Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 4/26/2021 at 3:00 PM, Da Puppers said:

Joel said that there would be SIGNS in the heavens,  ala the 6th seal and the 4th trumpet.  He said that there would be blood and fire,  trumpets 1,2 & 3.  He said there would be locusts,  trumpet #5.  He said there would be horsemen and vapors of smoke,  trumpet #6.  He said there would be signs in heavens, see Rev 12, the sign of the dragon and the woman.   Malachi said that Elijah would come before the DOTL.  All of these things precede the DOTL as per the 7th Trumpet. 

Relating more specifically to my thread and your conclusion concerning the DOTL and the 7th Trumpet, this is what I understand...

1. With the sounding of the Trump of God, "the dead in Christ shall rise first;  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (I Thess. 4:16-17).
2. In harmony with this, at "the Last Trump...the dead shall be raised incorruptible (the resurrection), and we (which are alive and remain) shall be changed (when we are "caught up") (I Cor. 15:52).
3. In harmony with this, at the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven...He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet (the Trump of God/the Last Trump), and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds (when we are "caught up") (Matt. 24:30-31).
4. The preceding event harmonizes with the opening of the 6th Seal, as evidenced by the paralleling celestial phenomena of Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-14.  This is also reinforced by the Luke 21:25-27 parallel and the just gathered "great multitude" (Rev. 7:9-17) shown in the interlude between the 6th and 7th Seal.
5. The part of Joel's Day of the Lord prophecy that we know relates specifically to the last days is quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21).  The celestial phenomena of that prophecy (Acts 2:20) fits with both Jesus' words (Matt. 24:29) and John's account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-14), which shows these phenomena happening before the Day of the Lord/the Great Day of His Wrath (Rev. 6:17), all in harmony with Joel's prophecy.
6. In harmony with the foregoing scriptural evidences, we see nothing of any other trumpets until after the 7th Seal of the Seven Sealed Book is opened (Rev. 8:1).  It is after this, and not before, that John saw "seven angels, which stood before God;  and to them were given seven trumpets" (Rev. 8:2).  When the 1st Trumpet is sounded, John gives an account of what happened (Rev. 8:7).  The same with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th trumpets, the latter of these two being also described as "woes" that are "past" (5th/Rev. 9:12 and 6th/Rev. 11:14).
7. As with the previous six trumpets, when the 7th Trumpet is sounded, John writes what he saw (Rev. 11:15-19).  What he saw at this time does not harmonize with what Jesus spoke concerning the event of "the sign of Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31ff), nor the other things that we find in Scripture that do harmonize with that event.  Rather, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period of time that is expounded in Revelation chapters 12-20, as evidenced by the summary words of this period (esp. Rev. 11:18).  Further, it heralds the period of time that will finally bring to pass complete closure for this world (Rev. 10:7, 11:18, 20:11ff, and Rev. 21:1).

In review, "The Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16) and "The Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52) spoken of by Paul are the same as the "great sound of a trumpet) (Matt. 24:31) spoken of by Jesus, which is a great trumpet sounding that will happen in conjunction with the event of the resurrection and the rapture.  On the other hand, the 7th Trumpet, when it is sounded, will herald the period of time that will finally bring this world to closure, the account of which stretches from Revelation 12 through 20.

[not an echo]

On 4/28/2021 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Annnyway, I've never seen you make an acknowledgment that there is both an "at hand" (Joel 1:15) and a "it shall come to pass afterward" (2:28) Day of the Lord being prophesied in the book of Joel.  Further, I just don't see what happens in chapter 1 as really dovetailing with the 1st and 3rd trumpets.  It seems odd to me that the locust/worm activity of chapter 1 would be even partly involved in what happens with the 1st or 3rd trumpets (when not even mentioned), but then, when locusts are mentioned in connection with a trumpet, they are commanded not to hurt "the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree" (5th Trumpet/Rev. 9:4).  Do you see what I mean?

Well...yeah. It's at hand when the other conditions exist.

Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

16Is not the meat cut off before our eyes, [yea], joy and gladness from the house of our God?

Verse 16 is a rhetorical question. (yes, call me on that! :)) The 'at hand' is when verse 16 occurs. And remember Joel is seeing the future in a vision. It's not an at hand in real time, it's an at hand in a vision of the future.

