The size of New Jerusalem

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So the parable is about Jesus and the Church and that is polygamy? NOT. And by the way, they were still under Jewish law, now go reread the laws and see if men were allowed to marry more than one woman, I mean Abraham did, Jacob married Rachel and Leah, honestly, do you think these things through or just grasp at straws trying to maintain a position brother?

Shalom, "Revelation Man."

You leap before you look. This parable is NOT about "Jesus and the Church!" Don't put the cart before the horse! FIRST, one must prove that this parable IS about "Jesus and the Church" before one can come to the conclusion about this parable that you form.

See, you just interpret EVERYTHING about "Jesus and the Church," and that makes your conclusions invalid. It's like little kids in Sunday School answering "JESUS!" to every question they're asked! Right or wrong, that's what they think is the answer expected!

Parables are analogies made to stress a SINGLE POINT being emphasized! 

For instance, when Yeshua` told the parable of the leaven in Matthew 13, He was not speaking about "sin!" He said - POINT BLANK - that "the Kingdom of heaven is like leaven!" Don't make the mistake that is all too common of saying that the "leaven" in this parable is "a type of sin!" Since when is the "Kingdom of heaven" "a type of sin?!"

No, the point of that parable was to show the INFLUENCE of the Kingdom of heaven upon the world into which it is kneeded. Furthermore, there's no significance to the "three measures of wheat" other than to show it was a LOT of wheat-flour dough!

In the same way, this parable about the 10 virgins was to say "BE READY!" Don't be "partially ready," or "nearly ready," or "all ready except for ....." He's emphasizing "to be COMPLETELY READY!"

It's not really about who the 10 virgins represent, nor is it about whether the 5 foolish virgins were saved or not! Look at it again:

Matthew 25:1-13 (KJV)

1 "Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made,

"'Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him!'

7 "Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise,

"'Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out!'

9 "But the wise answered, saying, 

"'Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.'

10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying,

"'Lord, Lord, open to us!'

12 "But he answered and said,

"'Verily I say unto you, I know you not.'

13 Watch (Greek: Greegoreite = "you-[plural]-be-awake/watchful/on-the-alert/vigilant") therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh!

Verse 13 was His point to all of this parable! Yes, the bridegroom represented the "Son of man," but all we know is that the virgins represented wise and foolish people for whom He was giving the Olivet Discourse! Some would be completely ready, "taking oil in their vessels with their lamps" with them. Others would NOT be completely ready, bringing their lamps but forgetting the fuel!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, the fact is you are playing lose with the facts, the parable is about Jesus and you know it, and Jesus will marry the Church (The COMPLETE CHURCH) so the 10 Virgins are His Bride (US), the Church. 

No, see this is the part that you're making up! While the parable is about Yeshua`, the Son of man, we do NOT know from this parable that "Jesus will marry the Church (The COMPLETE CHURCH)" nor that "the 10 Virgins are His Bride (US), the Church!" You like to THINK that's what this parable is about, but you don't get this from the parable!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Again, this is you tryin' to be cute because I have destroyed you argument, to marry more than one doesn't require a divorce, but then again you know that, but then again, as I stated above, the Parable is about Jesus marrying his Church, thus 10 stands for the WHOLE COMPLETE Church.......AND YOU KNOW THIS.....Sad really that you can't even admit this fact, brother.

No, sir! I'm not "tryin' to be cute"; I'm giving you Yeshua`s own words, and YOU choose to belittle them! He said ONE MAN, ONE WOMAN! Why do you think polygamy was outlawed in the U.S.A? It was because, no matter what denomination the founding fathers claimed, they ALL believed in keeping the Bible and Yeshua`s teachings FIRST in the structure of the new nation they were building!

Again, you're taking liberties with Yeshua`s parable when you say it "is about Jesus marrying His Church!" You have no justification for making that statement! Thus, your statement, "10 stands for the WHOLE COMPLETE Church," which hinges upon those liberties you're taking, is also unfounded!

What's REALLY sad is that I don't believe you even KNOW you're doing this to the Scriptures! I HOPE I'm getting through, but I doubt it.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

You spend way too much time quoting scriptures, but not showing how it backs up your opinions, because it never does.

Actually, I LOVE quoting Scriptures; that others don't READ those Scriptures is on THEM! They back up my "opinions" quite well because I START with the Scriptures FIRST to FORM my "opinions!" All one has to do to see that is to READ the Scriptures I quote! Many people are too lazy to read the Scriptures on this forum! I HOPE that doesn't apply to you!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Anyone can paste a scripture, I have seen David Koresh and the like do that for years; understanding that scripture and how it all ties together is what really matters. 

They post incomplete Scriptures - a word here, a phrase there - to make it SOUND like they're "spiritual," but they don't get their messages FROM the Scriptures.

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The "NOT REALLY" is telling, yes, you know its REALLY HOW I STATED IT. All the laws can be fulfilled by just those 2 thus those 10 are a STAND IN for all the laws. All this because you can't see the obvious. 

If YOU choose to ignore ALL of God's commandments, that's on YOU! Fortunately, Yeshua` knew and kept them all, so all of your sins can be propitiated by the Sacrifice Yeshua` made on the cross. It's just that too many Gentile believers have NO IDEA how many commandments of God they have broken! They have NO CONCEPT of what was required of the children of Israel! They weren't under the "Schoolmaster" of the Law; so, they didn't get that teaching! They're lucky they even know that they're sinners at all!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I study the Greek and Hebrew in depth. Thus you do not even get that what you posted above proves MY POINT, it goes right in the eyes but never registers with you. You will have Tribulation  10 DAYS.........Be faithful unto DEATH and I will give you the CROWN of Life. 

Do you really? GOOD! Then you know that this is "ton stefanon tees zooees - the laurel-wreath of the life," right? So, is that a literal crown or is it a metaphor?

I rather like the way the NIV puts it:

Revelation 2:10 (NIV)

10 "Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown."

So, this is a metaphor for the Resurrection!

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon (Rev. 3:21 THRONE to the Church who OVERCCOMES) the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment;(Rev. 3:5 White Robes/Raiment) and they had on their heads crowns of gold(Rev. 2:10).

