Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[not an echo]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:41 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

Jesus' statement that you quote is from Matthew 24:34.  If "all these things" includes, as you say, "all the things from the disciples question to the statement, Truly I tell you...",  what is it that you believe will be "near, even at the doors" (vs. 33) after "all these things"?

If we look at the WHOLE quote it becomes strikingly, abundantly clear.

"32Now learn this lessone from the fig tree: As soon as its branches become tender and sprout leaves, you know that summer is near. 33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near,f right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away."

If I have to explain this past the words in bold I think I may have to just be done.

Diaste, the question that I asked was for the purpose of getting you to look closer and consider further.  In the KJV, the part you have in bold is translated "it is near, even at the doors" (Matt. 24:33).  Because of this, my question to you concerned what you believe the "it" here represented.  I agree that it represents Christ's Second Advent, as reflected in the translation that you used.

What I was wanting you to look at closer and consider further is this:  If Jesus is present in 24:30 (according to your position or understanding of things), then He is not "near"---He is here.  Said differently, if what Jesus speaks of in 24:30 also includes His Second Advent (which is your position), then what Jesus would be saying is that "when ye shall see all these things (which would include His Second Advent), know that it (His Second Advent) is near, even at the doors."  As I am seeing it, this understanding of things would be like trying to fit two prophetic puzzle pieces together that are already together.

To doubly insure that you understand me, this is how I would annotate verse 33 according to my position (with Jesus speaking first person):

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (which includes My Sign Appearance), know that it (My Second Advent) is near, even at the doors.

This is an understanding that will fit what all Jesus is saying and what we find elsewhere in Scripture.

On 9/3/2022 at 6:41 AM, Diaste said:

Since there is a time after the 7th trump has sounded for the outpouring of wrath, of which there at least a 5 month period of time it's possible to think the 7th trump would sound in the 6th year of the end. So yeah. We are only blind to the day and hour, as it is written.

It seems to me that you are saying that there will be "at least a 5 month period of time" that will follow "the 7th trump" and that this will be "for the outpouring of wrath".  Is this what you are saying?  If so, would you be meaning by this that you have Christ's Second Advent coming "at least a 5 month period of time" after the rapture?

[not an echo]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:22 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

I'm supposing that you say this because I use the phrase, "THE CHURCH ERA" in my illustration.  I have spoke to this several times.  When I say this, I'm meaning the time of Christianity since Christ, until now.  Or, the post-Cross era of the Church.  Or, the New Testament era of the Church.  Some call it the Church Age, and I'm alright with that (as I often have myself), but I know that that phrase is particularly frowned upon by you.  What would you call the era since the time of Christ until now?  That's all I mean by the phrase.

The problem with this sort of thing is it's predicated on the idea Christ wasn't around before being born of a virgin. Like there was no church of Jesus Christ followers before the 1st century.

Jesus made all things. So He's preexistent.[immense power too]

Jesus is God in physical form. Who walked and talked with Adam and Eve? Who met with Abraham in the plain of Mamre?

"Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

This would mean anyone saved from any time is saved by Jesus Christ, including the OT saints. Logically then any saved in the OT must have confessed Jesus and followed Him.

"I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud, and that they all passed through the sea. 2They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3They all ate the same spiritual food 4and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that ROCK was CHRIST."

This is the church of Christ. Formed in the day of Abraham, purified in the Exodus, Always Jesus Christ from the beginning to the end. Hidden in those days, revealed to us now, but ever the same. 

There is no church age; there is one God, one Jesus Christ and one congregation in the Spirit; which congregation began with Abraham. Anything else is prideful deification of a organization, imo.

A modern church age is a fantasy. Even if you don't ascribe the same definition you're still acknowledging the concept. 

Overall, your response seems to again be directed against dispensationalism.  Really, it was for the sake of our discussion(s) that I asked you the question, "What would you call the era since the time of Christ until now?"  So, again, what would you call this era, as it pertains to the Church, or Christians?  I mean, we are a part of the Church.  And, we are Christians.  And, the post-Cross era is easily differentiated from the pre-Cross era.  I'm at ease talking about it using several different terms.  I've just not yet found terms that are palatable to you.  But then, I can't say if I've ever actually just come out and asked you concerning this.  Maybe that's what I should have done a long time ago.

[not an echo]

On 9/3/2022 at 7:24 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

I could say something very similar to what you say, but I'm not sure where that would really get us.  See what you think...

