Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

One last thing before I turn in for the night.  Concerning the first sentence of your first paragraph, I believe that The Revelation is laid out in a wonderfully Divine chronological order, and much more strict in its chronology than the world of scholarship has yet discovered.  And listen, I'm not necessarily down on scholarship.  God just never made that the key to discovering the truths of Scripture.  Concerning the second sentence of your first paragraph, I agree.  Concerning the third sentence of your first paragraph, I again agree---as long as it is understood that this is the case with the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet. 

I believe we can all agree that a very important consideration in the study of any end time view is the question of the order in which The Revelation was given to John.  I have long been inclined to believe that it was given in true chronological order.

For example, it is quite evident that the first 10 chapters are in the strictest chronological order possible.  One thing leads into another thing, which leads into another thing, and so forth throughout the first 10 chapters---without fail.  No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.  Basically, there is the introduction, followed by the letters to the seven churches, followed by a vision of God and the Lamb, followed by the opening of the seals of the Seven Sealed Book, followed by the sounding of the first six (of seven) trumpets, followed by John's account of an angel that he saw, who had in his hand "a little book open."  Following is an illustration of how straightforward the first 10 chapters are laid out:

                            

After chapter 10, there is a difference in the manner in which John records things.  This difference is closely related to what he writes concerning the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11:15-19, for what he here records is like a concise overview of what will be taking place throughout the next several chapters.  More precisely, the 7th Trumpet heralds a period that takes in everything John sees from the time of its sounding in chapter 11 until after the Last Judgment in chapter 20.  In accord with the way the Bible's chapters are divided (which I attribute to the hand of God!), it appears that after John is given the brief overview of this period, he uses an overlapping method of recording all of the details of it---again, without fail.  While the order of this section is still chronological, portions of some events are revealed from different angles along the way, making for some overlaps of information, as could be expected.  Because of this, it is not quite as simple to follow the order of this section, but there is a definite pattern and progression of events.  A survey of the details given in each chapter covering the 7th Trumpet period will show that, aside from the mentioned overlaps of some information, the events recorded in this half of The Revelation are also in strict chronological order---just like with the first half.  Following is an illustration of the overlapping method in which chapters 11 through 20 are laid out:

                                 

Finally, the last two chapters of The Revelation also continue chronologically, but as a whole, and reveal John's vision of God's Heaven and the conclusion of The Revelation, as well as The Bible.

                                                                                  

Simplified further, that's 10 chapters with no overlapping pattern, 10 chapters with an overlapping pattern, and 2 chapters as a unit.

Simplified further, and very memorable, that's 10, 10, and 2.

The Revelation has a most awesome structure.  And for me, once seen, it can't be unseen.

I hope you will really consider this closely Diaste.  It is going to be found to hold, and it is a big key to understanding The Revelation.  I had felt that you were probably aware of my thread concerning this, but with your words concerning "overlap" in the second and third paragraph of your post, I guess not.  Of course there is overlap , but with a logical chronological progression.  I copied and pasted the biggest part of the above from my thread, The Chronological Order of The Revelation.  Now I'm going to go grab the link to it.  After that, I'm gonna do a scan and see if you ever posted anything there.  Then, finally, I'm gonna turn in for the night, unless the Trump of God sounds first.  In that case, I'll never have to concern myself with turning in for the night again...

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/)

Yes, I have said so numerous times. I see a concurrent successive layout and everything written in Rev is under the umbrella of the seals e.g.; the 6th seal and the 7th trump occur in successive order. I don't think one can ignore this knowing the 7th Trump is the last trump in a series at the end of the age in the context of Jesus' return, and spoken of by Paul as the harbinger of the gathering. 

We can go on and on about whether the trump of God or the last trump is the same as the 7th trump or not, but there isn't a viable alternative for the last trump, and the trump of God, as one and the same as the 7th trump of Revelation.

There is no where else in the halls of holy writ where any such trump appears in the context of the end of the age, Jesus' return, and the gathering, except for the 7th trump of Revelation. 

This idea makes perfect sense knowing we are gathered at the last trump and that Jesus' return is at the 6th seal. This conforms to what is said about the order of events in Matt 24 as well: the signs appear, Jesus appears, the nations mourn, the angels are sent with a trumpet call, the elect are gathered.

So tell me...Where else do we see a series of trumps associated with Jesus' return, the gathering and the end of the age?

 

 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

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On the basis of what?