Hello Diaste,

Okay, so, I won't call you on that.  But, how do you arrive at this?

On 4/28/2021 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

I don't see an issue with Joel 1 or Rev 8-9. As I pointed out the reference to the destructive power of the pestilence is allegorical to the army mentioned here:

"6For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth [are] the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast [it] away; the branches thereof are made white."

In your thinking, are you taking it that what John saw was like an "army" of meteors with an asteroid kicker?  Also, how do the "locusts" John saw go from being commanded not to "hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree" (Rev. 9:4) to effecting what Joel saw?

On 4/28/2021 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

And what's to say the 1st and 5th trump occur do not occur a year or two apart? There is a 7 year end of the age span. The 1st trump occurs early on, in the first year and it's still two full years until the midpoint. And who's to say the 5th trump doesn't occur in the last half of the week, maybe 4 years after the 1st trump?

Nothing is said or even hinted at about Daniel's 70th Week, a seven year period, or any 3-1/2 year period until the time frame of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 11:2-3), just after the "little book" of Daniel is seen open (Rev. 10:1-2ff with Daniel 12:4, 8-10).  As things shape up to me, there is some pretty awesome evidence that Daniel' 70th Week will not begin until it is revealed to begin, as Scripture indicates in Revelation 11:1-3.

On 4/28/2021 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

I would argue the 5th trump only occurs after the midpoint.

On the basis of what?

On 4/28/2021 at 4:49 AM, Diaste said:

I don't know the exact timing of the events of the end of the age; no one does. I'm arguing from the position of the concurrent successive nature of seals and trumps in conjunction; with the bowl events at the end after the 7th trump, within the effects of the 7th seal. However that shakes out I don't know.

How it shakes out, IMHO, is this, based upon the very apparent chronological order of The Revelation:

     1. The 1st Seal is opened, and John writes what happened. <---(period)

     2. The 2nd Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

I submit that we have scriptural, historical, and logical evidences that these seals were opened in the first century and that the horsemen of these seals have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since---even until now---doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.

     5. The 5th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

The 5th Seal may be opened now as well.  We do not know.  But, there have been millions of martyrs that can rightly cry, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood..." (Rev. 6:10).  Also, the closer the time draws near to the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, the more relevant their cry will become to "rest yet for a little season" (Rev. 6:11), which means that this seal may presently be open as well---and I believe that it is.

     6. The 6th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

In a nutshell, with the opening of the 6th Seal, Christ will make a sign appearance (Matt. 24:30), and the resurrection and the rapture will occur.  The opening of the 6th Seal is imminent.  It also marks the day of the beginning of the Day of the Lord, as the 7th Seal will be opened later, the same day.  For the world, Christ will have certainly come as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44).  Moreover, for the world, the Day of the Lord will have certainly come "as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2-3).

     7. The 7th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

After about 30 minutes, John "saw the seven angels which stood before God;  and to them were given seven trumpets" (Rev. 8:2)

     1. The 1st Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     2. The 2nd Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     5. The 5th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     6. The 6th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     7. The 7th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, John records a summary overview given by the 24 elders concerning what this period will hold (Rev. 11:18).  Chapters 12 through 20 expound this overview.  In the timeframe of this period, John "saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues" (Rev. 15:1).  Later, he "heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1).

     1. The 1st Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     2. The 2nd Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     5. The 5th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     6. The 6th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     7. The 7th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

In Revelation 17, we see the judgment of the "great whore" (Rev. 17:1) expounded.  In Revelation 18, we see the judgment of "Babylon" (Rev. 18:2) expounded.  In Revelation 19, we see Christ's Second Advent expounded.  In Revelation 20, we see Christ's Reign and the Last Judgment expounded.  Revelation 20:15 marks the last verse of the 7th Trumpet period.  Whereas we have an account of when the first "woe" will be "past" (Rev. 11:12) and the second "woe" will be "past" (Rev. 11:14), there is no account to be found of when the third "woe" will be past.  For the unsaved, for whom all the woes are, this "woe" will never be past.  Not ever...

Finally, time will give way to eternity, where the saved will dwell forever with God and all the hosts of Heaven, world without end, Happily Ever After! (Me) (You)

Got to go.  Just remember, The Trump of God may sound before I push Submit Repl...