Oops. No gold in Revelation 2:10. In Revelation 4:4, these are the 24 elders crowned with LITERAL, golden, victor's wreaths! I've always believed that there are 24 elders, 12 being leaders from the 12 tribes of Israel (perhaps the twelve sons themselves of Ya`aqoV) and 12 being the apostles. Elders, after all, literally means "older ones."

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, Jesus is speaking about 10 days (Complete Church Age IMHO, and FACTUAL) and then ties it in with the Promises to the Churches that OVERCOME and then shows them IN HEAVEN in the same verse, and you do not understand its the Complete Church Age. God thinks bigger it seems than you can contemplate.

Well, you were taught partly right, but 7 is Divine Completion, the number 10 is Completion, the number 12 is Fullness etc. 

 

Look. Whether you want to call it numerology, gemetria, or Caballah (Qabaalaah), it's all the same. It's putting more value on the numbers than the value you put on YHWH God and His Son! Tell me, since this was a literal town in Asia Minor, John had been there before, and this sub-letter was addressed right to them, then WHY isn't this talking about that particular congregation? Why aren't these 10 LITERAL days? What's wrong with that? 

2 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That's on you if you argued with someone about 7 toes. Just because you found a kook and argued about an irrelevant point, that has ZERO bearing on God's use of numbers; if you think you can actually win an argument against me by raising red herrings, LOL, then you are sadly mistaken, sir. 

You will see when we get to Heaven, brother, you are stuck in the mud on these old ideas about God. Its evident you were not called to Eschatology; so, I guess I shouldn't even be debating eschatology with one who can't see it as I do. It is my own fault for thinkin' you could understand this, of course a lot of people not called can be taught, but like the Pharisees, Jesus says some people are just too attracted to "Men's Tradition" i. e. old ideas.

I find it VERY ironic that the Hebrew word "Qabaalaah," from which comes numerology and gemetria, means "Tradition!"

Kab·ba·lah| kəˈbälə, ˈkabələ | 

(also Kabbala, Cabala, Cabbala, or Qabalah) 

noun 

the ancient Jewish tradition of mystical interpretation of the Bible, first transmitted orally and using esoteric methods (including ciphers). It reached the height of its influence in the later Middle Ages and remains significant in Hasidism. 

ORIGIN 

from medieval Latin cabala, cabbala, from Rabbinical Hebrew qabbālāh ‘tradition’, from qibbēl ‘receive, accept’.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not going to "heaven"; I'm going THROUGH the heavens to the Middle East, both to help with the war for His Land, and receive my marching orders as to where He wants me to reign with Him. It may be a while before we're actually reigning somewhere, because, first, there are more experienced people who have reigned before who will have the knowledge and wisdom to reign. Second, we have to learn what He expects from us wherever He puts us. Third, until He has annexed some other countries, particularly those who speak English, I would probably not be much help.

What people call "Heaven" is actually the New Jerusalem. The descriptions people expect for "Heaven" are actually the descriptions of the New Jerusalem, but the New Jerusalem doesn't descend to the earth, until the earth is made anew!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, to all.

Now, if we can get back on track, the footprint is pretty close to the "square" projected on the map that @Uriah posted on page 3.

However, we need to understand two things:

First, this is the NEW Earth, which will be after the Fire, the Great White Throne Judgment, and the Second Death.

Second, there was "no more sea." I believe that is a direct reference to the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf, as well as the Dead Sea, and the Sea of Galilee. Of course, the connecting rivers, such as the Nile, the Jordan, the Euphrates, and the Tigris Rivers will also be gone.

So, the current landmarks and cities will not be there.

The reason why the earth passed by and away was to CLEAR the LAND for the descent of the New Jerusalem. God also blew away the works of men! The sky, too, was blown away to minimize the friction in the landing!

This city is SO HUGE, that the ONLY actual way to see the whole landing of this COLOSSAL CITY is to view it from a "great and high mountain" several thousand miles away, such as Mount Everest! This is why we read:

Revelation 21:10 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit (on the wind) to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, ...

Even there, the city's landing area won't be visible due to the curvature of the earth!

To disperse the gates evenly, assuming a side of x length, the first gate would be x/6 from the corner and then next gate would be at x/2 (halfway down the side of the city), and the final gate on that side of the city would be x/3 from there or 5x/6 from the original corner (x/6 distance to the second corner).

This would be true for all four sides of the city.

Thus, all of the gates would be separated from the closest gates to that gate at x/3 distance. So, if x = 1,379.8687 (1,380) miles in length, then x/3 = approximately 460 miles apart, from the center of one gate to the center of the next gate, even around the corners. The gates closest to the corners would be 230 miles away from that corner!

So, it would look like ...

(corner) 230 mi (gate) 460 mi (gate) 460 mi (gate) 230 mi (corner)

... on each of the four sides of the city.

As to their order, since the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are enscribed upon these gates, then they MAY be arranged in the same order as described in the Millennial City, possibly a scale model of the New Jerusalem, found in Ezekiel 48:

Ezekiel 48:30-35 (KJV)

30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures. 31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben (R), one gate of Judah (Ju), one gate of Levi (L). 32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph (Jo), one gate of Benjamin (B), one gate of Dan (D). 33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon (S), one gate of Issachar (I), one gate of Zebulun (Z). 34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad (G), one gate of Asher (A), one gate of Naphtali (N). 35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there (Hebrew: YHWH-Shaamaah).

          R         Ju       L
    +--+----+----+--+
    |                                  |
N +                                 + Jo
    |                                  |
A +                                 + B
    |                                  |
G +                                 + D
    |                                  |
    +--+----+----+--+
          Z         I          S

It's a much smaller city, because it fits in 4500 measures x 4500 measures (with a perimeter of 18,000 measures), which also fits between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, but it might be PROPORTIONATE TO the New Jerusalem.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Retrobyter
to correct a spelling

[Retrobyter]

On 12/27/2021 at 9:31 PM, Uriah said:

I found that the scriptures never say it WILL come down ONTO the Earth. Yet they DO say that it comes OUT OF heaven from God, and then God will dwell with men, and His throne will be in New Jerusalem.

Shalom, Uriah.