Because of what Jesus said in Matt 24. The end of the age and the details and information about the events and players are spread across many centuries and several books; there is way more to it than Daniel and Revelation, and even the Gospels. Jesus answered the question of the disciples, "What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" with what follows that in Matt 24, maybe even Matt 25. So in Matt 24 Jesus said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened"

This is an unprecedented moment in future history occurring after the midpoint.

5th Seal

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

The portion in bold is problematic for a 2000 year fulfillment. What does this refer to? Is it simply martyrdom or the manner of death? It's the manner of death. The Greek reads, '...about to be killed as like they were...' 

Killed here is modified by 'as like they were', This refers to the same manner of death, not the death itself. It's not convincing 'killed as they were' is because of the testimony as the Word doesn't say they were killed 'because' of something, it says 'as they were'. It's also noteworthy 'killed' is modified by 'as they were' meaning not simply the death, but what type. 

It's not convincing this is martyrdom from 2000 years as martyrdom was occurring since sometime shortly after the fall when Cain slew Abel.  Paul lists the manners of death of many martyrs before the 1st century. Hebrews 11:36-38

This is also a time of unprecedented martyrdom where a great number of martyrs meet a death all in the same manner. 

So the 5th seal isn't covering centuries of martyrdom but a time frame where a manner of death is required corresponding to the time 'such as was not nor ever shall be' after the midpoint.

Hello Diaste,

Maybe I can get in an installment this afternoon...

For clarification, my question, "On the basis of what?" concerned your statement, "I would argue the 5th trump only occurs after the midpoint."  Concerning your post as a whole, I don't understand why you would dismiss or overlook the possibility that "as they were" (Rev. 6:11) is merely an explanation to these martyred that more were going to face the same thing they had faced, the thing of being "slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (Rev. 6:9).

Also, whereas I have recently mentioned something about the common belief that the first four seals parallel the opening portion of Jesus' Olivet Discourse, it is commonly, if not altogether, missed that the 4th Seal concerns martyrdom, which interpretation is reinforced by what we see with the seal that follows---the 5th Seal.  I have threads focusing on both of these.  Hope you will look afresh at my opening posts for these threads:

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250955-the-fifth-seal-and-the-cry-of-the-martyrs/)

I trust that you will appreciate my affirmation that my interpretation(s) may be wrong.  Of course, I say this knowing that yours may be wrong too.  Hey, we are trying to interpret prophecy.  And, I believe we are both seeking the truth.  If not, why would we be bothering?  Well, I can think of why some might be.  Anyway, I'm fine with looking at how you understand things.  It is certainly on my heart to share how I understand things.  Hopefully, we will all come to a better understanding as a result of our trying to clarify our beliefs.  One thing with our prophetic puzzle---every piece has to fit.  Every piece.  I must say, the fit of the pieces that I have in place have sure made an interesting and enlightening picture for me.

Just a little sidebar on what you put in bold above, "except those days should be shortened..." (Matt. 24:22).  Do you remember anyone in the forum family suggesting that this may connect with what results with the sounding of the 4th Trumpet (Rev. 8:12)?  Generally speaking, we know that the less light hours there are, the longer one can effectively hide.  Seems this could certainly lend to God's means of accomplishing what we find in Matthew 24:22.

Edited May 4, 2021 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

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How it shakes out, IMHO, is this, based upon the very apparent chronological order of The Revelation:

     1. The 1st Seal is opened, and John writes what happened. <---(period)

     2. The 2nd Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

I submit that we have scriptural, historical, and logical evidences that these seals were opened in the first century and that the horsemen of these seals have been riding down through the corridors of history ever since---even until now---doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.

     5. The 5th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

The 5th Seal may be opened now as well.  We do not know.  But, there have been millions of martyrs that can rightly cry, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood..." (Rev. 6:10).  Also, the closer the time draws near to the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week, the more relevant their cry will become to "rest yet for a little season" (Rev. 6:11), which means that this seal may presently be open as well---and I believe that it is.

     6. The 6th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

In a nutshell, with the opening of the 6th Seal, Christ will make a sign appearance (Matt. 24:30), and the resurrection and the rapture will occur.  The opening of the 6th Seal is imminent.  It also marks the day of the beginning of the Day of the Lord, as the 7th Seal will be opened later, the same day.  For the world, Christ will have certainly come as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-44).  Moreover, for the world, the Day of the Lord will have certainly come "as a thief in the night" (I Thess. 5:2-3).