No one likes the truth. As a rule people like the smooth, generous lie. It's why we have Joel Osteens, Paula Whites, Joyce Meyers, Copelands, et al.,  and the same reason the same political vipers get elected cycle after cycle. 

It's why the Jews hated and sought the death of Jesus and the Disciples. 

Post trib is falsehood and a veil obscuring the truth.

Except they are all pretrib. 

It doesn't matter to me what they are.  My point was that statements like this don't get us anywhere.  Saying things like this is not showing anything.  What gets us somewhere is the endeavor of showing the Word, rightly divided.

[not an echo]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:13 AM, Uriah said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

Post trib is falsehood and a veil obscuring the truth.

What? Wow, if anything is a smooth lie, THIS is it!

Hello Uriah,

What you quoted of me was from a statement Diaste had originally made to me.  I merely changed the first word from "Pre" to "Post" and questioned whether that statements like this really get us anywhere.

So, Diaste had said to me, "Pretrib is a falsehood and veil obscuring the truth."  What if I, in response to this, had replied like you:

"What?  Wow, if anything is a smooth lie, THIS is it!"

Again, I don't know where statements like these really get us.  I would much rather see the Word of God---rightly divided.

[Uriah]

8 hours ago, not an echo said:

I don't know where statements like these really get us.

My hope is that it gets us to look at the scriptures and and find the truth by "rightly dividing the word of truth" as well. 

The scriptures show sharp contrasts in many things. I would take your concerns to be an invitation to rationally discuss the matter, laying out the scriptures to explore it thoroughly.

[not an echo]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:54 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/6/2022 at 11:13 AM, not an echo said:

In the opening verses of The Revelation, John was shown things concerning the future that were "at hand" to begin to take place. 

This is a false premise. As I have shown before it's the giving of the prophecy that is at hand, not the start of the manifestation. It's also 'when in the realm of fulfillment' not an immediate 'soon' but how it will all occur once it begins to occur, which will be quickly, not over 2000 years.

"Shortly come to pass" is 'en ginomai'

"en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within)."

 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).

M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).

And there has been no change in condition to this point in history.

"The time is at hand" refers to the giving of the Revelation, not the manifestation of prophetic events. First, after the giving of the Revelation time must elapse as at this point no one but John has even heard of the Revelation and much less so read it.

Then I don't see it a reasonable the events are in existence even before the prophecy is given, neither can I see anything but a contradiction in 'shortly come to pass' and 'the time is at hand' in relation to the whole of the Revelation. Which is it? Later or now? 

Jesus is saying, "Conditions will be thus when it begins and now is the time to tell you of the future." Not, "This begins now before the Revelation is given and before anyone has read it." 

Hello Diaste,

While there is more involved in the translation of a sentence or a paragraph than the definition of any of its component parts, the words of the definitions (e.g., "to emerge" or "become,"  etc.) take nothing away from my position.  With a prophecy like The Revelation, just like with most any prophecy, there is going to be the time when it will begin to be fulfilled.  And, at the time The Revelation was given, that time was "at hand" (Rev. 1:3).

According to your position, if the time is at hand "refers to the giving of the Revelation,"  then it would be correct for us to assume that it would have been timely for the Christians at that time.  Moreover, if the time was at hand for "the giving of the Revelation" as you say, what then, when the prophecy was given?  What do I mean?  In the last chapter of The Revelation, after it has been given, the same is said:  "And he saith to me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:  for the time is at hand" (Rev. 22:10).  The Revelation is sandwiched in words that bespeak its timeliness.

This is also reinforced by what John is instructed here, from Revelation 1...

19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Out of curiosity, I just Googled "hereafter,"  and the first meaning that popped up was "from now on"!

On the basis of the way the book of The Revelation opens, the early Christians who were a part of the seven churches in Asia would have had good reason to be on alert for some things to begin to happen---for at least some of its prophecies to begin to be fulfilled.  And, of things that would go into the category of "hereafter,"  where would they find concerning this?  Consider afresh from Revelation 4...

1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in Heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

At this verse, they had their cue.  Beginning with the next verse, John beholds God on His throne and the worship He is receiving from twenty-four elders and four beasts that are before Him.  But, there is nothing here about what shall be hereafter.  Rather, this is part of the prelude to the revealing of what was to be hereafter.  This continues to the close of chapter four.

