Theological Problems with God-guided Evolution

[Michael37]

2 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I think I understand what you're saying.  Evening then Morning give you a 12 hour day?  A 24 hour day would be midnight to midnight or evening to evening.

Yes, as you will know the speed of the earth's rotation determines the duration between one evening and the next at any given line of longitude on one side of the earth in tandem with it being morning on the other side.

The other planets rotate at different speeds, and have lesser or greater orbital distances around the sun so we can compare the earth's specifications with these and conclude that we indeed are in what scientists call "the Goldilocks Zone," neither too close nor too far from the sun, and subject to 4 seasons by reason of the earth's tilted axis.

[JohnR7]

On 12/10/2021 at 7:32 PM, AandW_Rootbeer said:

1In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.

2Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.

 

Tanakh

Jeremiah 4:23
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

[JohnR7]

On 12/10/2021 at 8:20 PM, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I can't find an acceptable English translation of the Bible that uses the word .  Are you using whatever you can Google for translation?  Is this more smoke and mirrors on your part?  So whatever you post regarding the Old Testament should we assume you're using the Tanakh?

That is the chabad.org translation. "astonishing" is a very fair translation for the word "WAS" because the word contains two HAY letters. In English HAY is represented by the letter E. It's symbolic meaning is a person with his head and hands in the air trying to get attention. This word Hayah is a verb. Don't ask me about verbs, I got a C in English in college. 

I have studied the chabad teaching on youtube but not enough to go into further detail to explain the Hebrew letters and what they mean. Jeremiah changes the  Hebrew word  הָיְתָ֥ה to אֵ֥ת. This means beheld. So Moses states this as an astonishing fact and Jeremiah says he actually beheld or saw this event take place. Of course Jeremiah does not add anything to what Moses tells us. He just explains it better. Only Jesus can add to what God gave to Moses in the Torah. God presented all of His plan to Moses. 

The letter HAY is used a lot in Genesis 1:2. God is really calling attention to what HE is doing. He wants us to take notice. 

Everything in the Bible in addition to what we receive from Moses or Jesus is commentary to help us understand what Moses and Jesus is teaching us. So Jeremiah is helping us to understand what Moses is teaching us in Genesis 1:2. 

[Alive]

10 hours ago, AandW_Rootbeer said:

Wow, Really?

 

I disagree with your views and you claim it is fighting?

 

You should not be debating if your ego is so fragile that when someone disagrees with your point of view you call that fighting.

This is a direct violation of the TOS and unacceptable on Worthy Forums.

[The Barbarian]

16 hours ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

Evening and morning, in that order.  I don't know the reason why evening and morning make a day.

You're right.  Technically, the day starts at evening in Hebrew understanding.

 

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, JohnR7 said:

That is the chabad.org translation. "astonishing" is a very fair translation for the word "WAS" because the word contains two HAY letters. In English HAY is represented by the letter E. It's symbolic meaning is a person with his head and hands in the air trying to get attention. This word Hayah is a verb. Don't ask me about verbs, I got a C in English in college. 

I have studied the chabad teaching on youtube but not enough to go into further detail to explain the Hebrew letters and what they mean. Jeremiah changes the  Hebrew word  הָיְתָ֥ה to אֵ֥ת. This means beheld. So Moses states this as an astonishing fact and Jeremiah says he actually beheld or saw this event take place. Of course Jeremiah does not add anything to what Moses tells us. He just explains it better. Only Jesus can add to what God gave to Moses in the Torah. God presented all of His plan to Moses. 

The letter HAY is used a lot in Genesis 1:2. God is really calling attention to what HE is doing. He wants us to take notice. 

Everything in the Bible in addition to what we receive from Moses or Jesus is commentary to help us understand what Moses and Jesus is teaching us. So Jeremiah is helping us to understand what Moses is teaching us in Genesis 1:2. 

Thank you for your post and the detailed source citing you provide.

Quote

Genesis 1:2

Gen 1:2 [Samaritan]
והארץ היתה תהו ובהו וחשך על פני תהום ורוח אלהים מרחפת על פני המים׃
And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:2 [Masoretic]
וְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ וְחֹשֶׁךְ עַל־פְּנֵי תְהֹום וְרוּחַ אֱלֹהִים מְרַחֶפֶת עַל־פְּנֵי הַמָּֽיִם׃
And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:2 [Targum Onkelos]
וְאַרְעָא הֲוָת צָדְיָא וְריקַנְיָא וַחֲשוֹכָא פָרִישׁ עַל אַפֵי תְהוֹמָא וְרוּחָא מִן קָדָם יְיָ מְנַשְׁבָא עַל אַפֵי מַיָא׃
And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the abyss, and the Spirit from before Y^eY^a blew upon the face of the waters.

* waste and empty or desolate and empty

Gen 1:2 [Samaritan Targum]
וארעה הות שאמה וריקנה וחשכה על אפי תהומה וריח אלהה מנשבה על אפי מיה:
And the earth was waste and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the abyss, and the Spirit of Elaha blew upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:2 [Peshitta]
ܘܐܪܥܐ ܗܘܬ ܬܘܗ ܘܒܘܗܿ܂ ܘܚܫܘܟܐ ܥܠ ܐ̈ܦܝ ܬܗܘܡܐ܂ ܘܪܘܚܗ ܕܐܠܗܐ ܡܪܚܦܐ ‍‍ ܥܠ ܐ̈ܦܝ ܡ̈ܝܐ܀
And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Alaha moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:2 [Septuagint]
ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου· καὶ πνεῦμα Θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω τοῦ ὕδατος.
And the earth was invisible and unconstructed, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.