     7. The 7th Seal is opened, and John writes what happened.

Are you forgetting Rev is a word of prophecy? What prophecy do you know which came to pass in the minute it was given? And isn't this interpretation far too general? Really...2000 years of ongoing fulfillment when Daniel limits this to either 7 years or 3.5? And even if the Daniel prophecy doesn't begin until Rev 11, as you say, how would anyone be able to point to a fulfillment? Do you really believe the conditions of the past 2000 years are the answer when it's clear those same conditions have existed since the Fall? What has changed or is so remarkable we can assay an unequivocal fulfillment? We can't. It's too general. 

Sometimes when I feel that I may have over-simplified, I find that I have not.  If you are really, really serious with your first two questions, it would seem that the context in which something is written does not have a standout effect on your understanding.  I used the pattern of "John writes what happened" throughout my post, consistently with each of the seven seals, each of the seven trumpets, and each of the seven vials, to show the simplicity of the systematic structure in which The Revelation was given.  Said another way:

     1. The 1st Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

     2. The 2nd Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

     3. The 3rd Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

Now Diaste, I'm going to bet that you weren't being really, really serious, but were being a little bit facetious, so, I'm going to stop there.  Really, I'm needing to get me a shower and hit the sack after while, if you know what I mean.  You do make me wonder sometimes.  And sometimes, I can hear you when you are snickering, all the way out there in Wyoming.

I've been thinking of late, "There's not even any need to develop a hermeneutic for the chronology of The Revelation.  It's right in front of us.  It has been made so difficult by so many for so long that the simplicity of it has been deemed too simple.

Concerning your third and fourth sentences ("And isn't this interpretation..." and "Really...2000 years..."), where do you find it concerning The Revelation that "Daniel limits this to either 7 years or 3.5?"  We agree that Daniel's 70th Week is limited to 7 years, or two 3-1/2 year periods.  But, where does Daniel say that in The Revelation this begins with the opening of the 1st Seal?  He don't.  Rather, let me suggest that John records for us when Daniel's 70th Week will begin---At Revelation 11:1, right after the world's stage is fully prepared for it, right after we see the "little book" of Daniel "open" (Rev. 10 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

Yeah, there are difficulties in The Revelation.  But, I would suggest that the biggest ones are the ones that have been imposed upon it by all the schools of higher learning.  Diaste, you and I have both broke free of a lot of that.  I'm kinda thinking that you may need to break free of a little bit more.

Concerning your last sentences (from "Do you really believe the conditions..."), has it never gave you pause just how marvelous Jesus' words are?  I mean, Jesus Christ---rejected by so many, embraced by us---said this was what it was going to be (e.g., Matt. 24:4-14).  If Nostradamus---rejected by us, embraced by so many---had said this was what it was going to be, his followers would be swinging from the chandeliers.  So, we have many of the same conditions, but also, some that are Christianity-specific.  The fact that we still have even half of these conditions after 2000 years is a remarkable testimony to Jesus Christ, that He wasn't in the category of a Looney Tune character.  As I have often said, atheists, agnostics, and unbelievers need to take note.  Things could have been a lot different.  Jesus hit all His nails square on the head.  As nice as I know how to say it Diaste, while you seem to be looking for something more ,  I'm seeing everything that Jesus warned us of, and thinking 

P.S.  Remember that us in my last sentence.  It connects with what I said in a recent post concerning the pronouns Jesus used in His Olivet Discourse.  As I indicated then, I'll share my thoughts about that when I get to that place on my path.  Suffice it for now to say that I certainly marvel over the inspiration of the scriptures.  And, I might add, I believe God had His hand on the KJV in a special way.  That's what our forefathers thought as well.  Not sure what it is---just felt the need to say something positive about the English translation that has stood the test of far more time than any other...

Edited March 13, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Maybe I can get in an installment this afternoon...

For clarification, my question, "On the basis of what?" concerned your statement, "I would argue the 5th trump only occurs after the midpoint."  Concerning your post as a whole, I don't understand why you would dismiss or overlook the possibility that "as they were" (Rev. 6:11) is merely an explanation to these martyred that more were going to face the same thing they had faced, the thing of being "slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held" (Rev. 6:9).

I didn't overlook it. The language more than suggests it's the manner of death.

Rev 6

9 And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 

Here it's established for what reason the martyrs have died. It's common to all martyrs of the Lord they are killed for the Word and their testimony.

10 And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

Maybe this is always the cry of the martyrs from the 1st to the very last martyr. I don't know that. I only am sure this is recorded here.

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

This makes a point that can't be denied. "the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed" is really verse 9 restated. It's the fellow servants and brothers killed for the same reason as the souls under the altar; the souls under the altar and the fellow servants and brothers are all the same family and are all killed for the same reason; the testimony they hold and the Word of God.

