in his flock from suspicion or gossip. He is being selfish in that area. He may well believe he does not have issues with women, but he still has to respect them and their reputation. That would be a loving mature behaviour from him.

I repeat, this is not your fault.

[leah777]

2 hours ago, bornagain2011 said:

So, I have to pray each time before church that I don't get sucked in to conversations with Pastor and that I can be strong enough to walk away like I did yesterday.

Just want to follow this point. Well done for walking away. Can you make sure, while this is going on, that you always have company with you where the pastor is? You should not be in this position at all. I wonder who trained the pastor? Well done also with the unfriending on fb.

One last point - ask God to help you love your husband even more. If your eyes and heart are on your husband, it may help with dealing with the attention.

What is your pastor like around the men and teens in the congregation? Does he seek their company alone?

[bornagain2011]

20 minutes ago, leah777 said:

Please stop blaming yourself. Really, its not your fault the Pastor cant handle the sight of a modestly dressed woman. Its not your fault at all.

These two sentences are opposites. Either the Pastor is innocent in his thoughts, so he wouldnt have an issue with women, or he has the normal struggles with sin and temptation we all have. Not both.

To not listen to the advice of your husband is not a sign of a godly attitude in this area. He should, at the very least, be concerned about protecting the females in his flock from suspicion or gossip. He is being selfish in that area. He may well believe he does not have issues with women, but he still has to respect them and their reputation. That would be a loving mature behaviour from him.

I repeat, this is not your fault.

Again, thank you for your wisdom.

His wife thinks he is innocent, my husband and I do not... none of us are completely innocent. If she means he is innocent as in he takes all thoughts captive, and works on training his eyes, I can belieive that more. But the way she said it makes it seem like he is childlike. 

I agree with you, for him to be loving towards his sisters in Christ is to create proper boundaries and to want to protect our hearts. And for me to be loving towards my brothers is to do the same, and also help protect their eyes.

[bornagain2011]

18 minutes ago, leah777 said:

Just want to follow this point. Well done for walking away. Can you make sure, while this is going on, that you always have company with you where the pastor is? You should not be in this position at all. I wonder who trained the pastor? Well done also with the unfriending on fb.

One last point - ask God to help you love your husband even more. If your eyes and heart are on your husband, it may help with dealing with the attention.

What is your pastor like around the men and teens in the congregation? Does he seek their company alone?

I usually try to be talking to one of the females at church so that I am not alone. My husband can only accompany me every other Sunday and every other Wednesday due to his work schedule. 

And my husband and I made it a new rule that he will be with me while I clean the church so Pastor can't catch me alone and talk to me.

I had to unfriend him because despite him having over 700 friends, my husband and I noticed that he only liked my things, and he never posted any of his own things. So it seemed like he was giving more attention to my FB page. Maybe he just wanted me to feel welcomed into the church, I don't know. But I have fb boundaries that say I am not friends with men, and I don't contact them etc. When my husband went and talked to Pastor and told him I couldn't be his FB friend anymore he seemed really understanding about it.

My husband and I have been a lot closer now, which has helped a lot. We have been building up trust again, and my heart has turned back towards him.

Pastor seems to be very apporopriate around the teens and men. There is one other female who he seems a little flirty with, and she is very obvious with her flirtation. They have calmed down a bit and I don't really see them talking to each other too much anymore. But it was kind of sad to watch her act like a school girl around him. 

I think this will hopefully be a learning experience for him, as it has been for myself. I really do love this church, and I hope we can stay here.

[steve morrow]

FOLLOWING  GODS  INSTRUCTION  OR  ????

