Theological Problems with God-guided Evolution

[one.opinion]

A recent thread on quote-mining Darwin was getting off track, so hopefully, this new thread will keep the other from being derailed. I'm going to share a few things up-front before asking for feedback.

*  I am a follower of Christ and my allegiance is to Him only. I accept evolution (as a tool in God's hands), but I don't owe anything to evolution.

*  I accept the inerrancy of Scripture. I will not agree 100% of the time with 100% of my brothers and sisters in Christ on exactly what a Biblical passage means, or how it should be read. However, that does NOT mean that I only believe certain parts of the Bible or that I am calling God a liar.

*  I grew up in a family where I was taught Young Earth Creation. However, as a Biology major as an undergraduate and through the process of earning a PhD degree in a molecular virology lab, I became convinced that there was too much evidence supporting evolution to be ignored.

*  Additionally, I discovered time and again that I was taught poorly regarding "facts" pertaining to evolution or a young earth.

*  I have taught Genetics, Cellular and Molecular Biology, Molecular Biology, and several other topics related to evolution (which is a molecular process at its root) for over 20 years, so I have a pretty decent grasp of the molecular details. However, my intention with this thread is not to discuss scientific evidence for/against evolution/YEC, there are plenty of other threads here.

*  I would like to use this thread to demonstrate how a follower of Christ can, in good faith, still accept the biological process of evolution.

So, without further ado, these are the major theological points that I gather from Genesis 1-3.

1. God is creator of ALL things. I believe that the original audience for these chapters was a group of people that had just escaped 400 years immersed in a culture teeming with false gods. This was an important reminder for them.

2. God made humans special - in His likeness. We possess something that is unique among living creatures. This is quite likely something more than just bigger brains and the ability to talk. I believe our Imago Dei is spiritual, not physical.

3. Humans tragically chose their own way, rather than following God's specific instructions. This not only affected Adam and Eve (which I believe to be real people, and not just literary archetypes), but the rest of humanity. We are doomed to sin and its consequences.

4. God promised a way of deliverance. This was not spelled out in detail in Genesis 3, but it foretold of the coming Messiah.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is His choice to take on human form and limitations, lead a perfect and sinless life, die in order to overcome the power of sin and death, and come back to life to offer a new, spiritual life to all those that would receive Him.

This Gospel is not predicated on what we believe about the age of the earth. That topic is of much lower importance.

So having now given this introduction, let's talk! I'll be very happy to discuss any objections, but do hope we can keep the conversation calm and considerate.

[Michael37]

43 minutes ago, one.opinion said:

I am a follower of Christ and my allegiance is to Him only. I accept evolution (as a tool in God's hands), but I don't owe anything to evolution.

This is a well worn topic on Worthy, one.opinion. 

The existing threads have the usual division between the Theistic Evolution camp and those who believe TE is incompatible with Scripture, particularly Romans 5 & 1 Corinthians 15.

From My Notes:

THEISTIC EVOLUTION REFUTED

 

Evolutionism and the attempt to reconcile it with the Bible is what is known as Theistic Evolution, which maintains God designed the environment and primordial microbes to evolve into all forms of life over millions of years of mutations and death, resulting eventually in the creation of humankind. 
The Bible shows that there was no death prior to the disobedience of Adam, so Theistic Evolution is incompatible with the Bible.
God saw that all His Creation was good. Death, both physical and spiritual is God's enemy, so not part of Creation pre-fall when God saw that everything was good. The first animal to die was the one God killed to provide coverings for Adam and Eve, a prefiguring of the physical death of Christ to redeem His People and His Creation from the curse of death.
Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
The theistic evolutionist is as gullible as Eve, believing the Devil's lie.
Quotes from Internet Correspondent Shiloh 357: 
“Theistic Evolution is self-contradicting.  It is like Atheistic Christianity.   Theistic Evolution requires death before Adam's fall in the Garden and many theistic evolutionists argue that Adam and Eve were not the first people; just the first people to have a relationship with God.” 
“Theistic Evolutionists have to modify the problem of man being created from the dust of the earth. This is a problem for them because it means that Adam was not the product of Evolution, but a direct and special creation of God.    So even then, a theistic evolution cannot be internally consistent without modifying the Bible to reconcile the problem.  Even then the reconciliation is purely imaginary.”  
“In an evolutionary mindset, sin doesn't exist.  And if sin doesn't exist, if it can be explained away in the naturalism of the theory of Evolution, it has a devastating impact on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”
Theistic Evolutionists propose millions of years of random mutations and physical death prior to the arrival of human beings, and then claim only spiritual death is the punishment and curse for sin. The Bible dispels this notion, with death being a curse and an enemy which Christ's sacrificial atoning death and victorious resurrection delivers His followers from rather than a by-product of a developmental process to finally establish human life.