"just as they had been killed." So why this modifier? We already know they are going to be killed and for what reason. Verse 11 could have been written as,

"Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed."

And we would know the reason and that they were going to have to wait for a certain number of them to die for Jesus.

But then "just as they had been killed." is tacked on to the end of verse 11. If it's the death by reason it's oddly redundant as that already is clear from verse 9 and this from verse 11; "fellow servants, their brothers, were killed". Same family, same reason.  And it's more than the fact of the death as 'were killed' is the fact of martyrdom by reason. 

It's 'just as' or 'like as' as in manner and not fact. 

Further we see this. " and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,"

A specific manner of death for a specific reason. It's not a stretch to consider this is related to Rev 6:9-11 since it's all in the short time format of the end of the age.

 

 

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

Just a little sidebar on what you put in bold above, "except those days should be shortened..." (Matt. 24:22).  Do you remember anyone in the forum family suggesting that this may connect with what results with the sounding of the 4th Trumpet (Rev. 8:12)?  Generally speaking, we know that the less light hours there are, the longer one can effectively hide.  Seems this could certainly lend to God's means of accomplishing what we find in Matthew 24:22.

Not especially. Jesus here is referring to GT.  It may be the 4th trump effects happen around that time but I don't know about that. 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Sometimes when I feel that I may have over-simplified, I find that I have not.  If you are really, really serious with your first two questions, it would seem that the context in which something is written does not have a standout effect on your understanding. 

It does have great affect. What is the context is the big question.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

I used the pattern of "John writes what happened" throughout my post, consistently with each of the seven seals, each of the seven trumpets, and each of the seven vials, to show the simplicity of the systematic structure in which The Revelation was given.  Said another way:

     1. The 1st Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

     2. The 2nd Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

     3. The 3rd Seal is opened, and everything that happens when it is opened is shown. <---(period)

I agree. It's not the fact, it's the when. Jesus said in Rev 1

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: 2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand."

An easy and quick examination of those two statements in the Koine Greek show the correct understanding; 'things which must shortly come to pass' is 'occur quickly in the sphere' and 'for the time is at hand' refers to the giving of the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His servants and not, 'the time is at hand for the prophecy to begin'.

So the time came for Jesus to reveal these things in a prophecy and that when the moment arrives for this to begin it will all happen very quickly.

This is correct as the Greek will show if you look into it.

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Now Diaste, I'm going to bet that you weren't being really, really serious, but were being a little bit facetious, so, I'm going to stop there.  Really, I'm needing to get me a shower and hit the sack after while, if you know what I mean.  You do make me wonder sometimes.  And sometimes, I can hear you when you are snickering, all the way out there in Wyoming : )

No way. I don't snicker at this, ever. If I am going to poke fun, you'll know.

 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your third and fourth sentences ("And isn't this interpretation..." and "Really...2000 years..."), where do you find it concerning The Revelation that "Daniel limits this to either 7 years or 3.5?"  We agree that Daniel's 70th Week is limited to 7 years, or two 3-1/2 year periods.  But, where does Daniel say that in The Revelation this begins with the opening of the 1st Seal?  He don't.  Rather, let me suggest that John records for us when Daniel's 70th Week will begin---At Revelation 11:1, right after the world's stage is fully prepared for it, right after we see the "little book" of Daniel "open" (Rev. 10 with Dan. 12:4, 8-10).

Jesus told us to look to Daniel for understanding about the A of D. So what Daniel records about that in Ch. 9, 11 and 12 is all important to the knowledge of this time. Daniel records a 7 year period where the A of D occurs at the midpoint. In Matt 24 then there is only 3.5 years left after the A of D. More than likely the previous words from the disciples questions to the mention of the A of D by Jesus is also 3.5 years.

In any case this all has to happen in the sight of a single generation as Jesus said. Since that generation was not the one listening to Jesus in person it has to be another one, but still one generation and not 30 generations across two millennia

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

Yeah, there are difficulties in The Revelation.  But, I would suggest that the biggest ones are the ones that have been imposed upon it by all the schools of higher learning.  Diaste, you and I have both broke free of a lot of that.  I'm kinda thinking that you may need to break free of a little bit more.

Concerning your last sentences (from "Do you really believe the conditions..."), has it never gave you pause just how marvelous Jesus' words are?  I mean, Jesus Christ---rejected by so many, embraced by us---said this was what it was going to be (e.g., Matt. 24:4-14).  If Nostradamus---rejected by us, embraced by so many---had said this was what it was going to be, his followers would be swinging from the chandeliers.  So, we have many of the same conditions, but also, some that are Christianity-specific.  The fact that we still have even half of these conditions after 2000 years is a remarkable testimony to Jesus Christ, that He wasn't in the category of a Looney Tune character.  