Edited February 6, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

 

 

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

In your thinking, are you taking it that what John saw was like an "army" of meteors with an asteroid kicker?  Also, how do the "locusts" John saw go from being commanded not to "hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree" (Rev. 9:4) to effecting what Joel saw?

I'm not thinking that, not even sure what you mean. But again it seems clear the army in Joel 1:6-7 is the manifestation of the allegorical pestilence of Joel 1:1-4

The word of the Lord says, "For a nation has invaded My land, powerful and  without number; its teeth are the teeth of a lion, and its fangs are the fangs of a lioness. 7It has laid waste My grapevine and splintered My fig tree. It has stripped off the bark and thrown it away; the branches have turned white."

This nation has done to the land of Israel and it's people what the locust does to crops; stripped it bare, laid waste. The locust reference in 1-4 is a picture of the complete destruction of which the people would be familiar and this army is likened to that destruction. It's also something that has never happened before as in v 2; "Hear this, O elders; and give ear, all who dwell in the land. Has anything like this ever happened in your days or in the days of your fathers?"

Another rhetorical question as the answer is clearly, No.

I don't see Joel 1:4 as having anything to do with locusts. It's allegory. Not every word in scripture is literal. The concepts of the allegory are literal, the manifestation is literal, even the definition of the word 'locust' is literal, but it refers to the destruction of the great, fierce army, not literal locusts. The army is like locusts in their number and are irresistibly destructive.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

Nothing is said or even hinted at about Daniel's 70th Week, a seven year period, or any 3-1/2 year period until the time frame of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 11:2-3), just after the "little book" of Daniel is seen open (Rev. 10:1-2ff with Daniel 12:4, 8-10).  As things shape up to me, there is some pretty awesome evidence that Daniel' 70th Week will not begin until it is revealed to begin, as Scripture indicates in Revelation 11:1-3.

Revelation is not a strict chronology. There are chronological elements such as seals, trumps, and bowls but the rest of the prophecy cannot be taken to run like a calendar or clock unless indicated as such by the text. Revelation is written more like a contemporary novel; the story is introduced by overview or event, then regresses to detail the characters and events that fall with the previous overview or event.

For instance, there is nothing in Rev 13 that demands the events and characters of Rev 13 must, and only ever, follow Ch.12. Not one bit of evidence suggests this is at the beginning or the midpoint or even in between. In fact there must be overlap as if all the periods of 42 months mentioned in Revelation were chronological it would add up to 14 years. 

This means the time the woman is in the wilderness, the time of the two witnesses, and the reign of the power of the beast and the trampling of the city must overlap in some fashion. From what I see the trampling of the city and the time of the witnesses are in the first half, and the power of the beast and the woman fleeing to the wilderness is the second half, generally. Even then there is nothing saying a 42 month period must begin at the beginning or at the midpoint. 

It may be the woman is nourished in the wilderness for 1260 days before the return of Jesus and the time frame has no correlation to the beginning or midpoint. The KJV puts this 1260 days as 'time, times; and half a time'; properly that is a 'season' and not a specific length of time. Then at some point the woman flees to safety and is cared for till the return of the King. But this is just a notion of what could be. It's much neater to have this happen at a specific point for a specified length of time. Maybe. Maybe not. We aren't really going to know till after it's all over I suppose.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

On the basis of what?

Because of what Jesus said in Matt 24. The end of the age and the details and information about the events and players are spread across many centuries and several books; there is way more to it than Daniel and Revelation, and even the Gospels. Jesus answered the question of the disciples, "What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" with what follows that in Matt 24, maybe even Matt 25. So in Matt 24 Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened"

This is an unprecedented moment in future history occurring after the midpoint.

5th Seal

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The portion in bold is problematic for a 2000 year fulfillment. What does this refer to? Is it simply martyrdom or the manner of death? It's the manner of death. The Greek reads, '...about to be killed as like they were...' 

Killed here is modified by 'as like they were', This refers to the same manner of death, not the death itself. It's not convincing 'killed as they were' is because of the testimony as the Word doesn't say they were killed 'because' of something, it says 'as they were'. It's also noteworthy 'killed' is modified by 'as they were' meaning not simply the death, but what type. 