Chapter five then opens with John's account of a mysterious book God is holding in His right hand, "sealed with seven seals" (vs. 1).  This is followed by a question posed by an angel concerning who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof.  No one is found worthy to do this, but "the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David" (vs. 5), who is none other than "the Lamb of God,"  or Jesus Christ!  The scene is then of the worship He receives of all who are in Heaven, but again, there is nothing here about what shall be hereafter.  This also is part of the prelude to the revealing of what was to be hereafter and continues to the close of chapter five.

It is not until chapter six, when the Lamb actually begins to open the seals of that Seven Sealed Book, that John writes of anything that will go into the category of what was to be hereafter and at hand to begin to come to pass.  Here, the Lamb opens the 1st Seal and John sees a white horse go forth, upon which is a rider with a bow.  John records of this rider that "he went forth conquering, and to conquer" (vs. 2).  After this, another seal is opened and another horse with a rider goes forth, and the same continues until there are four horsemen that have gone forth on differing campaigns.  And then, of course, there's more.

If the members of the seven churches in Asia were going to be on the lookout for some things to begin to happen, the only appropriate place to look concerning those things would have been towards the seals of that Seven Sealed Book and what those seals represented.  This, in turn, would mean that at least one or more of the seals was about to be opened.

Now, concerning what you say in your last three paragraphs, I do hear you, but I hear more loudly what history has shown and what it continues to show.  And, we don't know the exact experience of all the Christians of the last part of the first century.  But, some things do stick out.  First of all, this was the century that Judaism would be superseded, and that by Christianity.  Controversies surrounding this had been a great hindrance to the advance of the Gospel and a major trial for the apostles---especially prior to 70 A.D.

At the time of John's receiving of The Revelation, he was the last of the twelve, and the last living man to be inspired to write a book of The Bible---that book being The Revelation.  For me, it is interesting that John was instructed to send The Revelation to churches that were in Asia, instead of the churches that were in Israel.  It goes without saying that the epicenter of Satan's activity in the days of Christ and the apostles would have been Israel.  But, with what happened in 70 A.D. and with the last living apostle near the time of his death, I can see that epicenter changing and becoming Asia.  Was this the area from which the four horsemen of the first four seals went forth?

Ever since creation, Satan has been granted certain liberties (he would have none otherwise!), and relating to the post-apostolic era, my position is that these liberties are personified by the horsemen of the first four seals.  Like Satan did with Job, I can almost see him negotiating with God over what liberties he could have for the era of the Church from John's passing till the rapture.  I can see Satan now, "Let me have something 'white' and they'll not see the false---they'll not see the deception."  And, "Don't just out and call what I'm about war.  Something besides what Jesus said in His Olivet Discourse.  Something like, what about the taking of 'peace' away?  Yeah, that would be better.  But, do we have to call the sword 'great'?  Well, Okay."  And, "When it comes to the depth of the poverty conditions that I get to cause, can't there be something added to make the nature of this liberty kinda ambiguous?  I mean, maybe throw in something positive, like 'hurt not the oil and the wine'?  That ought to do it!"  And, "I really need the power to take more Christian's lives.  I mean, they are gonna die at sometime anyway, and You get to take them on to Heaven right then!  I'm just gonna bet You, that if I can take their life right in the middle of them standing up for You, or, if I can just 'pull the plug on them' for seemingly no reason at all, they ain't gonna have the faith for such as that.  Not if---let me see---not if you'll give me this liberty over like, like, say the fourth part of the earth---geographically?"

I hope you will consider the opening posts of my threads on the first four seals once again, in light of what I've here said...

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/)

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/)

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/)

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse

(https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/)

Edited May 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:47 AM, Uriah said:

On 9/22/2022 at 7:45 PM, not an echo said:

I don't know where statements like these really get us.

My hope is that it gets us to look at the scriptures and and find the truth by "rightly dividing the word of truth" as well. 

The scriptures show sharp contrasts in many things. I would take your concerns to be an invitation to rationally discuss the matter, laying out the scriptures to explore it thoroughly.

Yes Uriah.  My mind goes to the Bereans of Acts 17...

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[Uriah]

6 hours ago, not an echo said:

Yes Uriah.  My mind goes to the Bereans of Acts 17...

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Absolutely. And in this case as well, they found that the scriptures will reveal that something is true or false. This applies to pre, post, mid etc.