I'm saying the conditions do not exist and have not existed. I'm asking what is going to differentiate these conditions from conditions over 2-4000 years to know it's the fulfillment of prophecy? 

 

7 hours ago, not an echo said:

P.S.  Remember that us in my last sentence.  It connects with what I said in a recent post concerning the pronouns Jesus used in His Olivet Discourse.  As I indicated then, I'll share my thoughts about that when I get to that place on my path.  Suffice it for now to say that I certainly marvel over the inspiration of the scriptures.  And, I might add, I believe God had His hand on the KJV in a special way.  That's what our forefathers thought as well.  Not sure what it is---just felt the need to say something positive about the English translation that has stood the test of far more time than any other...

 

[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

After about 30 minutes, John "saw the seven angels which stood before God;  and to them were given seven trumpets" (Rev. 8:2)

     1. The 1st Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     2. The 2nd Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     5. The 5th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     6. The 6th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

     7. The 7th Trumpet is sounded, and John writes what happened.

With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, John records a summary overview given by the 24 elders concerning what this period will hold (Rev. 11:18).  Chapters 12 through 20 expound this overview.  In the timeframe of this period, John "saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues" (Rev. 15:1).  Later, he "heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth" (Rev. 16:1).

No. It's not 30 minutes. That has nothing to do with "2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." 

Hello Diaste,

Where do you get that?  I'm sorry, but it looks like to me that your statement is in serious conflict with Scripture.  Well, I've got to back up just a bit and say that I'm sorry for saying I'm sorry.

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

7And when he had opened the fourth seal,

9And when he had opened the fifth seal, 

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal,

7The first angel sounded, 

8And the second angel sounded, 

10And the third angel sounded, 

12And the fourth angel sounded,

I'm figuring that it was just an oversight, but, did you intentionally leave out, "1And when he had opened the seventh seal," (Rev. 8), after "12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal," above?

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

It could follow that the 7 angels that were given the 7 trumps immediately follow the 7th seal but the language isn't there to prove it. 

This demand the 7 trumps follow the 7th seal is inaccurate as the contrast in the language used by John in the obvious chronologies doesn't appear in Rev 8, "1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

Not 'after this', just that John 'saw'. 

Concerning your first sentence, is this one of them arguments from silence that you sometimes talk about?

Concerning your second paragraph and last sentence, are you not thinking that it was after this (the opening of the 7th Seal and the silence) that John saw the seven angels with the seven trumpets?  If not, what would you think that John saw after this silence?  I mean, where does his narrative pick back up with what happened after the silence following the opening of the 7th Seal?

Edited March 13, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

     1. The 1st Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     2. The 2nd Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     3. The 3rd Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     4. The 4th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     5. The 5th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     6. The 6th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

     7. The 7th Vial is poured out, and John writes what happened.

In Revelation 17, we see the judgment of the "great whore" (Rev. 17:1) expounded.  In Revelation 18, we see the judgment of "Babylon" (Rev. 18:2) expounded.  In Revelation 19, we see Christ's Second Coming expounded.  In Revelation 20, we see Christ's Reign and the Last Judgment expounded.  Revelation 20:15 marks the last verse of the 7th Trumpet period.  Whereas we have an account of when the first "woe" will be "past" (Rev. 11:12) and the second "woe" will be "past" (Rev. 11:14), there is no account to be found of when the third "woe" will be past.  For the unsaved, for whom all the woes are, this "woe" will never be past.  Not ever...

Finally, time will give way to eternity, where the saved will dwell forever with God and all the hosts of Heaven, world without end, Happily Ever After! (Me) (You)

Got to go.  Just remember, The Trump of God may sound before I push Submit Repl

My dude....imminence is a farce. 'No prophesied events can occur before' I believe is the classic pretrib requirement of imminence. You present 5 prophesied events called Seals. What's up with that?

What's up with that is that I, like you, no longer subscribe to the "classic pretrib" view.  My subscription to that view ran out long ago.  I still hold to the bottom line of that view (imminence), I just disagree with how all the others that hold to it arrive at it.

Concerning your second sentence, my position, according to what will harmonize with all of Scripture, is that Christ can return for the rapture at any time.  I'm not seeing anything concerning a sign that we are to be looking for, except for the event of the appearance of "THE SIGN of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), which is the imminent event.  This will occur with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Said another way, when I say that Christ's return for the rapture is imminent, or the opening of the 6th Seal is imminent, I am meaning the same thing.

