Guest kingdombrat Posted May 11, 2021 Share Posted May 11, 2021 And we can also use Ancient War examples. Read what Alexander the Great did and would continue doing from his Father till his own death. The Jews were just slaughtered. No long term suffering that is [always] associated to real true Tribulations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kingdombrat Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Josheb said: You've just named "several". Why are more needed? Seriously. What's going on here? If several can be named then why ask? Is there some unstated dispute between your thinking, what you've posted, and what I have posted? State it! Or accept the facts already in evidence..... change your thinking, change your doctrine(s), and change your practice accordingly. Isn't that how conversation is supposed to work? The loss of goodness and sinless in Eden The entrance of sin into the world The famines Forty years of wandering to the point of death Chronic disobedience and covenant-breaking Recurring idolatry The weak Judges The weak monarchies The divided kingdom The many judgments of God The inter-testamental period The desolation of Israel's house The destruction of Jerusalem and Judaism's religious institutions Seriously, why was this necessary? Because I do not believe the 70 A.D. Destruction comes anywhere near the Tribulation suffered being enslaved for 400 years or Noah's Flood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kingdombrat Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Josheb said: Hmmm...... you need to read a little history because those statements are just wrong. The temple wasn't actually completed until 64 AD. Did you know that? Soon after the temple was completed the Zealots began to increase their violence both toward old-line Judaism and Imperial Rome. The Zealots took over the city in 66 and Rome soon responded. Rome surrounded the city with its own soldiers and conscripts from every nation it had conquered but when you read the scripture think Jerusalem, not Rome. Persecution of the early Christians began with Jerusalem, not Rome. Rome was not the only city built on seven hills. If the man of lawlessness is measured by God's law (the Law) then he's a Jew, not a Roman, nor a Catholic . The Zealots were similar to our modern-day jihadists. They killed anyone and everyone who disagreed with them, including the priests and they sacrificed humans in the temple. It was a bloody mess. Literally. When the Romes acted it took four months to conquer the city and the war wasn't finished until 73 AD. 64-73AD That's seven years. Look it up. Look it up. The adjust thought, doctrine, and practice accordingly. We're also getting far afield of the salient point: presuppositionally, once we acknowledge God as sovereignly omni-attributed everything in scripture has context that transcends ordinary creature-centric history. Don't digress (please ). I've read Josephus' account and do agree the Jews would have thought this was horrific. But Rome did the same thing to everyone they attacked and conquered. Christ said the Tribulation would [be like nothing before or after]. Jerusalem 70 A.D. is the exact copy of what Greece did, Rome did, the Turks did, Babylon did, Persia did. It ain't that special at all! It surely is not different than anything else to set it apart from all other War scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kingdombrat Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Josheb said: If these are supposed to be references to the "worse than ever" comments of Jesus you're failing. It's worse than ever from God's perspective, not ours. Again I remind you: read scripture from a God-centric pov, not a human-centric view. Nothing was worse from God's point of view than those claiming to be His people usurping His authority and acting as God and Judge and sacrificing humans in His house. Matthew 23:32-38 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!" Is the significance of God leaving their house desolate understood........ from the perspective of what scripture has to say about desolation? Matthew 24:1-2 "Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. And He said to them, 'Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.'" And it was. Right after they finished building it! So what? Jesus said it would be UNLIKE any Tribulation before or after. Jerusalem is a copy of how a hundred Ancient kingdoms would conquer. A million Jews ain't nothing, when before this Event Genghis Khan killed 15 [FIFTEEN MILLION] in his 5 year war with Central Asia. To put that into proper [perspective], 15 million deaths in 5 years equals 250,000 people died per MONTH! Come at me again with a real tragic stat because 1 millions Jews compared to 15 million is only a [good start]. It sure ain't no Tribulation like ever BEFORE or AFTER! Edited May 12, 2021 by kingdombrat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted May 12, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,641 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,373 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2021 8 hours ago, kingdombrat said: Because I do not believe the 70 A.D. Destruction comes anywhere near the Tribulation suffered being enslaved for 400 years or Noah's Flood. Yes. and not only that... Jesus said: "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." This means it would have to be worse than the flood of Noah's day which is worse than any action resulting in death and destruction we have ever seen. This would outstrip 70 AD, Masada, the Khans, 700 years of Islamic brutality, the purges of Lenin and Stalin, Mao's starvation of his people, the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the killing fields and on and on...combined! To liken 70 AD with great tribulation is dogma and nothing more. It's not sound analysis of scripture but based on half a dozen logical fallacies, ignorance, wishful thinking, hope, twisting fact and outright deception. Beware the one who decries the use of illogical arguments then engages in those same points of illogic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted May 12, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 194 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.48 Reputation: 9,018 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Diaste said: Yes. and not only that... Jesus said: "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." This means it would have to be worse than the flood of Noah's day which is worse than any action resulting in death and destruction we have ever seen. This would outstrip 70 AD, Masada, the Khans, 700 years of Islamic brutality, the purges of Lenin and Stalin, Mao's starvation of his people, the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the killing fields and on and on...combined! To liken 70 AD with great tribulation is dogma and nothing more. It's not sound analysis of scripture but based on half a dozen logical fallacies, ignorance, wishful thinking, hope, twisting fact and outright deception. Beware the one who decries the use of illogical arguments then engages in those same points of illogic. OK--I get what you are laying down, but let's follow your logical argument as it stands in your dynamic. How many were left alive at the flood event? 