It's not convincing this is martyrdom from 2000 years as martyrdom was occurring since sometime shortly after the fall when Cain slew Abel.  Paul lists the manners of death of many martyrs before the 1st century. Hebrews 11:36-38

This is also a time of unprecedented martyrdom where a great number of martyrs meet a death all in the same manner. 

So the 5th seal isn't covering centuries of martyrdom but a time frame where a manner of death is required corresponding to the time 'such as was not nor ever shall be' after the midpoint.

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

How it shakes out, IMHO, is this, based upon the very apparent chronological order of The Revelation:

     1. The 1st Seal is opened, and John writes what happened. <---(period)

     2. The 2nd Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

I submit that we have scriptural, historical, and logical evidences that these seals were opened in the first century and that the horsemen of these seals have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since---even until now---doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.

     5. The 5th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

The 5th Seal may be opened now as well.  We do not know.  But, there have been millions of martyrs that can rightly cry, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood..." (Rev. 6:10).  Also, the closer the time draws near to the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, the more relevant their cry will become to "rest yet for a little season" (Rev. 6:11), which means that this seal may presently be open as well---and I believe that it is.

     6. The 6th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

In a nutshell, with the opening of the 6th Seal, Christ will make a sign appearance (Matt. 24:30), and the resurrection and the rapture will occur.  The opening of the 6th Seal is imminent.  It also marks the day of the beginning of the Day of the Lord, as the 7th Seal will be opened later, the same day.  For the world, Christ will have certainly come as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44).  Moreover, for the world, the Day of the Lord will have certainly come "as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2-3).

     7. The 7th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

Are you forgetting Rev is a word of prophecy? What prophecy do you know which came to pass in the minute it was given? And isn't this interpretation far too general? Really...2000 years of ongoing fulfillment when Daniel limits this to either 7 years or 3.5? And even if the Daniel prophecy doesn't begin until Rev 11, as you say, how would anyone be able to point to a fulfillment? Do you really believe the conditions of the past 2000 years are the answer when it's clear those same conditions have existed since the Fall? What has changed or is so remarkable we can assay an unequivocal fulfillment? We can't. It's too general. 

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

After about 30 minutes, John "saw the seven angels which stood before God;  and to them were given seven trumpets" (Rev. 8:2)

     1. The 1st Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     2. The 2nd Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     5. The 5th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     6. The 6th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     7. The 7th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, John records a summary overview given by the 24 elders concerning what this period will hold (Rev. 11:18).  Chapters 12 through 20 expound this overview.  In the timeframe of this period, John "saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues" (Rev. 15:1).  Later, he "heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1).

No. It's not 30 minutes. That has nothing to do with "2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." 

When John records chronology the language is:

3And when he had opened the second seal,

5And when he had opened the third seal,

7And when he had opened the fourth seal,

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, 

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,

7The first angel sounded, 

8And the second angel sounded, 

10And the third angel sounded, 

12And the fourth angel sounded,

Or:

Revelation 7:1 After this I saw 

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked and saw 

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked and saw 

Revelation 18:1 After this I saw 

It could follow that the 7 angels that were given the 7 trumps immediately follow the 7th seal but the language isn't there to prove it. 

This demand the 7 trumps follow the 7th seal is inaccurate as the contrast in the language used by John in the obvious chronologies doesn't appear in Rev 8, "1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

Not 'after this', just that John 'saw'. 

11 hours ago, not an echo said:

     1. The 1st Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     2. The 2nd Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     5. The 5th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     6. The 6th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     7. The 7th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

In Revelation 17, we see the judgment of the "great whore" (Rev. 17:1) expounded.  In Revelation 18, we see the judgment of "Babylon" (Rev. 18:2) expounded.  In Revelation 19, we see Christ's Second Coming expounded.  In Revelation 20, we see Christ's Reign and the Last Judgment expounded.  Revelation 20:15 marks the last verse of the 7th Trumpet period.  Whereas we have an account of when the first "woe" will be "past" (Rev. 11:12) and the second "woe" will be "past" (Rev. 11:14), there is no account to be found of when the third "woe" will be past.  For the unsaved, for whom all the woes are, this "woe" will never be past.  Not ever...

