"Do you love me more than THESE?"

[Jacob Ben Avraham]

“Do you love me…more than THESE?”   John 21: 15  

 

 

     I’d like to continue with this midrash, but just to concentrate on Yeshua’s statement; “Do you love me more than these?”  

     We understand that the “sheep” and the “lambs” are symbolic of older and younger believers, not so much physical age-wise but in spiritual maturity.  Those that are young in the faith need just as much guidance as the older and more mature believers, guided by rabbis, pastors, Torah teachers, Sunday School teachers, etc…

     But what do we think about the beginning of the conversation that Yeshua had with Simon Peter?  

     “ Shimon Bar Yonas (Simon, Son of Jonas) do you love me more than these?” 

     We might ask, “Who or what are THESE?”  What could Yeshua be referring to?  Remember that Kefas (Peter) was with a few of the disciples and that they had just returned from a very good fishing trip, thanks to the Messiah Yeshua.  There they were and Yeshua had some roasted fish on the coals, plus the 153 fish they had just caught in the net.  

     Two possibilities.  Yeshua was referring to his fellow disciples.  “Kefa, do you love me more than you love your fellow fishermen here?’  or, He might have been referring to the fish;  “Kefa, do you love me more than your job as a fisherman?”   His last words were;  “Follow me!”  

     We might ask ourselves the same question.  Do we love the LORD more than our fellow man? More than our jobs and professions?  Not that we are going to abandon our wives/husbands and children to run off and start preaching somewhere,  nor are we going to just “up and quit” jobs and go and stand on the street and start preaching.  God may never ask that of you.  Your ministry might just stay where you are and be a witness at your present job, and witness to your family members, teach those who are not so mature and pray for those who are lost.

     HOWEVER…If in some way, God has directed you, through circumstances and through other people, to indeed quit your profession or job and “follow Him” into a full-time ministry, would you be willing to answer that call?  Would you be willing to leave the comfort of relatives, friends, a big home, a nice car, to go somewhere where living would not be so comfortable in order to follow HIM? To teach HIS Word to others who would be willing to hear?  Simon Kefa answered the call, and it cost him his life, as it did with all of his followers in that time period. 

     Just how much do we love God?  That would be a question only you could answer, and perhaps, only time will tell. 

Ben Avraham 

[Jaydub]

19 hours ago, Jacob Ben Avraham said:

 We might ask, “Who or what are THESE?”  What could Yeshua be referring to?  Remember that Kefas (Peter) was with a few of the disciples and that they had just returned from a very good fishing trip, thanks to the Messiah Yeshua.  There they were and Yeshua had some roasted fish on the coals, plus the 153 fish they had just caught in the net.

¹⁵ Now when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you ^[alove Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I ^[b]love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.”

Jesus asked Peter 3 times if he loved him, on the 3rd time Peter was hurt, because he knew, it was because Peter denied Jesus 3 times,  Jesus said do you love me more then these. I believe these are the disciples, because Peter said, even if they all ( these) I will not

 

 ²⁹ But Peter said to Him, “Even if they all fall away, yet I will not!” And Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you, that this very night, before a rooster crows twice, you yourself will deny Me three times.”  But ^[Peter repeatedly said insistently, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You!” And they all were saying the same thing as well.

I think the verse is a lesson for Peter. I think here he lets go of hid pride and becomes a humble servant 

 

[other one]

two different words in Greek are used in that scripture.  I'm on a trip and can't look them up, but when Jesus asked if Peter loved him he used the word that means the kind of love that God has for us and Peter used a word that basically says are we good  friends.   But the last time Jesus asked he used the friend word, so he was asking are we really even friends...   and that hurt . 