I wanted to assure you that the Scriptures DO say it will come down onto the New Earth. Let me show you how:

First, be aware that the word "heaven" in Scripture does not mean "Heaven" as is currently defined as "God's abode." The Greek word in the Scriptures that was translated as "heaven" is "ouranos." This is the word that our Savior used for the "sky" in Matthew 16:1-4:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red.' 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red and lowring.' O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

Here's the actual Greek of these four verses:

Kata Maththaion 16:1-4

1 Καὶ προσελθόντες οἱ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ Σαδδουκαῖοι πειράζοντες ἐπηρώτησαν αὐτὸν σημεῖον ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ἐπιδεῖξαι αὐτοῖς. 2 Ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς

“Ὀψίας γενομένης λέγετε ‘Εὐδία, πυρράζει γὰρ ὁ οὐρανός·’ 3 καὶ πρωΐ ‘Σήμερον χειμών, πυρράζει γὰρ στυγνάζων ὁ οὐρανός.’ Ὑποκριταί, τὸ μὲν πρόσωπον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ γινώσκετε διακρίνειν, τὰ δὲ σημεῖα τῶν καιρῶν οὐ δύνασθε; 4 γενεὰ πονηρὰ καὶ μοιχαλὶς σημεῖον ἐπιζητεῖ, καὶ σημεῖον οὐ δοθήσεται αὐτῇ εἰ μὴ τὸ σημεῖον Ἰωνᾶ.”

καὶ καταλιπὼν αὐτοὺς ἀπῆλθεν.

Note that in all four occurrences of the word "ouranos" (two in the genitive case, "ouranou"), NONE were about "God's abode!" The Pharisees and Sadducees had asked for a "sign from the sky," and He said, "Sure! 'Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!'"

SO, when we read in Revelation 21:1-4,

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven (Greek: ouranon kainon = "a-sky new") and a new earth: for the first heaven (Greek: ho gar prootos ouranos = "the <-> for first sky") and the first earth were passed away (Greek: ; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou = "coming-down out of-the sky away-from the God"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou = "out of-the sky," although some versions say ek tou thronou = "out of-the throne") saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men (Greek: Idou hee skeenee tou Theou meta toon anthroopoon = "Behold the tent of-the God with the men"), and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

The word "ouranos" is still talking about the "SKY!"

Now, second, when little kids use crayons to make a picture, they will put a blue sky at the top of the page and green grass at the bottom of the page with a big white area in between. They don't understand the concept of the horizon nor the fact that the sky MEETS the earth all around the observer, not only at the horizon, but EVERYWHERE! The air TOUCHES the ground. The "SKY" TOUCHES the "earth." The "ouranos" TOUCHES the "gee." 

SO, when the Scriptures say, the New Jerusalem comes "OUT OF THE SKY," there's nowhere to go BUT on the ground!

Also, there are SEVERAL clues within the text of Revelation 21 that lead to the conclusion that the City will LAND upon the New Earth.

Third, the city is said to "LIE foursquare":

Revelation 21:16 (KJV)

16 And the city lieth foursquare (Greek: Kai hee polis tetragoonos keitai = "And the city four-angled lies"), and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Fourth, we're told that the city has "foundations," the Greek word "themelioi." The singular is "themelios":

Revelation 21:19 (KJV)

19 And the foundations (Greek: hoi themelioi = "the footings") of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

While I believe that foundations 2 through 12 are actually "foundational LEVELS" of the city, the first foundation, at least, should be sunk into the bedrock.

This is the city for which Avraham was looking!

Hebrews 11:8-10 (KJV)

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations (Greek: themelioi = "footings"), whose builder and maker is God!

Roughly two millennia before the Messiah was born, he EXPECTED the New Jerusalem!

I often wondered where the author of Hebrews got his information. I could never find such a place in the whole book of Genesis or in 1 Chronicles where it said that "Abraham looked for a city that had foundations!" Finally, in studying Genesis 15, I believe that I stumbled upon the secret:

The Hebrew word for "foundation" is "'eden," not to be confused with " `Eeden," the Garden of God. "'Eden" is spelled "alef-dalet-nun," while "`Eeden" is spelled "`ayin-dalet-nun."

134 'eden (eh'-den). From the same as 'adown (in the sense of strength); a basis (of a building, a column, etc.)
-- foundation, socket.

Notice that this word comes from ...

113 'adown (aw-done'). Or (shortened) 'adon {aw-done'} (also spelled "alef-dalet-nun"); from an unused root (meaning to rule); sovereign, i.e. Controller (human or divine)
-- lord, master, owner. Compare also names beginning with "Adoni-".

The relationship that this word has with 'eden means that this word could also mean "a foundation-builder" or "one who lays a foundation." We have another word that stems from 'adown:

136 'Adonay (ad-o-noy). An emphatic form of 'adown; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only)
-- (my) Lord.

To add the Hebrew letter yod at the end of a word adds the personal possessive suffix to the word, making it "MY-Lord." That's PRECISELY what #136 'Adonay does!

As one can see from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Genesis 15:2 and 8 are the first two occurrences of this word:

Genesis 15:2-8ff (KJV)

2 And Abram said,

"Lord (Hebrew: 'Adonay = emphatic "my-Lord") GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?"

3 And Abram said,

"Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir!"

4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying,

"This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir!"

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said,

"Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them":

and he said unto him,

"So shall thy seed be!"

6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. 7And he said unto him,

"I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it."

8 And he said,

"Lord (Hebrew: 'Adonay = emphatic "my-Lord") GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?"

And God proceeded to make the unconditional covenant with Avram.

So, when Avram called God His "Adonay," "My-foundation-builder," the author of Hebrews was led by the Spirit to say what he said in Hebrews 11.

That's just four of the eleven reasons I have for saying that the New Jerusalem will indeed LAND upon the New Earth. As you can see, they can be just a little involved. 😁

On 12/27/2021 at 9:31 PM, Uriah said:

A friend of mine made the pic below for me using some of artistic license, showing God's workmanship by maintaining the spiral pattern seen in everything he has made whether microscopic or in the scale of the cosmos.

It remains above Earth from where fire will come down from God after the millennium to destroy those attacking His people.