 

1 CORINTHIANS 14:33  for  GOD  is not the author of confusion but of peace ---AS  IN  ALL  THE  CHURCHES  OF  THE  SAINTS---

--14:34-- LET  YOUR  WOMEN  KEEP  SILENCE  IN  THE  CHURCHES  FOR  IT  IS  NOT  PERMITTED  UNTO  THEM  TO  SPEAK  BUT  THEY  ARE  COMMANDED  TO  BE  UNDER  OBEDIENCE  AS  ALSO  SAITH  THE  LAW

 

******* 14:35--  AND  IF  THEY  WILL  LEARN  ANYTHING  --LET  THEM  ASK  THEIR  HUSBANDS--  AT  HOME -- FOR  IT  IS  A  SHAME  FOR  WOMEN  TO  SPEAK  IN  THE  CHURCH *******

 

PROVERBS 14:7  GO  FROM  THE  PRESENCE  OF  A  FOOLISH  MAN  WHEN  THOU  PERCEIVEST  NOT  IN  HIM  THE  LIPS  OF  KNOWLEDGE 

ROMANS 10:2 for I bear them record that they have a zeal of  GOD  but not according to knowledge 

JOB 38:2  who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge 

 

 

PSALM 26:4  I  HAVE  NOT  SAT  WITH  VAIN  PERSONS  NEITHER  WILL  I  GO  IN  WITH  DISSEMBLERS

PSALM 26:5  I  HAVE  HATED  THE  CONGREGATION  OF  EVIL  DOERS  AND  WILL  NOT  SIT  WITH  THE  WICKED 

 

PSALM 119:139  MY  ZEAL  HATH  CONSUMED  ME  BECAUSE  MINE  ENEMIES  HAVE  FORGOTTEN  THY  WORDS 

 

 

JEREMIAH 23:21  I have not sent these prophets yet they ran I have not spoken to them yet they prophesied 

--23:22-- but if they had stood in  MY  counsel and had caused  MY  people to hear  MY  words then they should have turned them from their evil way and from the evil of their doings 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

[bornagain2011]

55 minutes ago, DDisconnect said:

Hm... It sounds as though the pastor may be backing off on his own, which that's good if that's the case. However, I've had obsessions happen before. Someone I once knew, 4 to 5 months of harrassment, wanting illicit pictures ... And I'm a guy! We had been friends initially, and because I didn't want to throw the friendship away, I had tolerated it. Tried to take it lightly despite how creepy and frequent it was. But you see, dodging the topic or just taking it lightly makes it worse, they take it as a bit permissive. I fear that, because he hears it from your husband and not as much from you, he may think it is only your husband who has an issue and thus still try to pursue you. As I did with my so-called friend, I had to tell them directly that it was never going to happen and that it needed to stop. That former friend did not, and so it was ended - if the pastor does not stop even after you yourself rebuke him (if you find you need to), then it may be time to move on once again.

Then, on a side note, it is good that your husband wishes to protect you. However, one small concern of mine is that, because you had started to develop feelings for someone else before, he does not trust you. That may not be... Entirely unreasonable, to be certain, but then you have not only been very honest and open with him regarding such things, but you made the decision beforehand to leave your last church. I'm not saying that he distrusts you as a fact, but that it may be something to keep awareness of in the future - you have not yet tried to pursue the pastor and you do not wish to. I just hope that your husband believes you in that regard, though again, his protection of you is not unwarranted - especially if the pastor is someone who might be stubborn about his desires. 

Wow, I'm sorry you went through all that. You definitely did the right thing by being direct with her. I hope I wont need to do that in my situation, I hope me cooling off will be enough for him to get the picture. 

I think it is fairly accurate to say that my husband does not yet fully 100% trust me, we are working on this. My husband says it's not so much a lack of trust as it is more of an awareness of different areas we struggle in. I need boundaries in some areas, and my husband needs boundaries in other areas too. I have been learning to appreciate my husband's protection of me. 

What I am hoping to see happen from here on out is that Pastor shows a respect for our boundaries by allowing me to keep conversations short and to the point, and both of us talking more with the spouse. I really don't want to create any weirdness by confronting him, so I am praying it doesn't get to that point. 