A little note concerning signs:  I would like to point out that I do see the ongoing fulfillment of the portion of Jesus' discourse that parallels the first four seals, as a sign that has spanned some 2000 years---a sign that Jesus Christ sure knew what He was talking about.

You say "imminence is a farce."  I'm thinking, if Jesus comes now, He will certainly come "in such an hour as ye think not" (Matt. 24:44).  I'm suddenly reminded of John's words in I John 2:

 28  And now, little children, abide in Him;  that, when He shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Be careful Diaste.

About forgot.  With the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30), there is going to be "a great sound of a trumpet," at which time "He shall send His angels...and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds" (Matt. 24:31).  This trumpet, of which Jesus is here referring, is what Paul referred to as "The Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16).  The gathering together by the angels, of which Jesus speaks, connects with what Paul referred to as being "caught up" (I Thess. 4:17).  You better know, Christ's angels can get it done!

[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 10:07 AM, luigi said:

On 3/23/2021 at 8:10 PM, not an echo said:

I was going to write the following in response to a post on another thread, but I didn't want to be a party to possibly derailing a thread that wasn't mine.  Moreover, I certainly believe that this subject deserves a thread all it's own. 

So, is the Trump of God (I Thess. 4:16) the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 8:2 with 11:15)?  I think everyone is in agreement that the Trump of God is also "the Last Trump" spoken of in I Corinthians 15:52.  But, is this Last Trump/Trump of God the 7th Trumpet?  It is quite understandable how that it could be said that the 7th Trumpet is at least a last trumpet, for it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  It is also quite understandable how that one might put forth that the 7th Trumpet is the last trumpet, for again, it is certainly the last in a series of seven trumpets.  But, is this the Trump of God, or THE LAST Trump?

Is this thread about splitting hairs?  If I didn't know much about the Bible, I would think so!  But, there are solid scriptural reasons to consider this question.  For example, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He speaks of a trumpet that is commonly accepted as being the Trump of God, or the Last Trump.  In Matthew 24, He says:

 31  And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of in verse 31 happens during an event that He describes in verses 29-31, an event that certainly appears to find its fulfillment in connection with the opening of the 6th Seal, in Revelation 6:12-7:17.  Further, this "great sound of a trumpet" is commonly accepted to be the Trump of God, or THE Last Trump.  All of this then poses a relevant question:  If the event Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:29-31 finds its fulfillment in connection with the the opening of the 6th Seal, how can the 7th Trumpet spoken of much later in Revelation 11:15 be the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus speaks of, or the Trump of God?  My answer:  It isn't---and the reasoning is quite logical.  Let me explain, and I hope you will suffer me to reminisce a little...

When I was in high school (back in the 70's), I loved to go with my friend and his family to the dirt track races.  Every weekend we would go, and of course, we had our favorite race car drivers.  Our biggest favorite was Jessie Ladd, #77.  He won a lot , but not always .  Man, them races were so close, we often didn't know who was going to be the winner, most times, not even up to the last lap.  Often, even in turn four, it would be neck and neck and we wouldn't know the winner till they actually crossed the finish line.  Those were the days, over 45 years ago!

I've got to tell you that when Jessie won the race, that was a big, big night for us!   And on Monday (if school was still in), we would tell our buddies that Jessie won the main Saturday night.  We could even talk smack about how he was the one who got to drive the last lap.  Someone who had never been to the races might remark, "Well, duh, don't everyone get to drive the last lap?"  Of course, the answer would be that the last lap we were talking about was the Victory Lap.  What's that?  That's where the winning driver pulls up in front of the flagger's stand and gets presented with the checkered flag.  The winner would then drive slowly around the track, waving that flag, his fans cheering him on (I just got a tear in my eye, reminiscing---seriously).

I've shared all the foregoing to say this:  At the races, there was always the last lap of the race, which was one in a series, AND, there was always the Victory Lap.  Always.  You know, it goes without saying that there was a lot of difference in the last lap of the race and the Victory Lap.  On the nights that Jessie won, the Victory Lap was Jessie's Lap.  That was THE LAST LAP.  It was in a category all by itself.

I submit that the Trump of God---THE LAST TRUMP---is in a category all by itself.  That Last Trump is not the last in a series, as the 7th Trumpet is.  You know, I may be wrong about it.  But, with this understanding, a lot of prophetic puzzle pieces sure come together nicely for me---like by design.