Years ago someone calculated that, depending on the spacing between the vertical levels inside, there could be enough surface area to equal 89 planet Earths! We won't feel boxed in.

 

While I appreciate the professional quality of the diagram, I have to ask: Where's the city of gold? All you've got here are foundations!

I'm assuming that this object as drawn doesn't land upon the earth and must therefore exist in space, probably orbiting the earth, but then how does the city stay stationary to a particular location upon the earth? How can the gates be arranged "On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates"? Any object in orbit has three axes upon which it could tumble. The logistics of keeping the whole, HUGE city properly aligned would be colossal!

I should also mention that objects in orbit don't "hover." They are constantly falling toward the earth. The reason why they don't fall to the earth is because of the speed at which they are falling. They are moving so fast, that by the time they have fallen to a lower point, the earth has already curved away from that point. Thus, to tweek a quote of Lou Costello of the Abbott and Costello comedy team, it keeps "throwing itself to the ground, and misses it every time!"

Looks to me like you have gates coming from the corners! That's a technical problem. Why do the gates "protrude inwards and meet at the center" anyway?

Why is there a dome on top? Ezekiel 1:22 is NOT talking about the New Jerusalem! That crystal dome is also going to change the height of the city!

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The word "ouranos" is still talking about the "SKY!"

That same word is used quite a bit elsewhere, not meaning "sky". The city must originate from somewhere beyond the sky ("from God"). What we see after a thousand years fire "came down from God out of heaven". Thus, it is NOT from a ground based location. God will be on His throne which will be in New Jerusalem.

Geostationary satellites in fact DO remain over a location below, but it doesn't concern me if so or not. 

The dome corresponds the description in Ezekiel over the living creatures and the throne. There is a rainbow around God's throne. When this seen on Earth (a fully circular rainbow) it involves the curvature of the atmosphere-dome.

Also it has been said before that all of Israel and at least parts of surrounding countries would be crushed by the city landing on the ground. I have even read that because of the curvature of the Earth, approx., excavation to a depth of 70 miles would be required so that the corners would be at ground level. 

The spiral shape (as seen in all of God's creation) and gates attached to four foundations of pearl are as stated: artistic interpretations. 

 

[Spiros]

How to understand New Jerusalem. There are in essence three “cities”.

 

The first city is the point of reference. It defines the size and the methodology of the New Jerusalem cube. This first city is simply Jerusalem in Palestine/Israel.

 

The second city is the great city of the lamb in Greece. It is defined through code. It is the city of “the husband”.

 

The third city is the true New Jerusalem since It is the city of “the bride”. It resides also in Greece.

 

 Revelation 21.2

Quote

Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

There a number of heavenly geodetic alignments that relate to the third city. This is one example. We stand on the first city (city 1) at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem, Palestine. We then target the tallest mountain on Earth, mount Everest. We draw a great circle dividing the Earth in two equal pieces, this is the way to define the distance(curve) and also direction (bearing) to mount Everest. If the Earth was flat then a bearing of 0 degrees would signify the Northern direction, a bearing of 180 degrees would signify the Southern direction and a bearing of 90 degrees would signify a true Eastern direction. Now if we station ourselves at Greece at “city 3”, New Jerusalem, then we would notice that the azimuth – bearing toward mount Everest is EXACTLY the same as that computed from Jerusalem. Then there is another thing that defines this place, it name. If we compute the isopsephy value of it’s name it equals that of the phrase “New Jerusalem”. How is this possible? Does God what this name to be known? You decide. It relates isopsephy wise to the name of Ukraine! Let’s step back and take a look at the arithmetical properties of Ukraine in Greek OYKRANIA(ΟΥΚΡΑΝΙΑ).

 

ΟΥΚΡΑΝΙΑ = 70+400+20+100+1+50+10+1 = 652

 

Base 12 system:

 

6 x (12 x 12) + 5 x (12) + 2 = 926

 

ΙΕΡΟΣΟΛΥΜΑ(Ierosolyma: Jerusalem) = 10+5+100+70+200+70+30+400+40+1 = 926

 

Nazareth:

 

ΝΑΖΑΡΕΤ = 50+1+7+1+100+5+300 = 464

 

Base 12 system:

 

4 x (12 x 12) + 6 x (12) + 4 = 652

 

Base 16 hexadecimal:

 

652

6 x (16 x 16) + 5 x (16) + 2 = 1618

 

ΙΕΧΩΒΑΣ(Jehovah) = 10+5+600+800+2+1+200 = 1618

 

Base 8 octal system:

 

6 x (8 x 8) + 5 x (8) + 2 = 426

 

ΣΠΕΡΜΑ(sperma: seed, sperm, race, offspring) = 200+80+5+100+40+1 = 426

ΑΜΠΕΛΟΣ(ampelos: vine) = 1+40+80+5+30+70+200 = 426

 

 

ΜΗΤΡΟΓΟΝΙΑ(metrogonia: meter(mother)+gonos(offspring)) = 40+8+300+100+70 + 3+70+50+10+1 = 652

 

maternal offspring: the city of “the bride”

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

That same word is used quite a bit elsewhere, not meaning "sky".

Shabbat shalom, Uriah.

I challenge you to show me one instance. I will show you how the same verse can use the word as the "sky."

Paul had a DIFFERENT word that he used in 1 Corinthians 15. It's the word that combines the word for "above" with "ouranos." The word is "epouranios."

2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os). From epi and ouranos; above the sky
-- celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

1909 epi (ep-ee'). A primary preposition; properly, meaning superimposition (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution (with the genitive case), i.e. Over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc.
-- about (the times), above, after, against, among, as long as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, (where-))fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-)on (behalf of), over, (by, for) the space of, through(-out), (un-)to(-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

Here's an example of how he used it:

1 Corinthians 15:39-41 (KJV)

39 All flesh is not the same flesh (Greek: Ou pasa sarx hee autee sarx = "Not all flesh [is] the same flesh"): but there is ...

one kind of flesh of men (Greek: anthroopoon = "men" plural),
another flesh of beasts (Greek: kteenoon = "animals" plural),
another of fishes (Greek: pteenoon = "birds" plural), 
and another of birds (Greek: ichthuoon = "fish" plural).

