Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:13 AM, not an echo said:

In the opening verses of The Revelation, John was shown things concerning the future that were "at hand" to begin to take place. 

This is a false premise. As I have shown before it's the giving of the prophecy that is at hand, not the start of the manifestation. It's also 'when in the realm of fulfillment' not an immediate 'soon' but how it will all occur once it begins to occur, which will be quickly, not over 2000 years.

"Shortly come to pass" is 'en ginomai'

"en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within)."

 gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and signifies a change of condition, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).

M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).

And there has been no change in condition to this point in history.

"The time is at hand" refers to the giving of the Revelation, not the manifestation of prophetic events. First, after the giving of the Revelation time must elapse as at this point no one but John has even heard of the Revelation and much less so read it.

Then I don't see it a reasonable the events are in existence even before the prophecy is given, neither can I see anything but a contradiction in 'shortly come to pass' and 'the time is at hand' in relation to the whole of the Revelation. Which is it? Later or now? 

Jesus is saying, "Conditions will be thus when it begins and now is the time to tell you of the future." Not, "This begins now before the Revelation is given and before anyone has read it." 

 

 

[not an echo]

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

First of all, I don't believe you have yet begun to really differentiate between the event of the sign appearance that Christ will make, which is shown with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-7:17 (cp. Matt. 24:29-31) and the event of His Second Advent, which is shown much later, in Revelation 19:11-21 (cp. Matt. 24:26-28). 

Also, I see no evidence that you have a concept that there will be over seven years of time between these two events.

I very much do and I have said as much. What I have said is the 2nd advent comes on the heels of the Sign and directly so; as in Matt 24. I know you need a time separation of great length but I don't see where scripture supports such a scenario.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven," Simple enough, the Sign appears in heaven.

"and all the tribes of the earth will mourn." Again, this is pretty simple, the tribes of earth mourn based on seeing the sign. They know what's coming.

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." And this is what's coming, the 2nd Advent. 

I don't see any great length of time between the the Sign and the 2nd advent. While the tribes mourn they see Jesus coming. Are the tribes mourning for 7 years? So the tribes of earth must mourn over the sign, which they all see, while trumpets sound, the beast runs amok, martyrs are slain and a demon horde astride chimeras destroy men and earth? 

Hello Diaste,

To clarify somewhat, my position is that what you are calling the Second Advent is not.  This is just further concerning Christ's Sign Appearance.  I speak to this in my first post on page two of my thread, The Event of Christ's Sign Appearance (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/278343-the-event-of-christs-sign-appearance/).

What you say concerning me needing "a time separation of great length" is not something that has ever been any kind of concern of mine, neither has such ever factored into any conclusion I have come to.  The seven plus years that separate between the Sign Appearance that Christ will make and His Second Advent is shown in The Revelation.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

Also, I see no evidence that you have a concept that there will be over seven years of time between these two events.  Whether you agree, my position is based on this realization.  Moreover, based upon the convergence of the related prophetic puzzle pieces, the gathering of the Church will occur in conjunction with the event of the sign appearance Christ will make.  Now, with these things in mind, read again what all you have quoted of me above and you should better understand what I am saying.

Your conclusion is based on a personal realization required by presupposing a pretrib rapture and a church age dispensation. Both are false and unprovable premises. You keep pretending I don't understand. Why?

In the course of my coming to the conclusions I now hold, my journey had nothing to do with presupposing anything.  It never mattered to me what my conclusions might end up being---only that I came away believing the truth of the matter.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

 But, by what you say after this, and elsewhere, you have the gathering also happening at Jesus' Second Advent. 

I do not! Scripture says so. Jesus says so. Paul says so. You aren't disputing that fact with me, you're disputing with them and the scriptures.

What you say concerning "Scripture says so. Jesus says so. Paul says so." is part of what things look like on the surface, and I understand somewhat, as anyone can see the surface.  But, this is not giving due consideration to what is below the surface.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

 

So, I know that overall, we are not in agreement.  I would state it like this:  The man of sin will be revealed before Jesus' Second Advent, but not before the gathering, which happens in conjunction with the event of His Sign Appearance. 

Even though Paul clearly says both the coming of Jesus and the gathering are forever linked events occurring in the same time/space moment?

Christ's coming for the event of His Sign Appearance and for the gathering of the Church (II Thess. 2:1) are indeed "forever linked events occurring in the same time/space moment",  but this is not what you are saying.  This is part of the reason I added my latest post (post 1, page 2) to my above mentioned thread, The Event of Christ's Sign Appearance.  Whether you can come to agree, I hope you can come to understand my position.  It is upon the basis of what Paul says in II Thessalonians 2:1 that he is able to tell the Thessalonians in the rest of his sentence to "be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (Christ's Second Advent) is at hand" (2:2).  He continues thus...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Christ's Second Advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is exactly how things are shown to occur in The Revelation, as I have shown many times.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

Beyond this, I would like to comment on just a couple of other things...

I believe you are talking about II Thessalonians 2:6, instead of "v7", are you not?  I have never seen any translation that would support what you are here putting forth.  I must say, I really struggle with the NDV (New Diaste Version).  Sorry.

Verse 7. " only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way."

This is, "monon arti katecho heos ginomai ek mesos" in the Greek.

Applied literally, "merely for now hold fast till coming into being in the middle."

This has nothing to do with the church or any other entity holding back evil. Paul is saying to wait till the beast arises in the middle of the week.

Mock all you like. That just builds my faith.