Finally, time will give way to eternity, where the saved will dwell forever with God and all the hosts of Heaven, world without end, Happily Ever After! (Me) (You)

Got to go.  Just remember, The Trump of God may sound before I push Submit Repl

My dude....imminence is a farce. 'No prophesied events can occur before' I believe is the classic pretrib requirement of imminence. You present 5 prophesied events called Seals. What's up with that?

[luigi]

On 3/23/2021 at 9:10 PM, not an echo said:

I was going to write the following in response to a post on another thread, but I didn't want to be a party to possibly derailing a thread that wasn't mine.  Moreover, I certainly believe that this subject deserves a thread all it's own. 

So, is the Trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 8:2 with 11:15)?  I think everyone is in agreement that the Trump of God is also "the Last Trump" spoken of in I Corinthians 15:52.  But, is this Last Trump/Trump of God the 7th Trumpet?  It is quite understandable how that it could be said that the 7th Trumpet is at least a last trumpet, for it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  It is also quite understandable how that one might put forth that the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, for again, it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  But, is this the Trump of God, or THE LAST Trump?

Is this thread about splitting hairs?  If I didn't know much about the Bible, I would think so!  But, there are solid scriptural reasons to consider this question.  For example, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He speaks of a trumpet that is commonly accepted as being the Trump of God, or the Last Trump.  In Matthew 24, He says:

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in verse 31 happens during an event that He describes in verses 29-31, an event that certainly appears to find its fulfillment in connection with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:12-7:17.  Further, this "great sound of a trumpet" is commonly accepted to be the Trump of God, or THE Last Trump.  All of this then poses a relevant question:  If the event Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 finds its fulfillment in connection with the the opening of the 6th Seal, how can the 7th Trumpet spoken of much later in Revelation 11:15 be the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of, or the Trump of God?  My answer:  It isn't---and the reasoning is quite logical.  Let me explain, and I hope you will suffer me to reminisce a little...

When I was in high school (back in the 70's), I loved to go with my friend and his family to the dirt track races.  Every weekend we would go, and of course, we had our favorite race car drivers.  Our biggest favorite was Jessie Ladd, #77.  He won a lot , but not always .  Man, them races were so close, we often didn't know who was going to be the winner, most times, not even up to the last lap.  Often, even in turn four, it would be neck and neck and we wouldn't know the winner till they actually crossed the finish line.  Those were the days, over 45 years ago!

I've got to tell you that when Jessie won the race, that was a big, big night for us!   And on Monday (if school was still in), we would tell our buddies that Jessie won the main Saturday night.  We could even talk smack about how he was the one who got to drive the last lap.  Someone who had never been to the races might remark, "Well, duh, don't everyone get to drive the last lap?"  Of course, the answer would be that the last lap we were talking about was the Victory Lap.  What's that?  That's where the winning driver pulls up in front of the flagger's stand and gets presented with the checkered flag.  The winner would then drive slowly around the track, waving that flag, his fans cheering him on (I just got a tear in my eye, reminiscing---seriously).

I've shared all the foregoing to say this:  At the races, there was always the last lap of the race, which was one in a series, AND, there was always the Victory Lap.  Always.  You know, it goes without saying that there was a lot of difference in the last lap of the race and the Victory Lap.  On the nights that Jessie won, the Victory Lap was Jessie's Lap.  That was THE LAST LAP.  It was in a category all by itself.

I submit that the Trump of God---THE LAST TRUMP---is in a category all by itself.  That Last Trump is not the last in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is.  You know, I may be wrong about it.  But, with this understanding, a lot of prophetic puzzle pieces sure come together nicely for me---like by design.

This thread is part of A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Here's a link to that master thread, which also shows the other threads I have started relating to the subject of my different interpretation, or view (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  I wish I had the time to start---and keep up with---all the threads that I have had on my mind that relate to my view.  For now, it is little by little, the best I can, until the Lord sees fit differently.  With Christian charity (I Cor. 13:4-7), not an echo

I also think the seventh trumpet sounding, occurs over a period of time, as indicated in Revelation 10:7. I would therefore also think the first six angels sounding warnings occur over a period of time.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

[not an echo]

On 4/28/2021 at 5:07 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/27/2021 at 12:42 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your first sentence, I would have to say yes, as far as the normal that we know, which has been the normal for some 2000 years now.  This will all be over with the opening of the 6th Seal.  In accord with Joel's prophecy, spoken by Peter on the Day of Pentecost, "the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable Day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:20).  This is fulfilled to the day, as we see these celestial phenomena occur with the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12) and hear the cry of the world, "For the great Day of His Wrath is come;  and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17).  In accord with my interpretation that the 7th Seal can be opened the same day as the 6th Seal, the Day of the Lord will have begun indeed.