40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = bodies of-above-the-sky),
and bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = bodies of-upon-the-earth):

but the glory of the celestial (Greek: hee toon epouranioon doxa = "the the ab0ve-the-sky glory/brightness) is one,
and the glory of the terrestrial (Greek: hee toon epigeioon = "the the above/upon-the-earth") is another. 

41 There is one glory of the sun (Greek: allee doxa heeliou = "one glory/brightness of-sun"),
and another glory of the moon (Greek: allee doxa seleenees = "another glory/brightness of-moon"),
and another glory of the stars (Greek: allee doxa asteroon = "another glory/brightness of-stars"):
for one star differeth from another star in glory (Greek: asteer gar asteros diaferei en doxee = "a-star for from-a-star differs in glory/brightness").

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

The city must originate from somewhere beyond the sky ("from God").

You're RIGHT! But, one can go back to Hebrews 12:22 to find that:

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ierousaleem epouranioo = "But ye-are-approaching Zion mountain and city of-God living, Jerusalem of-above-the-sky"), and to an innumerable company of angels, ...

It IS a city from above-the-sky, i.e., SPACE!

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

What we see after a thousand years fire "came down from God out of heaven". Thus, it is NOT from a ground based location. God will be on His throne which will be in New Jerusalem.

Right, but remember two things:

1) God is OMNIPRESENT; that is, He is PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME!
2) Yeshua` IS NOT omnipresent; He gave up that attribute when the Word was made flesh! That's why He could say He "went away to the Father" and "would return again!"

God is "on the throne," presumably in the New Jerusalem, but Yeshua` shall be reigning as God the Father's Representative - His Maashiyach or Messiah or Christ - His Anointed One - upon the earth! Yeshua` will be reigning from Jerusalem during the Millennium.

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Geostationary satellites in fact DO remain over a location below, but it doesn't concern me if so or not. 

Yes, I'm aware of geosynchronous orbits. The height and speed of the satellite must match the rotational speed of the earth, and it will SIMULATE "hovering" over a location below. It's still actively falling constantly, but it is now in sync with the rotation of the earth. If the orbit were to decay, it would probably hit that location or fall slightly short of it, being slowed in the friction of the atmosphere.

However, the moving satellite must still be maintained or it will tumble in one of the axes, either the x-axis, the y-axis, or the z-axis, or a combination of the three!

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

The dome corresponds to the description in Ezekiel over the living creatures and the throne. There is a rainbow around God's throne. When this seen on Earth (a fully circular rainbow) it involves the curvature of the atmosphere-dome.

Yes, but the dome suggests something much smaller. Just enough to cover the four living creatures and the throne area. Why would it need to extend the whole distance of the city?

This is one of the advantages of the pyramid shape for the New Jerusalem. The four walls diminish to a single point, the CAPSTONE, in which the Throne would be found, with its full GREEN (EMERALD) rainbow, and any blue dome that might also be present, over the Throne. I also believe that since the One seated upon the Throne was said to be ...

Revelation 4:3 (KJV)

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

And, both the jasper (bloodstone) and the sardine stone (carnelian) are dusky red in color. So, since the One sitting upon the Throne is the SOURCE of the light for the city, then it would stand to reason that He is a BRIGHT red color, and the rainbow, "being in sight like unto an emerald," may be due to an AFTERIMAGE!

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Also it has been said before that all of Israel and at least parts of surrounding countries would be crushed by the city landing on the ground. I have even read that because of the curvature of the Earth, approx., excavation to a depth of 70 miles would be required so that the corners would be at ground level.

Right, but that's the beauty of making a NEW earth! Besides, all the works of men - even cities and towns - are swept away. (2 Peter 3:10.)

To make a "FLAT" surface for the bottom of the city, an excavation would be necessary, from the edges and corners into the center of the city. HOWEVER, to APPEAR flat to the earth's surface (with which we are usually familiar), the city will be CONFORMED to the curvature of the earth!

From the earth's surface, a "flat" bottom to the cube (or pyramid) would appear to bulge downward far below the earth's surface in the middle of the city. But, if the city were actually covering a "flat area" on the surface of the earth, it would not bulge downward at all, but remain flat over the curvature of the earth.

From a distance as it is landing, it would appear to have a CONCAVE bottom that fits nicely upon the earth's surface.

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

The spiral shape (as seen in all of God's creation) and gates attached to four foundations of pearl are as stated: artistic interpretations. 

Okay, but I've got a better answer for the gates of pearl. Consider:

We read all this about the gates:

Revelation 21:10-13 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory (brightness) of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Then, later, we read,

Revelation 21:21-27 (KJV)

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

So, let's list the facts:

There are twelve gates.
There are three gates on each of the four sides of the city.
The four sides of the city are aligned with north and are labeled, a north side, an east side, a south side, and a west side.
The twelve gates are twelve pearls.
Each separate gate was made of one pearl.
The brightness of God will light the city.
The Lamb is the torch of the city; that is, He is the "lightbulb," as it were, the SOURCE from which God's brightness shines.
So, the city has no need for the sun or the moon to shine in it.
The gates of the city shall not be shut at all by day.
BUT, there also shall be no night there, because the Lamb is ALWAYS it's light!
Let's add a fact here from Malachi 4:2:
The Sun of righteousness shall arise with healing in his wings. I believe this is talking about the Messiah of God, calling Him the "SUN of righteousness."
The kings of the earth shall bring their glory and honor into the city.
They shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into the city.
And, no way shall anyone defiling, working abomination, or making a lie shall enter into the city.
Only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life shall enter into the city.

So, we seem to have a seemingly contradictory set of facts:

Why would there be gates, each one made of one pearl, if they always stand open as long as it's not night, and there's no night there because the Sun of Righteousness has arisen? What good are they? Gates that never close and always stand open?

Well, a hint might be in order at this point. Round objects, like pearls, ROLL!

Now, consider this: Each gate is enscribed with one of the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and each gate is attended by a messenger (an "aggelos" or an "angel"). If each one of the twelve gate-pearls is ROLLED AWAY from the gate opening, and an angel attends the gate, doesn't that sound familiar?

Matthew 28:1-7 (KJV)

1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. 2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men. 5 And the angel answered and said unto the women,

"Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. 6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you."