The first time you mentioned this, you had it literally thus (August 9):  "Only now hold fast till he emerges on the world stage in the middle."  Now you have it literally something else.  And, just part of the verse.  And, not the immediate context.  Again, you have no support for your position with any translation that I'm aware of.  Moreover, you can't just transpose some definitions of the original Greek words and "presto",  as you have said, have the true meaning.

Of your last line, really, I not only struggled a little with what I was thinking, I struggled bringing myself to say it.  At the time, I was struggling with a few things you were saying, especially the way you seemed to mock Christ's Church.  It kinda surprised me that you would make the statement you make, in light of things you are so given to saying.  I'm reminded of the movie, First Blood.  Perhaps we both should endeavor to do a little better.  I will try.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning Christ's Church, you make these statements:  "Still today it's said some divine entity is restraining evil on earth. [imagine thinking the church restrains evil! LOL]"  Then you say, "Well they aren't exactly doing a bang up job on that front, are they? And that's just from the evidence of evil that's in our face every day."  It remains a curious and troubling thing for me the way you disparage the Church.  I believe it would be in order for me to remind you that one day you will face Christ, and He "loved the Church, and gave Himself for it" (Eph. 5:25).  Moreover, He "is the Head of the Church" (Eph. 5:23).  Have you ever heard the saying, "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"?  Diaste, have you ever considered that, by your profession, you are a part of the Church you so disparage?

Big difference between the true church and the church organization. I'm lighting a candle. The truth is the light in the darkness. I love the church brothers. Not all who call themselves of Christ are of Christ, however. 

I get it. The truth is a bitter pill. A lie is sweet and comforting, like pretrib. But the lie shifts the focus to self and away from faith Jesus will see us through. The lie destroys trust and respect but it is smooth and easy to swallow. Might choke later though.

For me, it would be a plus if you would clarify further what you mean, any time it seems that you are disparaging Christ's Church.  I mean, instead of waiting until I question you on it.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

When I contemplate what you say and the restraining of evil that is effected in this world by Christ's Spirit working through His Church, I think of all the controversy revolving around people of law enforcement these days.  Of course, there are very good policemen, very bad policemen, and everything in between (similarly with the Church/and there are tares).  We are living in a day that many disparage all policemen rather than respect any of them.  I can understand to an extent, especially with all the bad and lopsided press.  And, I've encountered a couple of bad cops myself.  But, what if law enforcement were "taken out of the way"?  Or, what if was reduced to a thousandth of what it is?  Can you imagine the plunge (apostasy)?

I think of the two dams that are just down the road from me and about a mile apart---Barkley Dam and Kentucky Dam.  They control (or hinder) the Cumberland and Tennessee rivers and regulate flooding.  Not only this, but they are responsible for the formation and control of Barkley and Kentucky lakes (a "great commission"!).  In between these two lakes, there is the LBL (Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area).  Annnyway, when there's lots and lots of rain, these dams have their work cut out for them.  I've seen the level of Kentucky Lake high enough that it would splash over the closed gates.  I've seen the rivers, both of them, high enough that they looked like lakes.  It's a big thing around here---real big.  I've seen times when some of the locals, especially those adversely affected, would disparage the management of the dams.  Those below the dams will sometimes say, "If they don't close them (expletive) gates, my place is gonna flood!"  Those above the dams will sometimes say, "If they don't open them (expletive) gates, my place is gonna flood!"  Usually, things are in pretty good control.  Sometimes, they can only do what they can do.  There has been a time when there was serious concern over whether the dams would even hold.  What would it be if they were suddenly "taken out of the way"?  Well, one thing---The good they had done would soon be appreciated a little more.

The argument and the analogy fail in light the true meaning of verse 7.

I am quite confident of my understanding of II Thessalonians 2:1-12 and the analogy I used.  I guess we will just continue to be in disagreement on this.  But, I do hope you will continue to look at what I am saying.  A lot sure does come together in a very interesting way when understood as I am understanding things.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

When the NT Church and the work of Christ's Spirit through it is "taken out of the way",  the good that His Spirit has effected through His Church will be able to be a little better appreciated.  Also, it should be realized that when the Church is gathered, this will not mean that the work of Christ's Spirit has completely ceased upon the earth.  There will be the 144,000 that will be indwelt by His Spirit, and the two witnesses, and those who turn to Christ during the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  In other words, there will still be some "salt" and "light" in the world---perhaps only a thousandth of what it had been, or less.  Hardly enough to go around, if you get my drift.  If "evil flourishes when good men do nothing",  what will it be when they are taken?  It's gonna happen one day. 

It's not going to go down like this. You'll see. 

Yours is an easy statement to make, but I'm not sure where it gets us.  I mean, where would it get us if I said, "It's not going to go down like this. You'll see"?  On my part, I would rather see Scripture, rightly divided and expounded.

On 8/18/2022 at 5:03 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/17/2022 at 1:31 PM, not an echo said:

And, that day could be today---perhaps this hour.  Your position says not.  Jesus said, "Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).

The reliance on this for a pretrib proof is preposterous in my opinion. It's an hour. It could be at any time with no restriction on the date. Pretrib forces a scenario from this that can't be supported by scripture[scripture contradicts the pretrib idea]. 

That hour spoken of could be in the middle of the GT and it would still be an hour 'ye think not'. 

It's odd to me this 'hour' was picked to be one that happens before anything else, a sort of date setting, when literally any hour of future history could be chosen. Why this one? It's only to satisfy the pretrib doctrine.

Best get ready. The beast is coming and you will see him. I mean, if we are still alive when it all begins, that is.