When the connection is made between the whole of the event of the opening of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:12-7:17) and Jesus' words in Matthew 24:29-31, we can understand that it is the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30/Rev. 6:15-16) that will occur at this time, as well as the sounding of the Trump of God (Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:16).  The resurrection and the rapture will happen in concert with the sounding of this trumpet (Matt. 24:31; I Thess. 4:16-17), likewise, just before the beginning of the Day of the Lord, in close harmony with Paul's words (I Thess. 5:1-3ff).

Agreed.

Hello Diaste,

I am always reassured when we are in agreement on what the Bible teaches.  I believe it would bespeak true Christian brotherhood for me to hope that we will agree more and more, the more we truly understand each other.  Now, if I can just get you to understand that what I have written above does not happen in connection with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet...

[not an echo]

On 4/28/2021 at 5:07 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

This same day that the last seal of the Seven Sealed Book is opened, preparations will begin to be made for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, until all is ready (Rev. 8:2-9:21).  When all is ready, we see "a little book open" (Rev. 10:1-2), which I interpret to be the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Upon John's digesting of Daniel's prophecies (Rev. 10:8-10), we immediately see evidence of the manifestation of the Abomination of Desolation (Rev. 11:1; II Thess. 2:4; Matt. 24:15), and the two 3-1/2 year periods of Daniel's 70th Week (Rev. 11:2-3; Dan. 9:27). 

Hmm...I just can't see the seals as paralleling 2000 years.

First of all, I am going to reply from the understanding that it is the first four seals that you are talking about "paralleling 2000 years."  I believe we are in agreement that the first four seals parallel the opening portion of Jesus' Olivet Discourse (as is commonly accepted).  We are just not in agreement as to when what Jesus said would happen would happen (or begin to happen).

So, I want to ask you Diaste, those 2nd person pronouns Jesus uses when He is speaking to His disciples, what do you make of them?  Like, from Matthew 24:

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

and...

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:  see that ye be not troubled...

and...

 9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:  and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

and...there's lots of others.

I know that any who hold to the preterist persuasion are probably thinking that they are glad to hear me broach this question.  However, I am not of the preterist persuasion.  But, there is a non-preterist persuasion understanding to my question, which supports my interpretations.  For now, I'm interested in what your answer to my question is.  I will give you my answer when I get to your reply.  You have my word on it.  Hint:  I will be making a parallel that I believe any American will be able to relate to.  Man, that might be too good of a hint... 

[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

In your thinking, are you taking it that what John saw was like an "army" of meteors with an asteroid kicker?  Also, how do the "locusts" John saw go from being commanded not to "hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree" (Rev. 9:4) to effecting what Joel saw?

I'm not thinking that, not even sure what you mean. But again it seems clear the army in Joel 1:6-7 is the manifestation of the allegorical pestilence of Joel 1:1-4

The word of the Lord says, "For a nation has invaded My land, powerful and  without number; its teeth are the teeth of a lion, and its fangs are the fangs of a lioness. 7It has laid waste My grapevine and splintered My fig tree. It has stripped off the bark and thrown it away; the branches have turned white."

This nation has done to the land of Israel and it's people what the locust does to crops; stripped it bare, laid waste. The locust reference in 1-4 is a picture of the complete destruction of which the people would be familiar and this army is likened to that destruction. It's also something that has never happened before as in v 2; "Hear this, O elders; and give ear, all who dwell in the land. Has anything like this ever happened in your days or in the days of your fathers?"

Another rhetorical question as the answer is clearly, No.

I don't see Joel 1:4 as having anything to do with locusts. It's allegory. Not every word in scripture is literal. The concepts of the allegory are literal, the manifestation is literal, even the definition of the word 'locust' is literal, but it refers to the destruction of the great, fierce army, not literal locusts. The army is like locusts in their number and are irresistibly destructive.