I believe that each of the twelve gates COMMEMORATES THE RESURRECTION OF OUR LORD!

Notice this, too: 

Revelation 21:10-12 (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Then, we read,

Revelation 21:18-20 (KJV)

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper (the bloodstone): and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper (the bloodstone - red); the second, sapphire (dark blue); the third, a chalcedony (gray-blue); the fourth, an emerald (bright green); 20The fifth, sardonyx (mottled reddish-brown and white); the sixth, sardius (carnelian - dark red); the seventh, chrysolite ("gold stone" - yellow); the eighth, beryl (gray); the ninth, a topaz (light-yellow); the tenth, a chrysoprasus (apple-green); the eleventh, a jacinth (Greek: huakinthos = "hyacinth light-blue"); the twelfth, an amethyst (royal purple).

So, the walls were of jasper - the bloodstone - as was the first foundation. It it's a pyramid shape where the four walls come together to a point, then there's NO WAY into the city except through the BLOOD of the bloodstone! And, the only ways in are commemorating the Resurrection! That's something to think about, isn't it?

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Retrobyter
to fix a few things

[Retrobyter]

11 hours ago, Spiros said:

How to understand New Jerusalem. There are in essence three “cities”.

 

 

The first city is the point of reference. It defines the size and the methodology of the New Jerusalem cube. This first city is simply Jerusalem in Palestine/Israel.

 

 

The second city is the great city of the lamb in Greece. It is defined through code. It is the city of “the husband”.

 

 

The third city is the true New Jerusalem since It is the city of “the bride”. It resides also in Greece.

 

 

 Revelation 21.2

 

 

There a number of heavenly geodetic alignments that relate to the third city. This is one example. We stand on the first city (city 1) at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher of Jerusalem, Palestine. We then target the tallest mountain on Earth, mount Everest. We draw a great circle dividing the Earth in two equal pieces, this is the way to define the distance(curve) and also direction (bearing) to mount Everest. If the Earth was flat then a bearing of 0 degrees would signify the Northern direction, a bearing of 180 degrees would signify the Southern direction and a bearing of 90 degrees would signify a true Eastern direction. Now if we station ourselves at Greece at “city 3”, New Jerusalem, then we would notice that the azimuth – bearing toward mount Everest is EXACTLY the same as that computed from Jerusalem. Then there is another thing that defines this place, it name. If we compute the isopsephy value of it’s name it equals that of the phrase “New Jerusalem”. How is this possible? Does God what this name to be known? You decide. It relates isopsephy wise to the name of Ukraine! Let’s step back and take a look at the arithmetical properties of Ukraine in Greek OYKRANIA(ΟΥΚΡΑΝΙΑ).

 

 

 

ΟΥΚΡΑΝΙΑ = 70+400+20+100+1+50+10+1 = 652

 

 

 

Base 12 system:

 

 

6 x (12 x 12) + 5 x (12) + 2 = 926

 

 

ΙΕΡΟΣΟΛΥΜΑ(Ierosolyma: Jerusalem) = 10+5+100+70+200+70+30+400+40+1 = 926

 

 

 

Nazareth:

 

 

ΝΑΖΑΡΕΤ = 50+1+7+1+100+5+300 = 464

 

 

 

Base 12 system:

 

 

4 x (12 x 12) + 6 x (12) + 4 = 652

 

 

 

Base 16 hexadecimal:

 

 

652

6 x (16 x 16) + 5 x (16) + 2 = 1618

 

 

ΙΕΧΩΒΑΣ(Jehovah) = 10+5+600+800+2+1+200 = 1618

 

 

 

Base 8 octal system:

 

 

6 x (8 x 8) + 5 x (8) + 2 = 426

 

 

ΣΠΕΡΜΑ(sperma: seed, sperm, race, offspring) = 200+80+5+100+40+1 = 426

ΑΜΠΕΛΟΣ(ampelos: vine) = 1+40+80+5+30+70+200 = 426

 

 

 

ΜΗΤΡΟΓΟΝΙΑ(metrogonia: meter(mother)+gonos(offspring)) = 40+8+300+100+70 + 3+70+50+10+1 = 652

 

 

maternal offspring: the city of “the bride”

Shalom, Spiros.

You're reaching, my friend, STRETCHING the limits of what can be considered "the truth."

There's a REASON why my handle is "Retrobyter!" "Retro-" stands for "old school." "Byter" is "one who works with bytes!" I am an "old-school, computer programmer!"

I know all about binary, octal and hexadecimal. But, why are you resorting to these numbering systems? What's the point? Just because two different numbering systems give the same sequence of numbers DOESN'T MEAN A THING! The two "equal-looking" numbers are in two different numbering systems! Therefore, despite how they look, they are NOT THE SAME NUMBERS!

[Uriah]

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I challenge you to show me one instance. I will show you how the same verse can use the word as the "sky."

2Ccor 12:2- "third heaven" I assume you are familiar.

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

1) God is OMNIPRESENT; that is, He is PRESENT EVERYWHERE AT THE SAME TIME!
2) Yeshua` IS NOT omnipresent; He gave up that attribute when the Word was made flesh! That's why He could say He "went away to the Father" and "would return again!"

God is "on the throne," presumably in the New Jerusalem, but Yeshua` shall be reigning as God the Father's Representative - His Maashiyach or Messiah or Christ - His Anointed One - upon the earth! Yeshua` will be reigning from Jerusalem during the Millennium.

Rev 21:1- And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:1-3- And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

However, the moving satellite must still be maintained or it will tumble

Consider the moon. A satellite that is not falling.

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

the city will be CONFORMED to the curvature of the earth!

That would change the description of the dimensions listed in scripture.

13 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Well, a hint might be in order at this point. Round objects, like pearls, ROLL!

No rolling there. rev 21:25- And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Angels guard all entrances.

 

 

[Spiros]

15 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Spiros.

You're reaching, my friend, STRETCHING the limits of what can be considered "the truth."

There's a REASON why my handle is "Retrobyter!" "Retro-" stands for "old school." "Byter" is "one who works with bytes!" I am an "old-school, computer programmer!"

