WilliamL Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,141 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,563 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Share Posted April 13, 2021 1 hour ago, leah777 said: I disagree that God egged on Satan in any way. God set guidelines around what satan was allowed to do. God deliberately pointed out Job (alone) to Satan, extolling Job's virtuousness. Like waving a red flag in the face of a bull. A very jealous red bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverwalker Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 92 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,054 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 1,753 Days Won: 4 Joined: 12/09/2014 Status: Offline Author Share Posted April 13, 2021 38 minutes ago, WilliamL said: I think that you are now just shooting from the hip. "But Job did not ... suffer personally..." ?? Then why was he scraping the puss off of his skin, while wanting to die? And the death of his children, that did not cause him to suffer personally?? And, "there is no Justice in that..." So what God allowed, even egged on Satan to do, was unjust? Sounds like you want to come up with anything to try to dis my posts. And now you are taking it personally. I am merely disagreeing with you. (Is that okay?) My point is, and the reason for my originally posting this, is perhaps there is another answer as to how this happened. Perhaps it was the fear of Job that opened the hedge of protection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2021 3 hours ago, WilliamL said: Nothing of anything I said should lead anyone to think I don't believe what God said about Job. Because I do. You are simply ignoring the issue I brought up: why did God set up Job to be assaulted by Satan? Job was a righteous man in God's eyes at the time that the book commenced. That does not mean that Job was always a righteous man, and had never done any evil thing, even if out of ignorance. Paul did great evils before his conversion, and thereafter led a righteous life. And also an extremely afflicted life, suffering more than any of the other apostles at the hands of accusers. Why? Are the two situations possibly parallel. Likely so. There is such a narrow-mindedness among many professors of Christ these days, which is so reminiscent of the narrow-mindedness of the Jews at the time of Christ's first coming. That attitude of the Jews blinded them from any source of understanding outside of their man-made doctrines. So it is today. The source upon which I am depending, is the Bible, which is God-breathed. You are the one introducing uninspired sources, which is like the Jews trusting the Talmud. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 72 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,274 Content Per Day: 7.10 Reputation: 13,298 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2021 On 4/1/2021 at 1:09 PM, David1701 said: This is standard teaching of the WoF movement; but, there is no evidence that Job's fear is the reason why God allowed the devil to torment Job like this. It is certainly not the theme of the book, which is about wisdom, suffering, God's sovereignty, pride and humility. Indeed. The book of Job was the first work of scripture I read after the conclusion of my own fiery trial and at no time was Job convicted of sin nor wrongdoing. If he were, then the Lord wouldn't have directed His servant Job to pray for those who judged him in error. From the beginning of the book until the conclusion, Job didn't sin. We see the perfect judgment of the Lord expressed in His appraisal of Job to the accuser. If a man weren't upright, would God declare him to be? I approve of your summation because these matters are conveyed by Job's example, the same things I learned from reading the book. It was good for me to learn about the nature of our suffering. I'm certainly not blameless so I suffer, but is this such a hard thing when His servant Job who was blameless also suffered? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 72 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,274 Content Per Day: 7.10 Reputation: 13,298 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2021 It was a foreshadowing of the Word made flesh, the Lamb of God. He was blameless and perfect in every way and yet He was tempted by the evil one... accused of wrongdoing by His fellows though He did no wrong... and betrayed by His friend. He was numbered among transgressors. Some deeply spiritual concepts are revealed in the book of Job, things that some find unpalatable. For example, the fact that the accuser was welcome in the presence of God and His assembly; he was not cast out nor rebuked. What does this say? The accuser has a role defined for him by Almighty God Himself. He's supposed to be an accuser... our accuser. He fulfilled his prescribed role by accusing Job of fearing God for nothing. The fact that the Lord granted the accuser's petition is also remarkable. Exceedingly deep, that one. The accuser isn't the adversary of God, my friends, because there is no other like the Lord. No one can stand against Him. The accuser is therefore our adversary. Job was sorely tempted by our adversary throughout his fiery trial; even his wife chided him for not cursing the name of God! His friends accused him of sin which he did not commit. All too familiar, that one. Job is one of the most beautiful books of scripture and I'm blessed whenever I return to read it once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Marathoner said: Indeed. The book of Job was the first work of scripture I read after the conclusion of my own fiery trial and at no time was Job convicted of sin nor wrongdoing. If he were, then the Lord wouldn't have directed His servant Job to pray for those who judged him in error. From the beginning of the book until the conclusion, Job didn't sin. We see the perfect judgment of the Lord expressed in His appraisal of Job to the accuser. If a man weren't upright, would God declare him to be? I approve of your summation because these matters are conveyed by Job's example, the same things I learned from reading the book. It was good for me to learn about the nature of our suffering. I'm certainly not blameless so I suffer, but is this such a hard thing when His servant Job who was blameless also suffered? Job started out blameless, but, before the end of the book, he started to justify himself, instead of God. That is why God rebuked him, saying, "Who is this who darkens counsel without knowledge?". Job 38:1-3 (KJV) 1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. It is also why Job said the following; and note God's reply. Job 40:1-8 (KJV) 1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. 