What I mean connects with what you have maintained concerning this prophecy of Joel's and the 1st and 3rd trumpets.  You said in an earlier post, "I don't see an issue with Joel 1 or Rev 8-9.  As I pointed out the reference to the destructive power of the pestilence is allegorical to the army mentioned here:"  Then, to complete your point, you wrote out verses 6-7, from Joel chapter one.

To what we find in The Revelation, with the 1st Trumpet, it is "hail and fire" (Rev. 8:7) causing the destruction, which many see as an extensive meteor shower---and I would agree.  With the 3rd Trumpet, it is "a great star" (Rev. 8:10) causing the destruction, which many see as a great asteroid---and again, I would agree.  It was based upon the connections that you make between the destruction of Joel 1 and Rev 8-9 that I asked, "In your thinking, are you taking it that what John saw was like an 'army' of meteors with an asteroid kicker?"  Kinda like we learned in math:  If A = B and B = C, then A = C.

Hey, Diaste, I agree with everything you say BEYOND the first sentence of your above post ("I'm not thinking that, not even sure what you mean").  I would be hard pressed to say it any better than you have.  I just can't agree with you that it connects whatsoever with the 1st and 3rd trumpets.  I ain't even close to seeing that.

Just kinda curious.  Have you never made a connection between what Joel says in chapter 1 and his day?

[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Nothing is said or even hinted at about Daniel's 70th Week, a seven year period, or any 3-1/2 year period until the time frame of the 6th Trumpet (Rev. 11:2-3), just after the "little book" of Daniel is seen open (Rev. 10:1-2ff with Daniel 12:4, 8-10).  As things shape up to me, there is some pretty awesome evidence that Daniel' 70th Week will not begin until it is revealed to begin, as Scripture indicates in Revelation 11:1-3.

Revelation is not a strict chronology. There are chronological elements such as seals, trumps, and bowls but the rest of the prophecy cannot be taken to run like a calendar or clock unless indicated as such by the text. Revelation is written more like a contemporary novel; the story is introduced by overview or event, then regresses to detail the characters and events that fall with the previous overview or event.

For instance, there is nothing in Rev 13 that demands the events and characters of Rev 13 must, and only ever, follow Ch.12. Not one bit of evidence suggests this is at the beginning or the midpoint or even in between. In fact there must be overlap as if all the periods of 42 months mentioned in Revelation were chronological it would add up to 14 years. 

This means the time the woman is in the wilderness, the time of the two witnesses, and the reign of the power of the beast and the trampling of the city must overlap in some fashion. From what I see the trampling of the city and the time of the witnesses are in the first half, and the power of the beast and the woman fleeing to the wilderness is the second half, generally. Even then there is nothing saying a 42 month period must begin at the beginning or at the midpoint. 

It may be the woman is nourished in the wilderness for 1260 days before the return of Jesus and the time frame has no correlation to the beginning or midpoint. The KJV puts this 1260 days as 'time, times; and half a time'; properly that is a 'season' and not a specific length of time. Then at some point the woman flees to safety and is cared for till the return of the King. But this is just a notion of what could be. It's much neater to have this happen at a specific point for a specified length of time. Maybe. Maybe not. We aren't really going to know till after it's all over I suppose.

One last thing before I turn in for the night.  Concerning the first sentence of your first paragraph, I believe that The Revelation is laid out in a wonderfully Divine chronological order, and much more strict in its chronology than the world of scholarship has yet discovered.  And listen, I'm not necessarily down on scholarship.  God just never made that the key to discovering the truths of Scripture.  Concerning the second sentence of your first paragraph, I agree.  Concerning the third sentence of your first paragraph, I again agree---as long as it is understood that this is the case with the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet. 

I believe we can all agree that a very important consideration in the study of any end time view is the question of the order in which The Revelation was given to John.  I have long been inclined to believe that it was given in true chronological order.