I know all about binary, octal and hexadecimal. But, why are you resorting to these numbering systems? What's the point? Just because two different numbering systems give the same sequence of numbers DOESN'T MEAN A THING! The two "equal-looking" numbers are in two different numbering systems! Therefore, despite how they look, they are NOT THE SAME NUMBERS!

Hello Retrobyter,

 

In computers people are trained to use number systems like the decadic, the binary, the hexadecimal, and the octal. They thus use numbers 10, 2, 16, 8. But they usually don’t use the 12 number system. But New Jerusalem being 12,000 stadiums in size is based on  the 12 number system. Therefore what does one notice when using the 12 number system?

 

The 6,5,2 digits relate to both Jerusalem(9,2,6) and Nazareth(4,6,4). This way it refers to the whole life of Jesus starting from  the Annunciation to the Blessed Virgin Mary at Nazareth and ending at the Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension of Jesus Christ at Jerusalem.

 

In Revelation, the size of New Jerusalem in Palestine as 12,000 stadions is defined. So if New Jerusalem is in Greece(Hellas), what is it’s size? Isopsephy relates this number to the King of the Jews and The Second Coming.

 

ΔΕΥΤΕΡΑ ΠΑΡΟΥΣΙΑ(Deutera Parousia: Second Coming)  = (4+5+400+300+5+100+1)+(80+1+100+70+400+200+10+1) = 1677

 

ΔΕΚΑ ΕΠΤΑ ΧΙΛΙΑΔΕΣ ΔΙΑΚΟΣΙΑ ΕΝΔΕΚΑ (Deca Epta Hiliades Diakosia Endeka: seventeen thousand two hundred and eleven) = (4+5+20+1) + (5+80+300+1) + (600+10+30+10+1+4+5+200) + (4+10+1+20+70+200+10+1) + (5+50+4+5+20+1) = 1677

 

ΒΑΣΙΛΕΥΣ ΙΟΥΔΑΙΩΝ(Basileus Ioudaion: King of the Jews) = (2+1+200+10+30+5+400+200) + (10+70+400+4+1+10+800+50) = 2193

 

ΔΕΚΑ ΕΠΤΑ ΧΙΛΙΑΔΕΣ ΔΙΑΚΟΣΙΑ ΕΝΔΕΚΑ ΣΤΑΔΙΑ(Deca Epta Hiliades Diakosia Endeka Stadia: seventeen thousand two hundred and eleven furlongs) = (4+5+20+1) + (5+80+300+1) + (600+10+30+10+1+4+5+200) + (4+10+1+20+70+200+10+1) + (5+50+4+5+20+1) + (200+300+1+4+10+1) = 2193

 

This is the size of the “New” New Jerusalem cube in Greece.  A square with a side length of 17,211 units has a half diagonal of roughly 12,170 units.

 

New Nazareth = 12,693 stadions (Annunciation)

New Jerusalem = 12,000 stadions (Resurrection, Ascension, Pentecost)

New Bethlehem = 11,945 stadions (Christmas)

New Bethabara = 12,042 stadions (Theophany)

======================================

Average = 12,170 stadions

 

Best Regards

Spiros

[Retrobyter]

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

2Ccor 12:2- "third heaven" I assume you are familiar.

Shalom, Uriah.

Yep. I'm familiar. HOWEVER, what does almost EVERYONE assume from the words "third heaven?" They ALL assume that the "third heaven" exists AT THE SAME TIME as the "second heaven" and the "first heaven!" This may take a while to set up; please bear with me and read the whole argument, please:

FIRST POINT, notice the wording:

2 Corinthians 12:1-6 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

Here's the same passage in the Greek:

Pros Korinthious B 12:1-6

1 Καυχᾶσθαι δὴ οὐ συμφέρει μοι· ἐλεύσομαι γὰρ εἰς ὀπτασίας καὶ ἀποκαλύψεις Κυρίου. 2 οἶδα ἄνθρωπον ἐν Χριστῷ πρὸ ἐτῶν δεκατεσσάρων εἴτε ἐν σώματι οὐκ οἶδα· εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος οὐκ οἶδα, ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν, ἁρπαγέντα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἕως τρίτου οὐρανοῦ. 3 καὶ οἶδα τὸν τοιοῦτον ἄνθρωπον εἴτε ἐν σώματι, εἴτε ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος, οὐκ οἶδα· ὁ Θεὸς οἶδεν 4 ὅτι ἡρπάγη εἰς τὸν παράδεισον, καὶ ἤκουσεν ἄρρητα ῥήματα, ἃ οὐκ ἐξὸν ἀνθρώπῳ λαλῆσαι. 5 ὑπὲρ τοῦ τοιούτου καυχήσομαι· ὑπὲρ δὲ ἐμαυτοῦ οὐ καυχήσομαι, εἰ μὴ ἐν ταῖς ἀσθενείαις μου. 6 ἐὰν γὰρ θελήσω καυχήσασθαι, οὐκ ἔσομαι ἄφρων· ἀλήθειαν γὰρ ἐρῶ· φείδομαι δέ, μή τις εἰς ἐμὲ λογίσηται ὑπὲρ ὃ βλέπει με, ἢ ἀκούει τι ἐξ ἐμοῦ.

Transliterated, this becomes...

Pros Korinthious B 12:1-6

1 Kauchasthai dee ou sumferei moi; eleusomai gar eis optasias kai apokalupseis Kuriou. 2 oida anthroopon en Christoo pro etoon dekatessaroon eite en soomati ouk oida; eite ektos tou soomatos ouk oida, ho Theos oiden, harpagenta ton toiouton heoos tritou ouranou. 3 kai oida ton toiouton anthroopon eite en soomati, eite ektos tou soomatos, ouk oida; ho Theos oiden 4 hoti heerpagee eis ton paradeison, kai eekousen arreeta hreemata, ha ouk exon anthroopoo laleesai. 5 huper tou toioutou kaucheesomai; huper de emautou ou kaucheesomai, ei mee en tais astheneiais mou. 6 ean gar theleesoo kaucheesasthai, ouk esomai afroon; aleetheian gar eroo; feidomai de, mee tis eis eme logiseetai huper ho blepei me, ee akouei ti ex emou.