The gist of what Jesus is saying is that He will come for the gathering of the Church suddenly and unexpectedly---on a day just like today.  On a day when everyone is going about their normal day to day.  As Jesus said in Matthew 24...

36 But OF that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only.

37 But AS the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 AND KNEW NOT UNTIL THE FLOOD CAME, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We have got to consider closely the point that Jesus is making and not let a hyper-focus upon His mention of an hour or a day cause us to miss what He is saying.  If His coming for the Church and the beginning of the Day of the Lord happens after all you believe is going to be taking place, this would essentially, if not altogether, be like advertising the day and the hour.

[not an echo]

On 8/30/2022 at 1:03 PM, WilliamL said:

On 8/25/2022 at 6:21 PM, not an echo said:

As I am not yet very familiar with your overall position, how do you reconcile what you believe with what Jesus says, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only" (Matt. 24:36)?

First of all, my positions are made abundantly clear in my blogs, and well-summarized in my siggy below. Index and summaries of blog articles here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles/

Hello William,

I clicked on your link here a few times, but this is all I get...

"We could not locate the item you are trying to view."

Your other links seemed to work fine...

[not an echo]

On 8/30/2022 at 3:32 PM, JoeCanada said:

On 8/30/2022 at 1:03 PM, WilliamL said:

On 8/25/2022 at 6:21 PM, not an echo said:

With what is revealed to us in Scripture concerning this event, it is not hard to gather that Christ's appearance at this time will occur quickly and that what the people see of Him will be on the order of a glimpse.

Agree. Most likely a glimpse via "the eye single" (Lk. 11:34), the spiritual eye in man. Because everyone living and dead will see Him simultaneously.

Gentlemen, 

Why do you suppose that the appearance of Christ in the sky, when it is split apart at the 6th seal, will be just a glimpse?

A glimpse is a brief, incomplete view of something.

Yet, scripture teaches us:

"Every eye will see Him"....Rev 1:7

For this to happen, every eye would  simultaneously be focused on the sky

For the kings and great men and commanders  and slaves and free men in Rev 6:15 to say "Hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne"..... to 'see' that would be longer than a quick glimpse. And all of them together would have to again, be looking up, at the same time.

"Did you see that?..... What?.....Oh, you didn't see that?.... See what?

Know what I mean?

The second coming of our Lord, in all His shekinah glory.... will be the greatest event ever witnessed by the entire world.

After the sun is darkened and the moon not give its light..... (and this will be for a few days, 'cause no-one knows the day or the hour)..... then, the sky is split apart, and the brightness and shekinah glory of Jesus will be manifest for the whole world to see as He slowly descends from heaven, with lightening and thunder and fire from His throne, and myriads and myriads of angels, and a mighty trumpet blaring...... This my brothers, will even be seen by the dead, with a shout from Him who sits on the throne....

    .....ARISE.....

Hello Joe,

By what you have said, I don't know if you are really realizing my position on differentiating between the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31/Rev. 6:12-17) and Christ's Second Advent (Matt. 24:26-28/Rev. 19:11-21).  I go into detail about the former in my thread, The Event of Christ's Sign Appearance (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/278343-the-event-of-christs-sign-appearance/).

Concerning Christ's Second Advent, similar to you, my mind first of all goes to Revelation 1:7.  And, it is certainly not hard to see that what John writes of in Revelation 19:11-16 will be something much, much more than what I said concerning His Sign Appearance being "on the order of a glimpse"!

As I have shown in my first thread ever on this forum, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/), if the "third part" destruction that occurs with the sounding of the first four trumpets (Rev. 8) takes the remaining population of our hemisphere out of the picture, this would mean that at the time of Christ's Second Advent, the only remaining eyes on the face of the earth will be those on Israel's side of the earth---in that hemisphere.  This would mean that, just as the sun at high noon in Israel can be seen by every eye in their hemisphere, so will THE SON be seen by every eye at His Second Advent---and without the need for cells phones and such, as many have begun to think.

Interestingly, the geography of our Western Hemisphere represents one-third of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point.

It remains a curious thing to me that scholarship has not picked up on this.  There's not even much commentary to be found on Revelation chapter eight.  When you consider that with our hemisphere essentially out of the picture (as it was in the Bible days), this would bring the focus to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---once again---as it was for the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy.  This is not to mention the NT Church being taken out of the picture as well, which was also not a part in the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks.  If you have remembered me speaking of a "stage reset" for Daniel's 70th Week, what I have been speaking of relates to that.  There's lot's of things that come together in an interesting way when considered according to my position.  This is all part of what I refer to as A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited May 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/31/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/30/2022 at 10:11 AM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

In accord with everything else I have shown, we know that there has been tribulation and great tribulation all down through the ages.  It goes without saying that after the 6th Seal is opened, there is going to be even greater tribulation, and during Daniel's 70th Week, the tribulation will become so very great that it will be just as Jesus said, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to [that] time, no, nor ever shall be."

When the 6th Seal is opened, the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will begin.  It will be a day of great, great tribulation.  Some five months (or more later), when the world's stage is reset for the beginning of Daniel's 70 Week, things will still be bad, and things will get worse and worse until the nature of it will become as Jesus said.  Also, realize that the A of D will be the A of D before he shows himself for what he is.  That wolf in sheep's clothing will still be a wolf, no matter the time when the glimmer of his fangs is first seen.

Not saying there hasn't been.