I thank everyone here for their wise counsel. I feel like I might be getting into the dangerous waters of over-thinking and over-analyzing things, and that's how I became obsessed with the last guy (I have OCD). I really don't want to start disecting everything Pastor says and does and ruminating on it. I have been keeping myself busy and distracted so that I don't do that. 

Edited March 9, 2021 by bornagain2011
I can't english correctly

[Who me]

On 3/8/2021 at 2:44 PM, bornagain2011 said:

So very short conversations and move on? What about group settings where there are a few couples talking together? Is it appropriate to talk or joke with a man in that setting? 

 

I think it depends on the conversation and about body language.

There is nothing wrong with discussing or talking with a member of the opposite sex.

The quarry is how are they and how are you reacting to being in proximity to that person? Does one find that at every church meeting there is an intense conversation with that one person?

What language is being used? 

 

 

There are no hard and fast rules, one just has to be aware of the possibility of either giving the wrong message or of the possibility of being more than just tempted.

 

[appy]

Pastors and other leaders in any given church are human. They are not immune to temptations and they can easily succumb to temptations just like everyone else, given the right person and circumstances. And the damage is done. King David, a man after God's own heart, is a good example of what I'm saying. David was very likable and very Godly in his day. His story teaches us that ALL of us are not immune to being tempted.

 

On 3/7/2021 at 8:48 PM, bornagain2011 said:

Pastor responded along the lines of "I leave that up to God" or something, like he does not take any responsibility for what a woman might think or feel, sort of like if a woman dresses revealing and a man stumbles from it and she says " his reaction is not my responsiblity". 

Someone that comes up with excuses for why they should not be held accountable is a person that you should definitely break ties with. No matter how friendly, charming and witty they are. These kind of people are very clever at hiding what kind of person they really are from those outside of their family.

The above quote from your post is a huge, huge red flag as well as the fact that there is a camera, that he has access to. That you and your husband should not ignore or excuse. You are NOT over thinking this. NOT at all. From your posts as a whole, I have the impression you're not the first woman to get tangled up with this man. That there is more going on or has occurred in the past before you started attending this church than you and your husband is aware of.

To keep attending this church and coming into contact with him, you are putting the both of you in a position of continued temptations and at the same time causing your hubby to worry about his marriage. Your husband loves you, or he wouldn't be concerned about you being around this guy. As much as you might not want to, it is time to break all ties with this pastor and his family and seek out another church to attend asap. Don't let anyone from this particular church make you and your husband feel guilty for leaving.  It is in you and your husband's best interest to leave, and move on.

 

[Paul James]

On 3/8/2021 at 5:48 PM, bornagain2011 said:

This is really embarassing to post about this, escpecially since the reason we left our last church in November was because of an emotional affair starting to slowly develop on my part with another member there. We felt like in order to save our marriage we needed to leave that church and I also was felt led to leave my job because the man I had feelings for was always hovering outside of my workplace (long long story).

So, we started going to this new church, and it has been so amazing! Everything we had wanted. The Pastor's preaching is on point and Gospel focused, the youth group is amazing and the kids are learning so much! We quickly made friends with about 6 other married couples including Pastor and his wife who are also in their 30's like us, their kids are good friends with our kids. This church has been such a blessing for us.

My problem now is that I don't think I had proper boundaries with the Pastor in the beginning, and now I need to reel it back in. He is a very friendly guy who loves to laugh, joke, and talk a lot. He is never innapropriate, but him and I have gotten into some deep discussions around science, politics, etc. It's not flirty by any standards, but aparently it has bonded us a bit. 

I never had a pastor that would actually come talk to us, so I assumed that boundaries with pastors are slightly looser than with any other man because they are like counselors in a way. My husband told me early on that I needed to be careful with Pastor because he can see that Pastor has an attraction to me, I saw it as well, but because I definitely did  NOT have any attraction towards him I had my guard down (dumb idea). 

