Unclean spirits with regional interests

[Justin Adams]

2 minutes ago, BibleReader said:

So the miraculous cures Jesus performed

Yeshua went to Gentiles (Samaritans) and outcast areas and Bashan. He performed miracles all over and when He sent out the 70, it was a hint that God wanted to reclaim all nations, even those scattered at Babel under the 'care' of lesser gods that sinned (Psalm 82). The nations in Deut 32 were put under the 70 sons of God. It is the original Abramic promise that He will bless all nations.

[BibleReader]

16 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Think about these words of Jesus, "And when you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies," .

How is it possible to see this unless it happens in your lifetime?

Thank you for your input.   If I'm not mistaken, you mention that people listening to Jesus would have to see the events of Luke 21 happen in their lifetime.  Please note the following Biblical examples that may put an interesting perspective on things:

• Haggai 2:5:  "According to the covenant that I made with you when you came out of Egypt. My Spirit remains in your midst. Fear not."  (Did the people of Haggai's day see the covenant that God made with Israel when it came out of Egypt?  If not, why would God be addressing the nation as "you" through the prophet Haggai?)
• Amos 2:10:  "Also it was I who brought you up out of the land of Egypt and led you forty years in the wilderness, to possess the land of the Amorite."  (Did the people of Amos' day see when God brought Israel out of Egypt?  If not, why would God be addressing the nation as "you" through the prophet Amos?)
• Micah 6:4, 7:15:  "For I brought you up from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, and I sent before you Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. . . As in the days when you came out of the land of Egypt, I will show them marvelous things.""  (Did the people of Micah's day see when God brought Israel out of Egypt? If not, why would God be addressing the nation as "you" through the prophet Micah?)

From the examples given above, it might seem as though the word "you" can be like a piece of elastic that stretches over hundreds, if not thousands of years.  Is it possible that Jesus was using the word "you" in the same sense?  Could the word generation also carry a timeless sense and be referring to a class of people instead of a lifespan?  Please notice the following examples where the word "generation" seems to carry a timeless sense:  

• Psalm 12:7: "You, O Lord, will keep them; you will guard us from this generation forever."
• Psalm 14:5:  "There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous."  
• Psalm 24:5, 6:  "He will receive blessing from the Lord and righteousness from the God of his salvation.  Such is the generation of those who seek him, who seek the face of the God of Jacob."  
• Proverbs 30:11:  "There is a generation of those who curse their fathers and do not bless their mothers."  (Berean Study Bible)

Of course we understand that the Greek and Hebrew carry different meanings for the word "generation" next to the English word.  But you might find it interesting to note that even in the English language, at least as far back as the 1828 Webster's dictionary, the word generation had 6 different meanings and definition 5 was "A family; a race" and definition 6 was "Progeny; offspring".  ( http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/generation )

Michael, I'm trying my best not to be dogmatic on my side, yet is it possible, just possible that Jesus used the word "you" to refer to a specific class of people and the word "generation" in the same way instead of referring to a lifespan?

Edited April 11, 2021 by BibleReader

[Michael37]

1 hour ago, BibleReader said:

Michael, I'm trying my best not to be dogmatic on my side, yet is it possible, just possible that Jesus used the word "you" to refer to a specific class of people and the word "generation" in the same way instead of referring to a lifespan?

All good, BibleReader. I can tell from your style that you are not striving to force agreement with your thoughts, and nor am I so it is good that you have exhorted correctly on the application of Scripture passages that extend beyond their immediate context.

The scribes and Pharisees that confronted Jesus asking for a sign were given a twofold answer:

• An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign.
• The only sign to be given them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.  

Mat 12:39  But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Jesus then gave his challengers a twofold warning of demonic dangers:

•  An illustration to describe their perilous condition.
• A prophecy to foretell their consequential future. 

Quote from Albert Barnes' Notes on Matthew 12:43-45

When the unclean spirit ... - The “general sentiment” which our Saviour here teaches is much more easily understood than the illustration which he uses. The Jews had asked a sign from heaven that should decisively prove that he was the Messiah, and satisfy their unbelief. He replies that, though he should give them such a sign a proof conclusive and satisfactory, and though for a time they should profess to believe and apparently reform, yet such was the obstinacy of their unbelief and wickedness, that they would soon return to their former course. and become worse and worse. Infidelity and wickedness, like an evil spirit in a possessed man, were appropriately at “home” in them. If driven out, they would find no other place so comfortable and undisturbed as their bosoms. Everywhere they would be, comparatively, like an evil spirit going through deserts and lonely places, and finding no place of rest. They would return, therefore, and dwell with them.