Here's the Greek word from which was written as "harpagenta" and "heerpagee":

726 harpazoo (har-pad'-zo). From a derivative of haireomai; to seize (in various applications)
-- catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

138 haireomai (hahee-reh'-om-ahee) the middle voice of haireoo. Probably akin to airoo; to take for oneself, i.e. To prefer
-- choose. Some of the forms are borrowed from a cognate hellomai hel'-lom-ahee; which is otherwise obsolete.

One of the biggest problems with this passage is that the word "UP" isn't really there! TWICE the word "harpazoo" is used, and the word means "I seize!"

So, in the case of "harpagenta," the aorist, participle, passive used of the accusative, masculine, singular form of the word, it means "he having been seized."

In the case of "heerpagee," the aorist, indicative, passive used of the third-person, singular form of the word, it means "he was seized."

It doesn't mean "snatched UP!" The translator took liberties simply because of the word "heaven," meaning the "sky,"  being "up!" While that may seem logical, it is misleading!

Here's the passage again with these substitutions:

2 Corinthians 12:1-6 (KJV)

1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one he having been seized to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 4 How that he was seized into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

SECOND POINT

The word "third" ("tritos") is an ORDINAL number as opposed to a cardinal number. It shows ORDER. Now, that COULD be in space, spatial, but it could also be in TIME, chronological! Most of the time in Scripture, it shows TIME: "third day," "third hour," "third season," "third year," etc. The "three days," by which one could be identified as the "third day," are not NEXT to each other physically, all existing at the same time; they FOLLOW one another in time!

Whoever first came up with the words found in the Scofield Reference Bible, King James Version, did the world a disservice:

On page 1238, "someone" stated in the center column: "1st heaven = of clouds, 2nd = of stars, 3rd = God's abode." I'm assuming it was Rev. C. I. Scofield, but he may not have been the originator of the phrase; he may have only copied it into his reference Bible.

Peter also talked about three "heavens":

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

5 For this they WILLINGLY are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in allholy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1st heavens were before the Flood
Then, the Flood occurred
2nd heavens which are now, are scheduled to go through the Fire
Then, the Fire will occur, right before the Great White Throne Judgment (See Revelation 20:8.)
3rd heavens will come after the Fire "wherein dwelleth righteousness."

Remember how our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah of God used the Greek word "ouranos" in Matthew 16:1-4? "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning"? The plural word "ouranoi" is simply "skies." Peter may have used the Aramaic or the Hebrew word instead of the Greek, and the Hebrew word "shaamayim" (or the Aramaic word "shaamayin") is a PLURAL (actually, a DUAL) word! So, when translated into Greek, it became the plural word "ouranoi."

THIRD POINT

What kind of person was Paul describing here? He was talking about a "person" (maybe himself), who was shown visions of things by God. He was shown Paradise and some things of which he was not allowed to reveal!

He was saying what he was afraid to admit; "I'm a PROPHET of God!" It was a thing that one could EASILY boast about! So, he was having a hard time admitting it to himself, let alone telling others about it! And, he had been living with this for FOURTEEN YEARS!

In any case, what does God usually show a prophet of God? Well, in most cases, he is shown visions of the FUTURE! Paul was seeing what John and Peter had seen and wrote about - the FUTURE!

John told us where Paradise was! First, he wrote what Yeshua` had told him to write in his letter to the messenger of the church at Ephesus:

Revelation 2:7-21 (KJV)

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of THE TREE OF LIFE, WHICH IS IN THE MIDST OF THE PARADISE OF GOD.

Then, later, he revealed,

Revelation 21:10, (KJV)

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me THAT GREAT CITY, THE HOLY JERUSALEM, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and THE GATES THEREOF, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and THE STREET OF THE CITY was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

Then later, he added:

Revelation 22:1-2 (KJV)

1 And he shewed me A PURE RIVER OF WATER OF LIFE, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 IN THE MIDST OF THE STREET OF IT, AND ON EITHER SIDE OF THE RIVER, was there THE TREE OF LIFE, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So, the city had gates, the gates led to the streets, the streets had the river of the water of life flowing in its median, and on either side of the river was growing the tree of life as a species of tree! Thus, the city had parks of trees throughout, all containing the "tree of life!" And, John had said that the tree of life was in the "midst (or middle) of the Paradise of God!"

Do you remember what the word "paradise" means?

"Paradise" itself is a TRANSLITERATION, an English word formed from the Greek word "παράδεισος" (or "paradeisos," another transliteration of the word), where "π" is written as "p," "α" is written as "a,""ρ" is written as "r," "ά" is written as "a," "δ" is written as "d," and "εισ," which is pronounced as "ice" is written as "ise." The "-ος" masculine ending is dropped for English.

The word "paradeisos" is itself a transliteration of the Hebrew word "פַרְדֵּס," "pardeec," pronounced "par-DACE." Here are the entries in Strong's dictionaries:

3857 παράδεισος (paradeisos) (par-ad'-i-sos). Of Oriental origin (compare pardeec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise")
-- paradise.

6508 פַרְדֵּס (pardeec) (par-dace'). Of foreign origin; a park
-- forest, orchard.

19 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 21:1- And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Rev 22:1-3- And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Consider the moon. A satellite that is not falling.

That would change the description of the dimensions listed in scripture.

No rolling there. rev 21:25- And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Angels guard all entrances.

Assume the gates are closed for the trip from space into the earth's atmosphere. THEN, the gates are opened and stay open! I can picture that the gates are VACUUM-SEALED until the atmosphere inside the city is released into the vacuum areas and pop the gates out into their tracks. Then, they are rolled away from the gate openings to remain open forever!

Of course this is conjecture, but it is closer than pearly tubes! And, how are the nations of the world going to get their riches into the city? Do they have to FLY them up there with some sort of space transport? No, it's just easier to have roads that go to the gates of the city!

The key is the WATER! The river of the water of life flows from the Throne of God and of the Lamb and is dispersed to all areas of the city by simple GRAVITY, flowing down the middle of the streets within the city! When it comes to the gates, where's it going to go? OUT ONTO THE NEW EARTH! "No more seas," at first, but PLENTY OF RIVERS and the earth will FLOURISH!