8 souls? That means that all other humans and critters perished. Does the tribulation that you envision to come in the future exceed that in some way? I'm curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kingdombrat Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 11 hours ago, Josheb said: I have already addressed that matter. I do not know why already-posted content is repeated as if it wasn't addressed and I do not know why a cogent response isn't provided. I Know what you believe. What you can prove? As this conversation unfolds I read increasing appeals to personal beliefs and less to scripture.... and an increasing departure from the presuppositions with which we supposedly had agreement (God is sovereign...., etc.). I will keep steering the conversation back to the basics, the foundation, the core truths as scripture itself has asserted them. Why? Because any eschatology that comes into conflict with the core truths of scripture is a bad eschatology. God flooded the planet because every thought of man was only evil all the time. That's bad. None of them were as bad as building a lawless temple and having a lawless man sit in the bema seat and act as God judging others in blood-lust human sacrifices. It was worse! No one in Noah's day is reported to have done anything that depraved. Matthew 12:30-32 "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God." No one in the entire history of the Bible did what the Zealots did. No one in the history of humanity has done so, either. Not even Hitler. Hitler sacrificed humans but he did not do so as God in mockery of all that God commanded. Proverbs 6:16-19 "There are six things which the LORD hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." Every single one of those hateful actions can and will be forgiven. Not so the blasphemy. A guy who does all six of those things and blasphemes the Holy Spirit? Like something no one has ever seen or will ever see again. Measure God's word first by God's word. The mention of the flood is curious for two other reasons. First, within months following the flood a son sodomized his drunken father. Didn't take long for sin to rear its ugly head in depravity. Second, Jesus tells us the eschatology will be like the days of Noah where one will be taken away and another will remain. Some read that as a reference to a rapture wherein Christians are taken off the planet to be with Jesus in the sky. The problem with that interpretation is this: in the days of Noah the ones who were taken away were the ones destroyed by the flood waters and those who remained, eight in all, were the ones who went on to live - and live in a God-initiated covenant. 1 Peter 3:18-20 "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water." Any eschatology that teaches differently is a bad eschatology. Peter tells us the flood was brought upon the world of the ungodly (not the godly). What else does Peter tell us about the flood? 1 Peter 3:21-22 "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him." Any eschatology that teaches different isn't just a bad eschatology; it is also a bad soteriology. Core concepts. God is sovereign and omni-attributed. Concepts like "war" and "binding" occur only within the fact of God's omni-attributes. Any eschatology that teaches anything otherwise is a bad eschatology. And it does not take a rocket scientist to think through scripture to realize 1) the logical necessities of God being God and 2) bad eschatology if we just start with the core, foundational truths of God and His word. It is NOT about us. Think Theo-centrically, not human-centrically. Polycarp did . Bottom line, the Destruction of Jerusalem [is not] any different than what was already seen on Earth before/after. Jesus is specific it will be [unlike] anything ever witnessed. 70 A.D. is the same scene as every other Rome/Greece/Mongolian ware and the only difference about 70 A.D. vs the rest [LESS PEOPLE 1 MILLION DIED]! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kingdombrat Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 11 hours ago, Josheb said: Not interested in personal opinions and speculations. Look at what has happened in this op from my pov. Go back to the op and compare that post to your last one. How did you get from the op to that last post? Is the problem therein seen? The actual contents of my posts is not being engaged. There's a difference of opinion but none of it has proven a single word I've posted incorrect. The facts of scripture and the facts of history are as I have posted. And I am completely open to having any of it disproved but I don't read that happening. What I do read is a problematic appeal to Polycarp that has ended up with a personal disdain for Josephus. If that's the case being presented then so be it, but I do not find it valid or veracious. Not a personal opinion, you are [IGNORING TRUE HISTORICAL FACTS FOR YOUR OWN DOCTRINE]! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kingdombrat Posted May 12, 2021 Share Posted May 12, 2021 4 hours ago, Diaste said: Yes. and not only that... Jesus said: "For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again." This means it would have to be worse than the flood of Noah's day which is worse than any action resulting in death and destruction we have ever seen. This would outstrip 70 AD, Masada, the Khans, 700 years of Islamic brutality, the purges of Lenin and Stalin, Mao's starvation of his people, the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the killing fields and on and on...combined! To liken 70 AD with great tribulation is dogma and nothing more. It's not sound analysis of scripture but based on half a dozen logical fallacies, ignorance, wishful thinking, hope, twisting fact and outright deception. Beware the one who decries the use of illogical arguments then engages in those same points of illogic. AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Adams Posted May 12, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 25 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 9,606 Content Per Day: 3.94 Reputation: 7,798 Days Won: 21 Joined: 09/11/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted May 12, 2021 1 minute ago, kingdombrat said: Not a personal opinion, you are [IGNORING TRUE HISTORICAL FACTS FOR YOUR OWN DOCTRINE]! Josh is quite correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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