[BibleReader]

2 hours ago, Michael37 said:

The scribes and Pharisees that confronted Jesus asking for a sign were given a twofold answer:

• An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign.
• The only sign to be given them is the sign of the prophet Jonah.  

Mat 12:39  But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

Perfect.  

Now, an important question to answer is whether Israel would receive one more punishment in the future.  Depending on the answer, it could tie things back around to Matthew 12:43-45.  

Here are some possible lines of evidence that Israel would receive a final punishment in the future: 

• Jeremiah chapter 30 - Verse 7 describes a time of distress for Israel, verse 8 describes God breaking the yoke and bonds of Israel and verse 9 describes Israel serving God and David their king.  Verse 24 wraps it all up:  "In the latter days you will understand this."  Since Israel is not yet serving "David their king", could the "time of distress" for Israel that would precede the serving of their king be referring to the future?
• Ezekiel 21:25-27 - It describes Israel's "final punishment".  Obviously Israel's "final punishment" could not have occurred during the Babylonian siege since Israel received another crushing blow at the hands of the Romans in 70 C.E.  Also, the prophecy doesn't seem to be referring to 70 C.E. since the prophecy states:  "Remove the turban and take off the crown."  There was no crown in Israel to take off at that time due to the Israel's continual subjugation by the Romans.  
• Ezekiel 35:5, 8, 10 - According to prophecy, Edom would give Israel over to its enemies at the time of its "final punishment".  This did not happen in 70 C.E., rather, the historian Josephus says that 20,000 Idumaeans helped the Jewish Zealots fight for independence from Rome.  
• Jesus spoke of a time of trouble in Jerusalem that would be followed "immediately" by the "sign of the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".  (Matthew 24:15-31; Mark 13:14-27; Luke 21:20-27) This hasn't happened yet, has it?  

Will there be a final punishment of Israel in the future?  

Edited April 12, 2021 by BibleReader

[Marilyn C]

On 4/10/2021 at 7:10 AM, BibleReader said:

 

Here are my questions for you:  What did Jesus mean with the words "this evil generation", was he referring to a specific nation or something else?  If he was referring to a nation, when in history did the unclean spirit return with "seven other spirits more evil than itself", or is it pointing to the future instead of the past?  Lastly, which area on earth are the unclean spirits most interested in today?  

Hi Bible Reader,

Very important questions as demons are becoming more noticeable especially in the West where they were mainly hidden.

1. This evil generation I believe refers to those who crucified the Lord of glory.

2. Unclean spirits are everywhere. Today there is so much unclean behaviour with so much filth to see right in the homes on TV and computors etc. People `open the door` to these unclean spirits and many other types by habitual watching and doing unclean things.

3. These demonic spirits, plus a host of other ones are under the rulers of darkness, and these in turn are under the Principalities and Powers. (Eph. 6: 12) The hierarchy of the kingdom of darkness is from when they were angelic beings in the third heaven. 

regards, Marilyn.   

BTW I am preparing notes for my blog on `The Final Battle becoming Overcomers.` I deal with these demonic beings and what they are doing and how to be overcomes. I will post it in a few weeks. 

[Michael37]

5 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Jeremiah chapter 30 - Verse 7 describes a time of distress for Israel, verse 8 describes God breaking the yoke and bonds of Israel and verse 9 describes Israel serving God and David their king.  Verse 24 wraps it all up:  "In the latter days you will understand this."  Since Israel is not yet serving "David their king", could the "time of distress" for Israel that would precede the serving of their king be referring to the future?

As a guide when I am seeking clarification of some verse or passage I study the whole book and make sure the chapter of the passage and the verses under scrutiny harmonise with it in context and in the applicable cross-references of the entire Bible.

Points to Note:

•  Jeremiah 30 is written to Israel and Judah, a division that no longer exists. 

Jer 30:4  And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

• As with Jeremiah 30, it is always the same deal with God's People past, present, and future.

1. Captivity and Bondage as a consequence of Disobedience.
2. Deliverance and Restoration as a consequence of God's Grace.
3. Comfort and Salvation with assured destruction of enemies. 

6 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Ezekiel 21:25-27 - It describes Israel's "final punishment".  Obviously Israel's "final punishment" could not have occurred during the Babylonian siege since Israel received another crushing blow at the hands of the Romans in 70 C.E.  Also, the prophecy doesn't seem to be referring to 70 C.E. since the prophecy states:  "Remove the turban and take off the crown."  There was no crown in Israel to take off at that time due to the Israel's continual subjugation by the Romans.  