This thread is part of A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Here's a link to that master thread, which also shows the other threads I have started relating to the subject of my different interpretation, or view (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  I wish I had the time to start---and keep up with---all the threads that I have had on my mind that relate to my view.  For now, it is little by little, the best I can, until the Lord sees fit differently.  With Christian charity (I Cor. 13:4-7), not an echo

I also think the seventh trumpet sounding, occurs over a period of time, as indicated in Revelation 10:7. I would therefore also think the first six angels sounding warnings occur over a period of time.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Hello luigi,

Concerning your first sentence, I believe that you are agreeing with me, but I just say it a little differently.  Rather than "occurs over a period of time,"  I interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period of time.  To me, it's a little, but important difference.  Hope you see what I mean. 

Concerning your second sentence, we do find evidences of time frames connected with the sounding of the 5th (Rev. 9:5, 10) and 6th (Rev. 9:15;  11:2-3, 9, 11) trumpets.  While such evidences are lacking for the first four, this doesn't mean there is not going to be.   There's just nothing written concerning this with the first four.  Personally, and for various reasons, I believe the first four trumpets may be sounded the same day.  I hope you will consider my thread, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

Edited March 13, 2023 by not an echo
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[luigi]

12 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello luigi,

Concerning your first sentence, I believe that you are agreeing with me, but I just say it a little differently.  Rather than "occurs over a period of time,"  I interpret the sounding of the 7th Trumpet as heralding a period of time.  To me, it's a little, but important difference.  Hope you see what I mean. 

Concerning your second sentence, we do find evidences of time frames connected with the sounding of the 5th (Rev. 9:5, 10) and 6th (Rev. 9:15;  11:2-3, 9, 11) trumpets.  While such evidences are lacking for the first four, this doesn't mean there is not going to be.   There's just nothing written concerning this with the first four.  Personally, and for various reasons, I believe the first four trumpets may be sounded the same day.  I hope you will consider my thread, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).

Hello Echo,

If you notice, during the first four sounding warnings by the Lords first four angels, 1/3 of all of earth's environmental resources are destroyed as a result of man not accepting the truth by the Lord's illuminators provide. In Revelation 9:20 we see that the plagues the first six angels soundings in chapters 8 & 9 provide are attributed to the love mankind has for the things his hands produce. Today over 95% of the things mans hands produce are produced in factories that require the burning of fossil fuels. Put one and one together, and we see that a lot of what is occurring today in the environment correlates with what the first four angels of God are providing mankind warning against. 

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

[not an echo]

On 5/2/2021 at 9:01 PM, Da Puppers said:

On 5/1/2021 at 11:43 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Da Puppers,

I have considered the evidence that you have put forth, but for me, it falls short of making the case you are trying to make.  I know that you have probably got similar thoughts concerning the evidence I have put forth.   Hey, but I'm not throwing your evidence out.  I would just need to see something more...

A point of note is the point you open with concerning the parable of the fig tree.  It seems that you are not including the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and the accompanying signs (Matt. 24:29-31) as being a part of the "all these things" of the fig tree parable (Matt. 24:32-34).  I'm also kinda curious as to whether you see a difference in what Jesus says concerning the event of His Sign Appearance (Matt. 24:29-51/Rev. 6:12-7:17) and the event of His Second Coming (Matt. 24:27-28/Rev. 19:11-21).

I think it would be helpful for me to see a more complete overview of your understanding, as it connects with the timing of the rapture.  Have you got a thread you can point me to where you give something like a bird's-eye view of your interpretations?  I would invite you to look at my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).  This is like a master thread of my interpretations that, not only gives a bird's-eye view, but also some bug's-eye views (if you will), of various aspects of my understanding that I have been able to put forth on the forum so far.

I probably can't address all the issues that need to be addressed in this post, or probably even in multiple posts.  But let me try to get started.   

So let me now discuss "the sign of the Son of man".  For the most part, I agree that the timing of this sign is at the opening of 6th seal, which is also the time when Satan and the stars of heaven are cast down.   Notice what it says in Rev 12: 

Hello Da Puppers,

It is shaping up to be a very full weekend for me, but maybe I can get in an installment here and there.  I think it is probably easy for the both of us to perceive that the wheels of our minds turn somewhat differently, even in relation to Scripture that is the same.  An example is in your second paragraph.  I have never entertained the possibility that the opening of the 6th Seal is as you say, "the time when Satan and the stars of heaven are cast down."  I have tried since to entertain that possibility, but am yet unable.  I guess an obstacle to this for me (among other things) is the very apparent chronological order of The Revelation.