What I'm saying is this GT is within the confines of the Olivet Discourse and hence, the end of the age, and even more narrowly in the last half of the week only after the A of D, as it is written:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation,

It's not that there will be great tribulation when people flee to the mountains. It's not that there will be great tribulation when mothers lament their pregnancies or nursing, or that it's winter or the Sabbath.

It's that there will be GT  when the A of D occurs, as it's the A of D that's the signal to flee quickly leaving all behind, ruing pregnancy, nursing and the season and day of the week, as GT is on the heels of this abomination. 

That's the order and it's not going to change. 

Hello Diaste,

It looks like we will just continue to be in disagreement on this.  We have major differences in our position concerning Jesus' Olivet Discourse, which I see The Revelation (and history) as being a key to---and vice versa.  And, on what looks like to be our particular disagreement above, what I am saying (to borrow from your words) is that the emphasis needs to be put where the emphasis needs to be put.  There has been lots of times of great tribulation, and there is going to continue to be.  Many have experienced great tribulation this very day.  You may have!  I don't see why there's a need to discuss this fact any further, as it just clouds a discussion to deny it.  What Jesus is saying is that there is coming a time of it that will be "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  And, it's going to be just like Jesus said!  And, I believe we both believe this!  We just happen to not believe the same concerning it.  Maybe one of these days...

[not an echo]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:15 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/1/2022 at 10:00 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your first paragraph, there is no evidence of "the last week" (Daniel's 70th Week) having actually begun until Revelation 11:1-3ff.  This is during the period of the 6th Trumpet, which is blown at sometime before (Rev. 9:13). 

Okay. The 6th trumpet begins the week. So the Euphrates is dried up and a demon army astride chimeras[for lack of an apt term] marches to begin the week? 

No, the 6th Trumpet does not begin the week, but during the first part of the 6th Trumpet period (Rev. 9:13-21), what remains for the preparing of the world's stage for the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week will be effected.  Consider...

In the first part of his account of the 6th Trumpet and second "woe" (Rev. 9:13-21), John speaks of four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates" being loosed.  He says of these angels that they were prepared "for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men" (vs. 15).  Whatever kind of war it is that now takes place, it results in an unprecedented slaughter.  Unlike "the fourth part of the earth" spoken of in Revelation 6:8---which is a geographical statement---John records plainly that "the third part of men" will be killed at this time (Rev. 9:15, 18).

Concerning the Euphrates, this river is like a line or a barrier between Israel and eastern Asia.  Actually, it is supposed to be Israel's eastern border (Deut. 11:24 and Josh. 1:1-4).  Isn't it amazing how the little country of Israel continues to exist on the same continent with such huge and hostile countries as those that lie on the other side of the Euphrates from it?  Is there some connection between this and the four angels that evidently are presently "bound" there (Rev. 9:14)?  Whatever the case, the populations of the nations east of this river easily represent one-third of the world's population.  China and India alone are populated by this many people.  And notice verse 20 of this 6th Trumpet passage.  There is no land upon the face of the earth whose people are more known for their worship of "idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood" than that of the Far East.  With the population of the Far West already out of the picture (Rev. 8:7-12/the "third part" easily concerns our Western Hemisphere), if the population of the Far East is also now taken out of the picture, the focus would be brought to bear upon Israel, the Middle East, Northern Africa, Asia Minor, and Europe---once again---as in the Bible days.

With the world's stage now completely reset, the "little book" is seen "open" in Revelation 10, which is the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  Then, as Revelation 11 opens, we see the first evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having begun---still during the 6th Trumpet period, which doesn't end until 11:14.

On 9/2/2022 at 3:15 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/1/2022 at 10:00 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your question, "Or was it the 7th trump?",  this is sounded at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week.  A simple evidence of this is seen in Revelation 11:3-14 (the first 3-1/2 years), noting especially the wording of verse 14.

You really should look at the Greek. The concepts in the terms are quite fascinating. For instance in verse 14 of the 11th chapter of Revelation it's not 'next' or 'soon' or 'rapidly on the heels of what came before', it's 'without unnecessary delay'. It's going to occur when it was predetermined to occur and not a minute later or earlier.

It looks like you may be suggesting the two witnesses are a 'woe'. They are not. The final three trumps are the woes as the angel proclaimed:

I am not suggesting that "the two witnesses are a 'woe'."  But, as should be apparent, they perform their calling during the period of the 6th Trumpet, which period is referred to as a "woe" (Rev. 8:13; 9:12-13; 11:14).  After the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" (Rev. 10) and the Antichrist begins to be worshipped (Rev. 11:1;  Matt. 24:15;  II Thess. 2:3-4), we see concerning the two witnesses for 3-1/2 years (Rev. 11:3-13), up until the end of this period (Rev. 11:14).

Edited May 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:37 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/31/2022 at 1:16 PM, not an echo said:

  As I have acknowledged, on the surface, it can be seen why it might be initially supposed that the "Last Trump" Paul speaks of in I Corinthians 15:52 is the trumpet sounded by the "seventh angel" of Revelation 11:15.  But, this is merely a surface impression that does not give due consideration to what is below the surface. 

And yet it is literally the last trump in a series of trumps related to and associated with the coming of Jesus. The only one. 

The coming of Jesus is  when the gathering occurs. If the gathering occurs at the last trump then there would have to another last trump, that's not the 7th trump, sounded at the gathering, and we probably have to know it is the last trump from some series of trumps.

Is there any evidence of a second series of trumps wherein we would be able to know the last trump is next to sound?