For example, it is quite evident that the first 10 chapters are in the strictest chronological order possible.  One thing leads into another thing, which leads into another thing, and so forth throughout the first 10 chapters---without fail.  No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Basically, there is the introduction, followed by the letters to the seven churches, followed by a vision of God and the Lamb, followed by the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, followed by the sounding of the first six (of seven) trumpets, followed by John's account of an angel that he saw, who had in his hand "a little book open" (Rev. 10:2).  Following is an illustration of how straightforward the first 10 chapters are laid out:

After chapter 10, there is a difference in the manner in which John records things.  This difference is closely related to what he writes concerning the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19, for what he here records is like a concise overview of what will be taking place throughout the next several chapters.  More precisely, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that takes in everything John sees from the time of its sounding in chapter 11 until after the Last Judgment in chapter 20.  In accord with the way the Bible's chapters are divided (which I attribute to the hand of God!), it appears that after John is given the brief overview of this period, he uses an overlapping method of recording all of the details of it---again, without fail.  While the order of this section is still chronological, portions of some events are revealed from different angles along the way, making for some overlaps of information, as could be expected.  Because of this, it is not quite as simple to follow the order of this section, but there is a definite pattern and progression of events.  A survey of the details given in each chapter covering the 7th Trumpet period will show that, aside from the mentioned overlaps of some information, the events recorded in this half of The Revelation are also in strict chronological order---just like with the first half.  Following is an illustration of the overlapping method in which chapters 11 through 20 are laid out:

Finally, the last two chapters of The Revelation also continue chronologically, but as a whole, and reveal John's vision of God's Heaven and the conclusion of The Revelation, as well as The Bible.

Simplified further, that's 10 chapters with no overlapping pattern, 10 chapters with an overlapping pattern, and 2 chapters as a unit.

Simplified further, and very memorable, that's 10, 10, and 2.

The Revelation has a most awesome structure.  And for me, once seen, it can't be unseen.

I hope you will really consider this closely Diaste.  It is going to be found to hold, and it is a big key to understanding The Revelation.  I had felt that you were probably aware of my thread concerning this, but with your words concerning "overlap" in the second and third paragraph of your post, I guess not.  Of course there is overlap , but with a logical chronological progression.  I copied and pasted the biggest part of the above from my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation.  Now I'm going to go grab the link to it.  After that, I'm gonna do a scan and see if you ever posted anything there.  Then, finally, I'm gonna turn in for the night, unless the Trump of God sounds first.  In that case, I'll never have to concern myself with turning in for the night again...

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/)

Edited March 13, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustrations

[not an echo]

Hey Diaste, the program wouldn't let me edit this in to my previous post.  Don't know why.  Anyway, I saw where you had been many times to the thread I spoke of there.  It's been a long time, even for me.  Only problem I remembered having with it was the malady of thread derailment.  One of these days, maybe I'll find the time to get it back on its tracks.  Got to turn in...

  Even so, come, Lord Jesus.  The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.  Amen.

Edited March 13, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

15 hours ago, not an echo said:

First of all, I am going to reply from the understanding that it is the first four seals that you are talking about "paralleling 2000 years."  I believe we are in agreement that the first four seals parallel the opening portion of Jesus' Olivet Discourse (as is commonly accepted).  We are just not in agreement as to when what Jesus said would happen would happen (or begin to happen).

So, I want to ask you Diaste, those 2nd person pronouns Jesus uses when He is speaking to His disciples, what do you make of them?  Like, from Matthew 24:

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

and...

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:  see that ye be not troubled...

and...

 9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:  and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

 

As if to say Jesus was only speaking to the audience present and no one else? And therefore by arbitrary division of Matt 24 Jesus was speaking to 70 AD or the Ascension, or some other moment, as the beginning of the last week? Or that Matt 24 doesn't parallel Rev 6 or Dan 9 in it's information, timing and layout and then the seals can begin anytime? 

And isn't my first question setting up a conflict with many such 2nd person pronouns used throughout the NT?  Why would it be that we can lay claim to 2nd person pronouns over the course over 2000 years but in select parts Matt 24 we shun them?

If this is the case then only those who were present at the time will be a apart of the coming of the Son of Man:

"So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it." 

The Lesson of the Fig Tree:

Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened

And we don't need to pay attention to this either:

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come"

Then it must have all happened in the sight and life span of those present. This means Jesus must have already returned.

So then what of all the ignorance of the 2nd person pronouns used by Paul in the Epistles? Those must be for only the present audience. Why do we even have the bible then? 

"You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise."

The above from Galatians 3 is then for whom? Can't be for us, we weren't there.

And for whom is this?

"“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”"

 

Edited May 4, 2021 by Diaste