Proclaimed in 593BC by Ezekiel during his exile in Babylon, I'm not sure why you think this passage describes Israel's "final" punishment but it certainly foretells the 586BC Fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar and the deposing of Zedekiah the profane and wicked prince of Israel. 

Ezekiel in Babylon
Eze 1:1  Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God. 
Eze 1:2  In the fifth day of the month, which was the fifth year of king Jehoiachin's captivity, 
Eze 1:3  The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon him. 

Quote from Believer's Bible Commentary on 2 Kings 24:8-16
G. King Jehoiachin (24:8-16)

Jehoiachin, also called Jeconiah and Coniah, son of Jehoiakim, was king of Judah for three months (598–597 B.C.; cf. 2Ki_25:27-30; 2Ch_36:9-10).
During the short reign of this wicked king, Nebuchadnezzar . . . besieged the city of Jerusalem and carried away a second group of captives. Ezekiel was taken to Babylon in this deportation. Also included were the royal family, 7000 soldiers, and the trained craftsmen. In fact, only the poorest people of the land were left. Nebuchadnezzar also took treasures from the temple and from the king's palace. Verse 14 says that there were ten thousand captives in all. Jeremiah says that 4600 captives were taken (Jer_52:28-30). The number in Kings may include captives taken on other occasions as well. After Jehoiachin had been in captivity for thirty-seven years, Evil-Merodach, the king of Babylon, freed him from prison, set him above the other captive kings, gave him a position of honor in the court, and provided liberally for him (2Ki_25:27-30).

The Prophet Ezekiel began his ministry at this period.

7 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Ezekiel 35:5, 8, 10 - According to prophecy, Edom would give Israel over to its enemies at the time of its "final punishment".  This did not happen in 70 C.E., rather, the historian Josephus says that 20,000 Idumaeans helped the Jewish Zealots fight for independence from Rome.  

I'm not sure why you cite Ezekiel 35 as a reference to Edom giving Israel over to its enemies since the whole chapter is about God's judgment on Edom.

Eze 35:1-3  Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,  (2)  Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy against it,  (3)  And say unto it, Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, O mount Seir, I am against you, and I will stretch out my hand against you, and I will make you most desolate.

Quote from Believer's Bible Commentary on Ezekiel 35:1-15
C. The Doom of Edom (Chap. 35)
35:1-7 Mount Seir is Edom. That country is here denounced by the Lord because of its perpetual hatred of the Jews, its rejoicing when Jerusalem fell, its cruelty to the fugitives, and its plan to seize the land of Israel. Edom wanted the blessing, but they did not want the Lord. Apart from the Lord Jesus we cannot be blessed, and this still holds true today. Edom is doomed to perpetual desolation, with all trade cut off (v. 7).
35:8-15 Edom blasphemed the Jews and treated them as enemies. But the Lord still identified Himself with His people. They were under discipline, but not rejected. Edom failed to notice the difference.
As Edom rejoiced over the desolation of Israel, so the whole earth will rejoice over Edom's destruction.
God is displeased when believers secretly rejoice over the downfall of enemies of the faith. Love that is real does not feel even a quiet satisfaction when others are hurt, whether friends or foes.

[BibleReader]

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Points to Note:

•  Jeremiah 30 is written to Israel and Judah, a division that no longer exists. 

Very true.  Note, however, Ezekiel 37:15-28 which many apply to the future regarding a unification of Judah and Israel under one King, something that has not occurred yet, correct?  Thus, is it possible that both Jeremiah 30 and Ezekiel 37 are pointing to the future?  
 

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

Proclaimed in 593BC by Ezekiel during his exile in Babylon, I'm not sure why you think this passage describes Israel's "final" punishment but it certainly foretells the 586BC Fall of Jerusalem to Nebuchadnezzar and the deposing of Zedekiah the profane and wicked prince of Israel. 

Ezekiel 21:25 (ESV) uses the expression "final punishment". Which translation do you use by the way?  

3 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I'm not sure why you cite Ezekiel 35 as a reference to Edom giving Israel over to its enemies since the whole chapter is about God's judgment on Edom.

Because of what Ezekiel 35:5 clearly says:   "Because you [Edom] cherished perpetual enmity and gave over the people of Israel to the power of the sword at the time of their calamity, at the time of their final punishment." 

 

Going back to the first point you mention about Judah and Israel being a division that no longer exists.  I'm sure that you'd agree that the twelve tribes of Israel no longer exist.  Yet notice the following:  

• Matthew 19:28:  "Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."  (Will there be twelve tribes of Israel once again in the future?)
• Luke 22:30:  "That you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."  (Same question, will there be twelve tribes of Israel once again in the future?)
• Revelation 7:4-8:  "And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh, 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar, 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed."  (Will these tribes actually exist in the future, what's your opinion?)