Concerning your first paragraph, whereas it can be said that the 7th Trumpet is "related to and associated with the coming of Jesus,"  it just needs to be understood that this trumpet will actually be sounded 3-1/2 years before His Second Advent.  This means that the only way this trumpet is "related to and associated with the coming of Jesus" is that the coming of Jesus (meaning His Second Advent) happens in the period heralded by the 7th Trumpet---not in conjunction with its sounding.

Concerning "the Last Trump" (I Cor. 15:52), of which Paul spoke, he also referred to this as "the Trump of God" (I Thess. 4:16).  That "the Trump of God" is a personalized trump is quite apparent!  Moreover, it is apparent that both it and what Paul refers to as "the Last Trump" are the "great sound of a trumpet" that Jesus spoke of, which is sounded in conjunction with the actual event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the gathering of "His elect" (Matt. 24:29-31), which happens with the opening of the 6th Seal.

Concerning your last question, I would submit that the trumpet which the children of Israel heard at Mt. Sinai was the Trump of God (Ex. 19:13, 16, 19).  Same with the trumpet spoken of by Zechariah (Zech. 9:14).  After the event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the gathering, there is no other trumpet spoken of in Scripture that will go into the unique category of the Trump of God.  This is all we should really need to accept it as "the Last Trump" that Paul spoke of.  Again, on the surface, it may be wondered if the 7th Trumpet is that of which Paul and Jesus spoke.  Below the surface, the 7th Trumpet fails to meet the necessary criteria.

Edited May 31, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 9/3/2022 at 5:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

I have to disagree.  What I show allows for the realization that what is manifest stems from spiritual realm activity indeed, and this happens a lot.  The spiritual realm overlap of the unseen into the physical realm of the seen is the "key of knowledge" (cp. Lk. 11:52 with Matt. 23:13).

Yes. But in this specific case the riders bring the manifestation we can witness. I'm not saying literal white, red, black and green horses with riders gallop about, but the effects will be seen and we will be able to relate those effects to the prophecy unequivocally; for those who are watching anyway. 

Clearly the horses and riders are symbols as much as they are real world causes to great effect.

It seems here that your words are so close to confirming what has been my position that you would be borderline to the accepting of it.  The "manifestation we can witness" and the "real world causes to great effect" can be seen to litter the world's historical landscape since the first century.  I'm reminded of a statement to this effect:  Sometimes we miss the fulfilling of prophecy until we look over our shoulders in retrospect.  When we look over our shoulders, there is certainly much to be seen.

The activity of the four horsemen, responsible for what Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse, has not ceased.  They are kicking up their dust even now, and as always, when the dust settles, all the litter of their activity remains---some of it to be made note of in the annals of history, some of it not.  But, all of it has continued to accumulate just the same, even up until this very day.  And now it has piled up to the point that everywhere one looks, it is as Paul warned (II Tim. 3:1-5).  Everywhere one looks, it is as Jesus said (Matt. 24:12).  Everywhere one looks, it is as it was in the days of Noah (Gen. 6:5, 11-12).  Everywhere one looks, we have what has become the prophesied last days' normal.  And, what is representative of the last days' normal will continue unabated, until the day that the 6th and 7th Seals are opened, which day could be paralleled to that day in Noah's time, when "all the fountains of the great deep [were] broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11). 

That what Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse is yet (after 2000 years!) seen to litter the historical landscape of the world---instead of not---is something that should give atheists and scoffers great pause.  Things could have been a lot different, but they are not.  Meaning?  Meaning, things could have been such that none would even presume to put themselves forward to be some kind of Messiah, or Christ, but many have since Christ's time, and several have in our own generation.  New Testament teachings could have become so widely embraced and unquestioned that the word "denomination" would not even fit anything concerning the NT Church.  Christianity could have had such a far reaching impact that wars, in our generation, would be considered something of the long distant past.  Modern man, with much pride, could have made such advances that things such as world hunger and pestilences are no longer a concern.  Or, there could have been a relaxing along all of earth's fault lines to the point that earthquakes never happen any more.  Christians could have become so very respected that none would even think in terms of persecuting, much less martyring them.  On the flip side, they could have faded from history like a little cult that never really got established.  Again, things could have turned out a lot differently, but they have not.  If things were different than they are, the merits of Biblical prophecy could be more understandably called into question.

On 9/3/2022 at 5:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

Trumpets 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 concern the resetting of the world's stage for the final fulfilling of Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy, and it's ultimate fulfilling, more specifically, the last week (or seven years) of it.  When the world's stage is readied, the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" and the seven years commence.  The first 3-1/2 years are shown in 11:3-14, still during the period of the 6th Trumpet.  With the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, the mid-point of the seven years is reached, which marks the time of the final show down, or the finishing of "the mystery of God...as He hath declared to His servants the prophets" (Rev. 10:7;  Dan. 12:7).

The section in bold is curious. If the 1st 3.5 years is shown there and is the time of the 6th trump, then trumps 1-5 have sounded, in the 1st half of the week. That aligns after a fashion with what I have been saying, and with what is said in Joel where all the green grass is burned up by the midpoint. 

It's not a perfect match of course.

As the week commences and proceeds then the grass is gone, the sea is dead zone, the water is bitter, the light is diminished, locusts torment men and a 200 million 'man' army is laying waste to everything. All before the midpoint and right up to the midpoint?

Aren't you saying all the trumps sound before the week even begins? You said the trumps 'reset' before the last week begins. Then you say the 1st half of the week is still the 6th trump. That would mean the 7th hasn't sounded. But you said before that all the trumps sound in a "resetting of the world's stage". 

You sure?