And then about 2 weeks ago an "incident" happened, I was at church cleaning the nursery and talking to a female friend downstairs, her husband was supposed to talk to Pastor for a bit, but when I went upstairs to put some keys away Pastor started talking to me, my friend's husband went downstairs to let Pastor talk to me, I didn't want to talk to Pastor because I wasn't comfortable with that idea of us being upstairs by ourselves, but he said he had questions for my husband and I, and I remembered the camera that is always recording, so I sat and talked to him. We talked for a long time, too long. I can't blame it all on him, I shouldv'e said I needed to go, at one point I got up and started to leave, but he kept talking and asking more questions. We mostly talked about ministry, but I did talk aout my marriage a little  . I know better now. My friend's husband came back upstairs to say goodbye to Pastor, and I apologized that they didn't get to talk. And also at one point Pastor's wife called him, he looked down at his phone and swiped the call away. 

I came home and told my husband about all of this, and I had no idea at the time but Pastor's wife was also giving him the same talk my husband was giving me, that even if it was innocent it wouldv'e looked innappropriate. I talked to his wife about it and apologized, she told me what she told him, but he told her there was a camera (that's also what he told me during our long talk).

My husband and Pastor went on a camping trip with our sons for a few days, they had a chance to talk about some things. My husband told him that he needs to be careful because women become attatched when you give them attention, Pastor responded along the lines of "I leave that up to God" or something, like he does not take any responsibility for what a woman might think or feel, sort of like if a woman dresses revealing and a man stumbles from it and she says " his reaction is not my responsiblity". 

When my husband came back from their trip, he layed down some NEW boundaries, newer than the ones after my long talk with Pastor. So now when Pastor comes up to me and tries to talk to me I am supposed to keep it short and to the point. I think he knows I am not supposed to talk to him a whole lot anymore, so it surprised my husband and I when he came up to me on wednesday to show me the pictures he took while on the trip with my husband. So, he is still being friendly and not fully avoiding me, which I don't think he will because ... he is a pastor. And I don't know if it would be fair to tell our pastor to no longer talk to me anymore.

This is the first time I have seen my husband this jelous, usually he couldn't care less, even when I was emotionally entangled with the previous guy, it was MY decision to leave the last church and to leave my job. Whatever Pastor and him talked about on their trip seemed to have an effect on my husband because now he is way more protective. 

After my long 2 hour conversation with Pastor, I realized my boundaries with him were WAY out of wack, and that he is not a counselor, and that I needed to have the same boundaries that I do with other men, but now after their trip it is even stricter.

What boundaries are acceptable between a woman and a Pastor? 

Sorry this is so long, I think Satan is trying to turn this blessing of a church into a curse. I don't believe Pastor has any ill intentions, but I do believe he struggles with his eyes (I catch him looking at me a lot). I won't allow the enemy to take me back to where I was before.

A church pastor is the same as a school teacher.  They have a powerful position in the church or school.   When I trained as a teacher, we were told of the vital importance of maintaining a professional distance between us and our students.   I think the same should apply to church pastors and church members.

We were also trained not to be alone in a room with a male or female student.  If there is a complaint of impropriety, there is no defence and it remains the word of the teacher against the word of the student.  So when counselling a student, it is important to have another adult present so that in a situation where a complaint is made by a student, it can be refuted by the teacher and the other adult present.   I was accused in one school by a student who reckoned that I was leering at her in class (she was 12 years told), so I demanded the Principal to have another adult in my room when that student was present as part of her elective class, to keep me safe.

Unfortunately, there are many situations where a pastor has had an affair with a church member.  In one very large Charismatic church in a New Zealand city, the married pastor ran off with the church secretary,  Until then, he was viewed as one of the leading lights in the New Zealand Pentecostal and Charismatic movement.