Gen 1:2 [Aquila of Sinope]
η δε γη ην κενωμα και ουθεν. και σκοτος επι προσωπον αβυσσου, και πνευμα Θεου επιφερομενον επι προσωπον υδατων.

Gen 1:2 [Symmachus]
η δε γη εγενετο αργον και αδιακριτον. … και πνευμα Θεου επιφερομενον επι προσωπον υδατων.

Gen 1:2 [Theodotion]
η δε γη ην κενον (s. ουθεν) και ουθεν. και σκοτος επι προσωπον αβυσσου, και πνευμα Θεου επιφερομενον επι προσωπου υδατος.

Gen 1:2 [Old Latin]
Terra autem erat invisibilis et incomposita, et tenebrae erant super abyssum : et Spiritus Dei superferebatur super aquam.
And the earth was invisible and shapeless, and darkness was upon the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the waters.

Gen 1:2 [Vulgate]
Terra autem erat inanis et vacua et tenebrae super faciem abyssi et Spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas.
And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the waters.

Source: Tanakh Source Translations

So in effect, you are equating Genesis 1:2 with Jeremiah 4:23, which I alluded to before on this or another thread having the same language.  At that time, someone insisted the that Jeremiah 4:23 was indicating a future event.  I don't remember who it was anymore, but you pointing out the language comparison between the two passages is something we both can agree on.

I don't see the value of inserting "astonishing" in the text.  Of course the work was astonishing.  Everything God does is astonishing.

[to be continued]

[Guest]

@JohnR7  To continue, if you are using:

(Genesis 1:1) In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.  [chabad Translation]

(Genesis 1:2) Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.  [chabad Translation]

Quote

In the beginning of God’s creation of: Heb. בְּרֵאשִית בָּרָא. This verse calls for a midrashic interpretation [because according to its simple interpretation, the vowelization of the word בָּרָא, should be different, as Rashi explains further]. It teaches us that the sequence of the Creation as written is impossible, as is written immediately below] as our Rabbis stated (Letters of R. Akiva, letter “beth” ; Gen. Rabbah 1:6; Lev. Rabbah 36:4): [God created the world] for the sake of the Torah, which is called (Prov. 8:22): “the beginning of His way,” and for the sake of Israel, who are called (Jer. 2:3) “the first of His grain.” But if you wish to explain it according to its simple meaning, explain it thus: “At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness…and God said, ‘Let there be light.’” But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the Creation, to say that these came first, for if it came to teach this, it should have written:“At first (בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה) He created the heavens and the earth,” for there is no רֵאשִׁית in Scripture that is not connected to the following word, [i.e., in the construct state] like (ibid. 27:1):“In the beginning of (בְּרֵאשִית) the reign of Jehoiakim” ; (below 10:10)“the beginning of (רֵאשִׁית) his reign” ; (Deut. 18:4)“the first (רֵאשִׁית) of your corn.” Here too, you say בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אלֹהִים, like בְּרֵאשִׁית בְּרֹא, in the beginning of creating. And similar to this is,“At the beginning of the Lord’s speaking (דִּבֶּר) to Hosea,” (Hos. 1:2), i.e., at the beginning of the speaking (דִּבּוּרוֹ) of the Holy One, Blessed be He, to Hosea, “the Lord said to Hosea, etc.” Now if you say that it came to teach that these (i.e., heaven and earth) were created first, and that its meaning is: In the beginning of all, He created these-and that there are elliptical verses that omit one word, like (Job 3:10): “For [He] did not shut the doors of my [mother’s] womb,” and it does not explain who it was who shut [the womb]; and like (Isa. 8:4): “he will carry off the wealth of Damascus,” and it does not explain who will carry it off; and like (Amos 6:12): “or will one plow with cattle,” and it does not explain: “if a man will plow with cattle” ; and like (Isa. 46: 10): “telling the end from the beginning,” and it does not explain that [it means] telling the end of a matter from the beginning of a matter-if so, [if you say that Scripture indicates the order of creation] be astounded at yourself, for the water preceded, as it is written: “and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water,” and Scripture did not yet disclose when the creation of water took place! From this you learn that the water preceded the earth. Moreover, the heavens were created from fire and water. Perforce, you must admit that Scripture did not teach us anything about the sequence of the earlier and the later [acts of creation].  [midrashic commentary]

So in effect, the midrash seems to be saying you cannot use Genesis to determine the order in which God created the Heavens and Earth.  So this would be a blow to YEC who demand everything in order.  Another acceptable way of looking at this would be that a heaven (1 of 3 according to Paul) is in existence already with the Earth (planet) from a prior creation.  I would have no problem that as a Gap theorist.  Leaves room for the fall of angels and judgement upon them as mentioned in Jude.  In the beginning would just indicate God's plan for our salvation.  How does this effect God-guided Evolution?  There doesn't seem to be enough time before the beginning.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, The Barbarian said:

You're right.  Technically, the day starts at evening in Hebrew understanding.

I wonder why God inspired Moses to record it in that manner?

[teddyv]

43 minutes ago, Saved.One.by.Grace said:

I wonder why God inspired Moses to record it in that manner?

Maybe because they used a lunar calendar?

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, teddyv said:

Maybe because they used a lunar calendar?

There would still be missing hours between days.  I guess it doesn't matter, but I find it interesting.