Concerning your first paragraph, I'm not really getting where you are coming from with your statement, "then trumps 1-5 have sounded, in the 1st half of the week."  If you read your statement again, maybe you will see what I'm talking about.

Concerning your third and fourth paragraphs, to further (and once again) clarify my position, I see no evidence in Scripture that "the week" will have commenced before the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" in Revelation 10.  Overall, I believe that what you are understanding to be my position may be being distorted somewhat by your own understanding(s).  I hope that what I show below will help to better "lock it in" concerning some of the particulars of my position that you are not fully seeing yet:

1.  My position concerning the first 10 chapters of The Revelation is that what is revealed here is in the most strict chronological order than can even be conceived.  As I have said before---and this will continue to be seen to hold---it is not even within the realm of possibility to put what is revealed in Revelation chapters 1-10 in a more chronological order.  It is essential that you remain mindful of this when you are considering my position.

2.  As far as what we see in The Revelation, Daniel's 70th Week will not begin, in any kind of way, whatsoever, UNTIL AFTER the "little book" is seen "open" (Rev. 10), which I submit to be the little book of Daniel (Dan. 12:4, 8-10).  This is also substantiated by what we see with the opening three verses of Revelation 11---the first evidences that Daniel's 70th Week has begun.

3.  While the "little book" is seen "open" during the period of the 6th Trumpet, what happens during this period, until it is seen opened (Rev. 9:13-21), amounts to the finishing of what I call the stage reset, just prior to the beginning of Daniel's 70th Week.  Unsurprisingly, evidences point to this part of the stage reset (again, Rev. 9:13-21) having to do with the east side of the stage (i.e., the Far East being taken out of the picture).  With the stage all readied and the world's focus brought to bear---once again---upon the lands of the Bible days, think of what we find in Revelation 10 as being like the announcement...

"IT'S TIME!!!"

I can't help but to think of Bruce Buffer, of UFC fame.  I've never heard anyone say it with the enthusiasm that he does.  Annnyway, then think of Revelation 11 as being like the pulling back of the stage curtains...

FOR DANIEL'S 70 WEEK TO BEGIN.

4.  Interestingly, what we have for us now revealed (in Revelation chapters 11-20/the next 10 chapters), concerns the ultimate fulfilling of Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy.  By this I mean, the fulfilling of the 70th, or Last Week (chapters 11-19), then the whole of what this prophecy ultimately concerned in the first place (chapter 20), as spoken in Daniel 9...

24 SEVENTY WEEKS are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, TO finish the transgression, AND TO make an end of sins, AND TO make reconciliation for iniquity, AND TO bring in everlasting righteousness, AND TO seal up the vision and prophecy, AND TO anoint the Most Holy.

5.  In accord with all the foregoing, and recapping some, Daniel's 70th Week will begin at some time during the period of the 6th Trumpet, but not until after the "little book" of Daniel is seen "open" (Rev. 10).  The first 3-1/2 years of the 70th week will be completed during the remainder of the 6th Trumpet period, as shown in Revelation 11:3-14.  This leaves the other half of the week (mentioned in 11:2), which will begin with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.  At the sounding of the 7th Trumpet (Rev. 11:15), proclamations are made in Heaven of what this trumpet heralds (vs. 15), and of what the period of it holds (vs. 18).  Revelation chapters 12-20 expound this period, in a chronological, howbeit, overlapping method, as I have shown several times before.  I feel that it would only be fitting to show it once again now...

DETAILS OF THE PERIOD HERALDED BY THE SEVENTH TRUMPET

(REV. 12)---SPIRITUAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's activity against Israel (vs.1/ Gen. 37:9-11) leading up to this time (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The war in the heavenlies resulting in Satan being cast down unto the earth (vss. 7-9)

   C.  Satan's activity against Israel / Beginning of last half of Daniel's 70th Week (vss. 10-17)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 3 with 17:3);  (vs. 10 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:14)

(REV. 13)---PHYSICAL REALM SCENE OF SATAN'S ACTIVITY DISCLOSED

   A.  Satan's rise in the political realm as the beast of his revived Babylon empire (vss. 1-10)

   B.  Satan's rise in the religious realm as the false prophet of his harlot church (vss. 11-14)

   C.  Satan's despotic rule through the beast (Antichrist) and the false prophet (vss. 15-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 1 with 12:3);  (vss. 1-3ff with 17:7-12ff);  (vs. 7 with 12:11)

(REV. 14)---TRIUMPH OF THE 144,000 SAINTS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of the 144,000 saints in Heaven, and a last call for world to turn to God (vss. 1-7)

   B.  The doom of all who worship the beast / The reaping of the wicked, and God's wrath (vss. 8-20)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 7 with 11:18);  (vs. 8 with 16:19 and 18:2ff)

(REV. 15)---TRIUMPH OF DANIEL'S 70TH WEEK MARTYRS DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of Daniel's 70th Week martyrs in Heaven, and their song (vss. 1-4)

   B.  Preparation for the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath (vss. 5-8)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 2 with 13:15, 14:9-13, and 20:4);  (vss. 5-8 with 11:18 and 16:1-21)

(REV. 16)---SEVEN VIALS OF GOD'S WRATH DISCLOSED

   A.  Angels instructed to pour out the seven vials of God's wrath upon the earth (vs. 1)

   B.  The results of the pouring out of God's wrath upon the earth (vss. 2-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 14-16 with 19:19);  (vss. 17-21 with 11:18-19);  (vs. 19 with 14:7-8, 20)