[Whyme]

37 minutes ago, other one said:

two different words in Greek are used in that scripture.  I'm on a trip and can't look them up, but when Jesus asked if Peter loved him he used the word that means the kind of love that God has for us and Peter used a word that basically says are we good  friends.   But the last time Jesus asked he used the friend word, so he was asking are we really even friends...   and that hurt . 

that word does't mean friendship, fondness might be closer. If im not mistaken. Consider  Matthew 23:6 and Matthew 6:5

 

[Whyme]

Jesus said do you love (agape) me? Peter said yes. Peter understood what agape meant, if he even used that word, they were Hebrew after all, but maybe they spoke Greek too. Either way was Peter lying? Or did he not understand what agape meant? No, he was just expressing His love, but why did Christ ask him three times? I dont know but was it because Peter was ignorant of the word love? It doesnt seem to make sense to me. But thats just my two cents.. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Whyme

[Whyme]

Actually, upon further examination the word may mean friendship or fondness. At least thats what my interlinear says. Or am i reading it wrong? I have heard that this friendship love is also brotherly love. I dont know, i dont read Greek, maybe someone else can weigh in. Im more interested in this word now. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Whyme

[Whyme]

“Philia” is the opposite of “phobia,” literally meaning that those experiencing philia are drawn to one another.

https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-does-agape-love-really-mean-in-the-bible.html

[Whyme]

This is interesting. 

 

It is important to differentiate between this agape love and the other types of love mentioned in the Bible. Phileo love means "to be a friend to" or "to be fond of" a person or object, indicating "having affection for," whereas Strong's Concordance notes that agape "is wider, embracing especially the judgment and the deliberate assent of the will as a matter of principle, duty and propriety" (emphasis ours). Similarly, philadelphia love means "fraternal affection" or "brotherly love." Agape love, though, is manifested first toward God, because it is a dutiful, submissive, obedient love, one that does what is right regardless of how a person feels about it. In other words, agape love has a moral core rather than an emotional one.

The Bible shows that, in general, we show agape love to the Father through our obedience and submission, especially to His law (John 14:15-23; 15:10; I John 2:5; 5:2-3; II John 6). We show agape love to each other through sacrifice, just as Jesus' example of love—to those around Him and to us—was through sacrifice (John 13:34; 15:12-13; Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:13; Ephesians 5:2, 25; I John 3:16, 18; 4:9-12).

The meaning of Matthew 24:12, then, is that agape love will grow cold because of lawlessness, even though there may still be brotherly love, kindness, and human affection. Remember, we show agape love to God through obedience—the opposite of lawlessness—so when disobedience increases, agape grows cold. An example of this appears in the letter to the Ephesians, where Jesus says that they had left their first love—their first agape—and He commands them to repent (Revelation 2:4-5), that is, to turn away from their lawlessness. When there is compromise, or the setting aside of God's standard of righteousness and holiness, then the submissive love toward God and the sacrificial love toward man will begin to grow cold. It is a simple cause-and-effect relationship.

 

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/CGG/ID/239/Phileo.htm

[Whyme]

 I actually remember the day as a college freshman when I was given the (supposed) secret Greek key to unlocking Jesus’ famous conversation with Peter in that passage. Jesus asks three times, “Do you love me?” Peter replies each time: “Yes, I love you.” I was told that, hidden underneath the surface of the weak, imprecise English word “love” were two different Greek words: agapao (ἀγαπάω) and phileo (φιλέω). I was further told that these two Greek words pointed to two vastly different kinds of love, the one selfless and non-emotional and the other merely emotional and friend-ish. Peter, so the interpretation goes, twice couldn’t bring himself to say he loved Jesus selflessly and unconditionally, so Jesus asked him, in effect, “Do you even love me like a friend?”

This very common interpretation sounds so rich at first glance that I could wish it were accurate. But it runs afoul of the Bible study guidelines I laid out earlier, because it relies heavily on alleged Greek word meanings instead of a contextually sensitive reading of the entire passage in its context. Bible students who interpret the passage the way my teacher did that day can’t point to anything in English translations to back them up. The fact is that the Bible never says anywhere that real love, ideal love, is non-emotional. In Jesus’ conversation with Peter he appears to be varying agapao and phileo for purposes of style, not meaning.

https://blog.logos.com/how-to-pronounce-logos-and-what-agape-really-means/