On 5/2/2021 at 9:01 PM, Da Puppers said:

The word for wonder is g4592, semeion, which is translated as miracle, sign,  and  in this case(s) as wonder, aka "signs" from heaven.  As, I have already made the point,  the signs and wonders in heaven, as foretold by Joel, shall appear BEFORE the DOTL.   This includes blood, fire and vapors of smoke, locusts and horsemen, and sun and moon going dark.  It also includes the outpouring of the spirit that Peter preached about,  when Peter said,  "this is that..."

Though I would have worded things a little differently, I can agree with all but one of these things happening before the DOTL, that one thing being the "locusts" that you include.  I'm in absolute, total, unwavering agreement that the things included in the prophecy of Joel's that Peter quoted on the Day of Pentecost will take place before the DOTL  But, the only locusts mentioned in The Revelation come forth after the sounding of the 5th Trumpet, which will not be sounded until after the DOTL has begun, IMHO anyway.  As far as the "horsemen" you mention, I'm taking these to be the four horsemen, which I believe have been riding for some 2000 years now---certainly before the DOTL.

On 5/2/2021 at 9:01 PM, Da Puppers said:

All of those things,  Peter said, in quoting Joel, will come BEFORE the DOTL.

Agreed.

On 5/2/2021 at 9:01 PM, Da Puppers said:

The point that you don't seem to be accepting is the day of Christ versus the day of the Lord.   So,  I won't go over it again.

For me, a help in better understanding the distinctions that can be made between the Day of the Lord and the Day of Christ is the similar distinctions that can be made between "the day of the automobile" and "the day of the Ford Mustang."  Whereas the day of the automobile has continued for over a century since it was invented, the day of the Mustang came during the day of the automobile.  Also, the day of the Mustang can be understood as being the very day it was unveiled or as taking in all the years it has been manufactured.

Borrowing from this illustration, I see the Day of Christ primarily as the day of Christ's Second Advent, which will take place during the Day of the Lord.  Moreover, in accord with my understanding that it will be a "sign" appearance that Christ will make some seven years before His Second Advent, I can see the word "day" sometimes pointing to both of these events as a whole, especially from a first century perspective. 

On 5/2/2021 at 9:01 PM, Da Puppers said:

The point that you don't seem to be accepting is the day of Christ versus the day of the Lord.   So,  I won't go over it again.   One of the points that Diaste made is how Matt 24 has [not] paralleled the last 2000 years.   It has not and does not.   Let me briefly reiterate my previous comments about how the word "know" is used in the O.D.   Jesus said, (paraphrasing) "... when this generation experiences (sees) all these things,  then shall ye know (ginosko)  that my coming is near, ...as you think not,  the Son of man cometh,  erchomai.  This is in contrast to "... as in the days of Noah,  so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be".  We have different words used to convey different points.  The parousia refers to the time FROM the Rapture until the coming (erchomai) that Jesus was alluding to (and/or just the Rapture itself), being distinguished from the erchomai.  Put another way, Jesus said that you would know/ understand/ ginosko when the erchomai is near, when this generation experiences all these things.   Getting back to my primary point.  The sign,  (G4592) of the Son of man "in heaven" is the sign of woman in heaven. 

Again, I believe we probably understand that the thing of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and the last 2000 years is one of those areas where the wheels of our minds turn differently concerning.  I will be saying something further about this, hopefully this weekend, when I share with Diaste some of my thoughts about Jesus' use of the 2nd person pronouns (ye, you, your) in His Olivet Discourse.  For now, I must say that I am not even in the proximity of being with you on your last sentence.  Are you sure that's what you meant to say?

On 5/2/2021 at 9:01 PM, Da Puppers said:

As I think I have also already stated,  from Mark 8, Jesus said that NO sign would be given to this generation.  BUT,  an evil generation will be given the sign of Jonas.   That sign will be fulfilled in the last days.   Few people have gotten this next part.  Jesus will be here (in Jerusalem)  for 3 days and 3 three nights prior to him taking the saints to the Father to receive their reward.

I guess I'm also in the number of the "Few people..."  But, I'm thinking on it.  Sometimes when I think on something, my head moves up and down.  Sometimes the other way.  Right now, my head is moving that other way.  I think I need to get some shut eye.

A question for everyone:  Several times lately, at random times, if I hit my "Back" button, I will lose the whole paragraph I have been working on.  It happened to me a couple of times today.  Are any of you experiencing this?  Really frustrating...especially when you are already pressed for time---and sleepy.

Edited March 13, 2023 by not an echo