(REV. 17)---JUDGMENT OF THE GREAT WHORE DISCLOSED

   A.  John's seeing of the woman upon the scarlet beast (red dragon), and his wonder (vss. 1-6)

   B.  The mystery surrounding the woman and the beast explained, and her fate (vss. 7-18)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 8 with 13:3-4, 8);  (vs. 14 with 19:11-14ff)

(REV. 18)---JUDGMENT OF BABYLON THE GREAT DISCLOSED

   A.  The fall of Babylon the great, and the lament of those who were loyal to it (vss. 1-19)

   B.  The call to rejoice over the fall of Babylon / The finality of its destruction (vss. 20-24)

   OVERLAPS---(vs. 5 with 16:19);  (vs. 8 with 16:17-21);  (vss. 10, 17, and 19 with 14:7-8)

(REV. 19)---THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST DISCLOSED

   A.  Scene of rejoicing in preparation for Christ's return / The Second Coming of Christ (vss. 1-16)

   B.  The Battle of Armageddon, and the doom of the beast and the false prophet (vss. 17-21)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 1-6 with 11:15-17);  (vs. 15ff with 14:17-20)

(REV. 20)---CHRIST'S REIGN AND LAST JUDGMENT DISCLOSED

   A.  The binding of Satan, Christ's thousand year reign, and Satan's ultimate doom (vss. 1-10) 

   B.  The "Great White Throne Judgment" and ultimate doom of the lost (vss. 11-15)

   OVERLAPS---(vss. 4-6 with 11:15);  (vs. 12 with 11:18)

On 9/3/2022 at 5:52 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

What do you think is meant by "whoso readeth"?  It is prophecies "spoken by Daniel the prophet" that Christ just mentioned, and this is also reinforced by all the prophetic points of convergence.

Doesn't matter. I'm asking for proof the book Daniel sealed is the same as the little book from Rev 10. I don't think it is. I see no proof it is. It seems the book Daniel sealed is the one we read today; "But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end."

The angel, Gabriel I assume, said, "...shut up these words...". One must conclude the words are the ones Gabriel gave to Daniel in the cohesive vision of 9-12. So it's these words that are sealed in this book, the book of Daniel, specifically chapters 9-12.

How is this then the little book of Rev 10?

Concerning your first paragraph, if you mean the book of Daniel that we find between Ezekiel and Hosea, that's exactly what I mean!  The unsealing of it has to do with understanding the fullness of its meanings (the prophetic meanings)---things that had even Daniel scratching his head.

Concerning your last tw0 paragraphs, I believe I see what you are saying, but I'm not seeing what you see to be the problem.  But, let me pose things just a little differently:  First of all, do you think the "little book" John sees "open" has anything to do with the little book of Daniel?  A yes will be enough for me---and my position.

Now, let me take things a little further and say again something that I haven't said in a while:  Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy is the hub around which Daniel's prophecies revolve.  Daniel's Seventy Weeks' prophecy (Dan. 9:24-27) is not one of the spokes, nor is it the rim---it is the hub around which all of his other prophecies revolve.  I'm not hearing anyone else say or even suggest this, not in books, not in comments, and not in the web world.  But, it needs to be said.  And, it needs to be understood.  And, it will be---more and more (Dan. 12:4).

What is the "time of the end" (Dan. 12:4)?  We are there (Matt. 24:14).  What is the next thing on the prophetic horizon?  It is what I have often referred to as the intersecting event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30).  This will take place at the opening of the 6th Seal, which can take place at any time, at which time "He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His Elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matt. 24:31).

The "great sound of a trumpet" Jesus is speaking of is one of a kind, referred to by Paul as "the Trump of God" and also "the Last Trump."  The Trump of God is in a category all by itself---it ever has been and ever will be.  After the resurrection and the rapture of the Church, we have no evidence in Scripture that it will ever be sounded again.  The next sounding of the Trump of God will be the last time that it will ever be sounded.  It is by no means the trumpet that is sounded by "the seventh angel" in Revelation 11:15.  By this, I am not suggesting that the 7th Trumpet is of no more importance than the others.  The sounding of each one of the seven trumpets represents an escalation, and this is to be noted.  But, it is still the last in a series of judgment trumpets, given to angels to sound---and sounded by angels.  It should not be confused with the Trump of God.

The Trump of God is easily in the category of the most special trump that could be imagined, and the sound of it should be something that is longed for by all of God's children.  Its sounding will mark the beginning of the end proper---of the time when God will begin to wrap all this thing up having to do with this present world---The beginning of the last days' Day of the Lord.  It will be the call for the resurrection of the bodies of God's children who have gone on before and the call of the harvest of His children who remain at that time (Rev. 7:9-17).  It is well after this, after the angels' sounding of six other trumpets, that the "seventh angel" will sound.  Moreover, it is 3-1/2 years after this before the event of Christ's Second Advent will take place.

Sometimes it can't be seen what it is until it can be seen what it can't be.  In answer to the topic of this thread, what we find in the depths of Scripture reveals that the seventh trumpet cannot be the Trump of God.  Whatever it may look like on the surface, it is what is revealed below the surface that provides for us the full truth of the matter.  When it is more fully realized what all is below the surface---and this is duly regarded---navigation becomes much more rewarding and sure.

[WilliamL]

On 9/15/2022 at 7:06 PM, not an echo said:

On 8/30/2022 at 12:03 PM, WilliamL said:

First of all, my positions are made abundantly clear in my blogs, and well-summarized in my siggy below. Index and summaries of blog articles here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles/

Hello William,

I clicked on your link here a few times, but this is all I get...

"We could not locate the item you are trying to view."

Your other links seemed to work fine...