The point of all of this:  is it possible we don't fully understand yet how prophecies concerning Israel will play out in the future?  

Edited April 12, 2021 by BibleReader

[BibleReader]

Could "Babylon the Great" be the location on earth with the highest concentration of demonic activity?  

Revelation 18:2:  "And he called out with a mighty voice, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place for demons, a haunt for every unclean spirit, a haunt for every unclean bird, a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast."  

[Justin Adams]

Babylon is the COSMIC bad place full of all who oppose God Almighty. As in heaven, so on the earth.

Edited April 12, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Michael37]

9 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Very true.  Note, however, Ezekiel 37:15-28 which many apply to the future regarding a unification of Judah and Israel under one King, something that has not occurred yet, correct?  Thus, is it possible that both Jeremiah 30 and Ezekiel 37 are pointing to the future?  

A future where there is only one good olive tree. 

The Good Olive Tree Explained

 God did not replace the Hebrew tree with a Gentile tree, He grafted us into the Hebrew tree. This is fulfillment theology, the Church is the fulfillment of all the promises Yahweh made to Israel. The root now supports two types of branches, cultivated and wild, and together they are "one" tree:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:28-29 NASB

9 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Ezekiel 21:25 (ESV) uses the expression "final punishment". Which translation do you use by the way?  

Yeah, I usually adapt from the KJV, where it is obvious the punishment of Zedekiah is in view, the day when his iniquity final comes to an end as he is deposed, his sons killed, his eyes put out, and he is led away captive.

From Wkpd

At the end of Zedekiah's eleven-year reign, Nebuchadnezzar succeeded in capturing Jerusalem. Zedekiah and his followers attempted to escape, making their way out of the city, but were captured on the plains of Jericho, and were taken to Riblah.

There, after seeing his sons put to death, his own eyes were put out, and, being loaded with chains, he was carried captive to Babylon (2 Kings 25:1–7; 2 Chronicles 36:12; Jeremiah 32:4–5; 34:2–3; 39:1–7; 52:4–11; Ezekiel 12:13), where he remained a prisoner until he died.

After the fall of Jerusalem, Nebuzaradan was sent to destroy it. The city was plundered and razed to the ground. Solomon's Temple was destroyed. Only a small number of vinedressers and husbandmen were permitted to remain in the land (Jeremiah 52:16).

10 hours ago, BibleReader said:

Because of what Ezekiel 35:5 clearly says:   "Because you [Edom] cherished perpetual enmity and gave over the people of Israel to the power of the sword at the time of their calamity, at the time of their final punishment." 

Yeah, past tense though so not actually prophesying what Edom will do at a future time but stating what Edom has done and will be punished for. Judas Maccabeus conquered their territory for a time around 163 BC.[45] They were again subdued by John Hyrcanus (c. 125 BC), who forcibly converted them, among others, to Judaism,[46] and incorporated them into the Jewish nation.[34] [Wkpd]

Quote from Matthew Henry's Commentary:

God espouses his people's cause, and will plead it, takes what is done against them as done against himself, and will reckon for it; and it is upon their account that God now contends with the Edomites.

1. Because of the enmity they had against the people of God, that was rooted in the heart. “Thou hast had a perpetual hatred to them, to the very name of an Israelite.” The Edomites kept up an hereditary malice against Israel, the same that Esau bore to Jacob, because he got the birth-right and the blessing. Esau had been reconciled to Jacob, had embraced and kissed him (Gen. 33), and we do not find that ever he quarrelled with him again. But the posterity of Esau would never be reconciled to the seed of Jacob, but hated them with a perpetual hatred.

2. Because of the injuries they had done to the people of God. They shed their blood by the force of the sword, in the time of their calamity; they did not attack them as fair and open enemies, but laid wait for them, to cut off those of them that had escaped (Oba_1:14), or they drove them back upon the sword of the pursuers, by which they fell. It was cowardly, as well as barbarous, to take advantage of their distress; and for neighbours, with whom they had lived peaceably, to smite them secretly when strangers openly invaded them. It was in the time that their iniquity had an end, when the measure of it was full and destruction came.

10 hours ago, BibleReader said:

The point of all of this:  is it possible we don't fully understand yet how prophecies concerning Israel will play out in the future?  

Yes,

1Co 13:9-12  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  (10)  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.  (11)  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.  (12)  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

10 hours ago, BibleReader said:

(Will these tribes actually exist in the future, what's your opinion?)

Yes, I believe the 12 tribes and 12 thrones and 144 thousand of Revelation are post-resurrection of the saints.