3 ¶Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. 6 ¶Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Job definitely sinned (under extreme provocation, from attacks by the devil and false accusations from his friends); but he repented and prayed for his friends, then God restored to him more than he'd lost. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marathoner Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 16 Topic Count: 72 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,274 Content Per Day: 7.10 Reputation: 13,298 Days Won: 99 Joined: 05/24/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, David1701 said: Job started out blameless, but, before the end of the book, he started to justify himself, instead of God. That is why God rebuked him, saying, "Who is this who darkens counsel without knowledge?". Job 38:1-3 (KJV) 1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. It is also why Job said the following; and note God's reply. Job 40:1-8 (KJV) 1 Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, 2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. 3 ¶Then Job answered the Lord, and said, 4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. 5 Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. 6 ¶Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 7 Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Job definitely sinned (under extreme provocation, from attacks by the devil and false accusations from his friends); but he repented and prayed for his friends, then God restored to him more than he'd lost. By Job's confession, he didn't understand. Until the Lord revealed Himself to Job he had only heard with his ears. I'm not disputing error on Job's part, but was this sin? Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:1-6) Job couldn't comprehend God until the Lord opened his eyes. I would think this expresses the truth of our first estate, how we are blind and cannot see, more than it assigns blame to Job. We're sown in corruption and this isn't of our own doing, but of course I'm not claiming that we're sinless because we both know the truth of that. Yet the Lord declared Job to be an upright and blameless man. When the Lord reveals Himself to us as we are chosen by Him, we're undone and just like Job, repent in dust and ashes. Just my thoughts. Edited April 13, 2021 by Marathoner typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted April 13, 2021 4 minutes ago, Marathoner said: By Job's confession, he didn't understand. Until the Lord revealed Himself to Job he had only heard with his ears. I'm not disputing error on Job's part, but was this sin? Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” (Job 42:1-6) Job couldn't comprehend God until the Lord opened his eyes. I would think this expresses the truth of our first estate, how we are blind and cannot see, more than it assigns blame to Job. We're sown in corruption and this isn't of our own doing, but of course I'm not claiming that we're sinless because we both know the truth of that. Yet the Lord declared Job to be an upright and blameless man. When the Lord reveals Himself to us as we are chosen by Him, we're undone and just like Job, repent in dust and ashes. Just my thoughts. Job justified himself instead of God - that is sin. I still cringe, when I read some of what Job says about justifying himself before God; needless to say, when the opportunity comes along, he can do no such thing. He was under the most extreme pressure, but it was still sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Paul James Posted April 13, 2021 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 771 Content Per Day: 0.52 Reputation: 392 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/27/2020 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1947 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2021 From what I know of the book of Job, it was God who pointed out Job as being a totally righteous and upright man. It was Satan who responded with a "yes...but!' The challenge was that it was all very well for a guy to be righteous and godly when everything is going well, but would he continue his faith if he lost everything? God knew that Job would stand firm, and He let Satan deprive Job of family and possessions to prove Satan wrong. Job's wife didn't share his resolve and she was prepared to give up at the first hurdle by saying to him, "curse God and die!" When Satan saw that Job wasn't going to crumble, he upped the stakes by asseting that if Job's health was taken away, then he would lose his faith. So God let him do that, but prevented Satan from killing Job. Anyway, what would have been the point of killing Job? Nothing would have been proved then. The point of the whole scenario is that Job maintained his faith in God come hell or high water. It shows us that even if we lose everything, including our health, and we end up on a dung heap covered in festering sores, there is no reason to be discouraged and to throw away our faith in God. That is the crucial lesson in the book of Job, and that is why we have it in our Bible. 2 1 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted April 14, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted April 14, 2021 In trying to understand what the devil was doing in his challenge to God we forget that God “knew” what the devil was going to ask of God. God knew and knows our thoughts and words before we speak just as He knew what Satan would ask....but He also knew what Job would do and say. There was no surprise for almighty God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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