If you need pastoral counselling, you would be safe by having the pastor's wife in attendance (unless she tends to gossip about clients in the church prayer meeting as has happened in a Charismatic church I once belonged to).  Alternatively having a trusted female friend, or your husband in attendance.  If your issue concerns your marriage and you wouldn't want your husband there, finding a Christian marriage counsellor would be your best bet.

If you feel you need better Bible knowledge, you could enroll in an on-line Bible College (I am the Oceanic Ambassador for Nations University (NU) and I thoroughly recommend it for doing one of its basic Bible courses.  I spent three years doing a Mastorate in Divinity and found it a wonderful journey with very supportive staff and student advisor).  You don't have to do anything academic if you don't wish that, but there are inexpensive basic Bible courses that will greatly benefit you.

Unfortunately, many church pastors have been well-trained in theology and divinity, but training in ethical relationships is neglected, especially for unmarried pastors.  The ministry can be very lonely for unmarried pastors, which opens him up to unethical contacts and relationships with female church members.  The role of not dating your workmates is a good rule for unmarried pastors.  If looking for a life-partner, it would be best to look outside of his church congregation so that no female members are "pressured" by the pastor's position of power into a relationship that may end up being a disaster for the church.   If the unmarried pastor is young, handsome and attractive to women and goes into a relationship with one young woman in the congregation, envy and jealousy are horrible things which can cause gossip and character assassination among the other young women.  Concerning this, the RCC ordination requirement that priests are celibate, except for those coming from other churches already married,  goes a long way to avoiding the problem because the priest is "unavailable" to the young women of the parish (although secret fornication is not unheard of, which is another issue).

So, my advice is to keep you and your marriage safe through wise conduct and good interpersonal strategies.

[bornagain2011]

15 minutes ago, appy said:

Pastors and other leaders in any given church are human. They are not immune to temptations and they can easily succumb to temptations just like everyone else, given the right person and circumstances. And the damage is done. King David, a man after God's own heart, is a good example of what I'm saying. David was very likable and very Godly in his day. His story teaches us that ALL of us are not immune to being tempted.

 

Someone that comes up with excuses for why they should not be held accountable is a person that you should definitely break ties with. No matter how friendly, charming and witty they are. These kind of people are very clever at hiding what kind of person they really are from those outside of their family.

The above quote from your post is a huge, huge red flag as well as the fact that there is a camera, that he has access to. That you and your husband should not ignore or excuse. You are NOT over thinking this. NOT at all. From your posts as a whole, I have the impression you're not the first woman to get tangled up with this man. That there is more going on or has occurred in the past before you started attending this church than you and your husband is aware of.

To keep attending this church and coming into contact with him, you are putting the both of you in a position of continued temptations and at the same time causing your hubby to worry about his marriage. Your husband loves you, or he wouldn't be concerned about you being around this guy. As much as you might not want to, it is time to break all ties with this pastor and his family and seek out another church to attend asap. Don't let anyone from this particular church make you and your husband feel guilty for leaving.  It is in you and your husband's best interest to leave, and move on.

 

A lot of my previous posts on this site have been referring to my OLD church and the guy I almost had an emotional affair with there (or I did have one, I don't know). My family and I left that church in November and started attending this new one.

Pastor has cameras all over the church, the cameras link up with an app on his phone so he can be alerted about any break ins etc. He also has cameras in his home. During our long talk he showed me how his phone syncs up with his wife's and visa versa, so she sees all of his texts in real time and everything else he does. I think their boundaries with those things are stricter because of the position of leadership he is in. But his boundaries with talking to the opposite sex are looser than mine are.

The Pastor seems like a really Godly man. The guy at our last church was just all around bad news, very worldly and attention seeking. This Pastor seems to like my attention and personality, but he doesn't seem worldly or like he is being too over the top.

My husband said that if Pastor doesn't take the hint from me backing off, that he will need to talk to him again, or he will let me say something to him. I think a short "how was your weekend?" type of thing is ok since he is our Pastor, but long conversations with laughing and things like that are not going to happen anymore.