Yup, sorry about that; just discovered it myself. Been some glitches in the overall blog program recently that have messed with my posts.

[not an echo]

On 9/3/2022 at 6:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

Let me make sure I'm understanding you.  You have given an order and you say, "In that order."  You have "The sounding of the trump" coming after "His arrival" and "The mourning of the nations" and "The Sign." 

SMH. It's not me. I'm not ordering anything. It's what's written. I have said that before and I'm going to keep saying it. I have also said, "I read and repeat." That's all I'm doing.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God," 1 Thess 4

Paul says the above is the coming of Jesus our Lord. WITH an loud command, WITH the archangel, WITH the trumpet.

Below is what Jesus says.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,c and all the tribes of the earth will mourn."

First the sign...

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory"

Then He is seen immediately after...

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call,"

The angels are sent out with the trump.

"and they will gather His elect from the four winds,"

Then the gathering. In that order. Why? Because that's what Jesus said. The same Jesus who is Lord and King over all. The same Jesus who spoke words we twist and ignore to our own purpose. 

I'm going to stick with what Jesus said and let that sword do it's work.

Concerning your opening paragraph and concluding statements of your last two paragraphs, I'm not questioning or seeking to change the order Diaste.  I'm questioning which prophetic puzzle pieces you are putting in the order and how these fit the puzzle section of the 7th Trumpet.

The statement you quoted of me had to do with a question I asked you of your order and the sounding of the 7th Trumpet.  I had asked you if you have "His arrival" and "The mourning of the nations" and "The Sign" (as you are understanding these) in the period of the 6th Trumpet.  In other words, if these (according to your understanding) precede the 7th Trumpet, then they must occur in the period of the 6th Trumpet, and this represents a conflict with Scripture.  I was wondering how you find support for this.

Whatever we are believing, our beliefs must align with all that is revealed in Scripture---everywhere.  And, I would like to say that I believe you believe this as well.  This was my goal when I went down the path of seeking the truth of the matter for myself.  And, what I show represents such an understanding.

Relating to the discussion of this particular post, when it is understood that the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-31) happens at the opening of the 6th Seal and is not His Second Advent, this understanding fits all of Scripture---especially when the basics of what is involved with the opening of a sealed book is accepted.  This understanding has the "great sound of a trumpet" and the gathering also happening at this time (Matt. 24:31), which dovetails with Paul's words in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessalonians 4:16-17, where he refers to the trumpet Jesus speaks of as "the Last Trump" and "the Trump of God" respectively.

All of this also fits with the interlude section of the 6th Seal (Rev. 7), as we see 144,000 of "all the tribes" (Rev. 7:4/Matt. 24:30) sealed and the "great multitude" (Rev. 7:9/Matt. 24:31) just gathered.  The 144,000 that are sealed at this time are referred to later as "the firstfruits" (Rev. 14:4) that were redeemed, so for me, it is quite easy to see these as recognizing Jesus as their Messiah at the time of His Sign Appearance, and of their mourning (Matt. 24:30) in repentance over His having been crucified.  Of course, there will be a mourning at the time of His Second Advent as well.

The "great multitude" is said to have "came out of great tribulation" (Rev. 7:14), which also dovetails with Jesus' words (Matt. 24:29) and what has been the experience of Christ's NT Church down through the centuries, stemming in big part from the activity of the four horsemen.

On the other hand, what happens with, and at the time of, the sounding of the 7th Trumpet does not fit the grouping of the preceding prophetic puzzle pieces.  When the differences between Christ's Sign Appearance and His Second Advent are more fully understood, puzzle pieces that have too long kept God's children divided begin to come together in such a way that everything fits---and in a most interesting way.

Also interesting is how long it has all been there, right before our eyes---and missed.  Chief among the reasons has been the efforts of scholarship to understand it all by scholarship---which has only further obscured the truth of the matter, making the truth of the matter even more difficult to see.

On 9/3/2022 at 6:18 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/3/2022 at 12:35 AM, not an echo said:

 I know that by "The sounding of the trump" you are meaning the 7th Trumpet.  Are you then meaning that what you show preceding this trumpet, "His arrival" and "The mourning of the nations" and "The Sign",  will happen in the period of the 6th Trumpet?

I think the seals are the outline. I see seals as general conditions that prevail throughout with the exception of the 6th and 7th; both of these are near the end. Seals 1-4 are conditions that will exist from beginning to end, or very near to the beginning. The 5th seal has a time limit as well.

I don't see the trumps as creating the same prevailing, lengthy conditions unless so stated. The 6th trump has a specific purpose. Once the purpose has been reached it's over. Could be over immediately before the 7th trump, could be over much earlier, maybe it extends beyond the 7th trump, it's not clear exactly when it begins only that it won't happen before the angels bound at the Euphrates are released and most certainly at a time when repentance is still on the table.

How is it over and what does that look like? Time will tell I suppose.

Concerning this reply as a whole, I'm not really able to "download" it, if you will.

In your second paragraph, concerning your statements about the 6th Trumpet relative to the 7th Trumpet, following is what Scripture reads of the ending of the one period and the beginning of the other.  From Revelation 11...

14 The second woe (period of the 6th Trumpet) IS PAST; and, behold, the third woe (period of the 7th Trumpet) COMETH QUICKLY.

Why would you say, "Could be over immediately before the 7th trump, could be over much earlier, maybe it extends beyond the 7th trump, it's not clear exactly when it begins only that it won't happen before the angels bound at the Euphrates are released and most certainly at a time when repentance is still on the table"?