Rom 5:12  Therefore as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin; so death passed to all men, because all sinned.
Rom 8:18-23 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.  (19)  For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.  (20)  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;  (21)  because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.  (22)  For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.  (23)  Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
1Co 15:52-54 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  (53)  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  (54)  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In my opinion, one.opinion, Theistic Evolutionists simply aren't and cannot be considered Bible-believers.

[one.opinion]

1 hour ago, one.opinion said:

I'll be very happy to discuss any objections, but do hope we can keep the conversation calm and considerate.

 

7 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

This is a well worn topic on Worthy, one.opinion. 

Could we at least begin without hostility?

[one.opinion]

9 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

In my opinion, one.opinion, Theistic Evolutionists simply aren't and cannot be considered Bible-believers.

Oh, I guess not.

[teddyv]

I will of course agree with @one.opinion on many of these points. I find the early chapters fascinating within the context of answering the basic human worldview questions (as expanded by Bavinck and Kuyper) and specifcally setting it against the contemporary worldviews of the day.

Also, I've probably mentioned several times before, this is foundational to the new nation of Israel as they set their identity as the chosen nation.

[one.opinion]

I will bring up a couple of things related to Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15. First, these passages are more likely to refer to humans, specifically. In addition, the passages are also discussing life and death of a different sort. The death Adam (and his sin) brought is more profoundly spiritual death, and not physical death. The life Jesus brings is eternal life, also of a different sort, not just a reanimation of the bodies we currently possess. I believe it is a misapplication of clear Scripture to take these passages and to force them onto all living things.

[Who me]

10 hours ago, one.opinion said:

God is creator of ALL things

That is not what a beliefer in evolution can say. Evolution means that the unproven hypothetical simple cell created somehow, magically acquired abilities to become multicellular and make specialised cells without having the information to make them.

 

All that you can claim as a believer in evolution is that God created the first living things that then evolved into the creatures we know today.

To claim God created all living things denies that there was evolution.

[one.opinion]

3 hours ago, Who me said:

That is not what a beliefer in evolution can say.

I can say exactly what I mean - with or without your approval.

3 hours ago, Who me said:

To claim God created all living things denies that there was evolution.

Evolution says nothing about the existence of God. Evolution at the most basic level is heritable change in a population over time. The biggest implication that stirs controversy in some circles is that the life we see on the planet today developed from single-celled organisms over the course of hundreds of millions of years. If God set up all the parameters and put the process in motion, then God is the ultimate Creator of all things. You wouldn't look at a car factory that uses a lot of robotic parts in assembly and claim that humans don't make cars.

[Marathoner]

4 hours ago, one.opinion said:

Evolution says nothing about the existence of God. Evolution at the most basic level is heritable change in a population over time. The biggest implication that stirs controversy in some circles is that the life we see on the planet today developed from single-celled organisms over the course of hundreds of millions of years. If God set up all the parameters and put the process in motion, then God is the ultimate Creator of all things. You wouldn't look at a car factory that uses a lot of robotic parts in assembly and claim that humans don't make cars.

Rather ironic, isn't it? Humanity studies the creation of God and using the knowledge gained thereby, created the devices everyone on this forum uses to communicate. This didn't happen overnight; an evolutionary process of technological advancement underwrites our ability to post here today. Evolution, simply expressed, is the process of change. The processes and laws of God's creation don't deny the Almighty, they testify of Him!

The Lord created everything seen and unseen. A plant begins as a seed... we begin as a fertilized egg in our mother's womb... we were once dead in our sins, redeemed by Jesus Christ... and we are transformed by His Spirit from glory to glory. It pleases God that all things under heaven unfold in a manner according to His counsel and purpose. Hence there is an appointed time for every matter on earth. In the fulness of time God the Father sent His only begotten Son to be born to a woman under the law, to redeem us who suffer under the penalty of the law. 

As it was written in the Gospel of John, the Word made flesh did many things that weren't recorded in the Gospel. If all of His deeds were written one by one, then the world wouldn't have room to accommodate all of the books. I marvel that those who claim to be bible-believers don't believe verses like that one in John's Gospel, a God-breathed reminder that there are many, many things not recorded in scripture. Hence the scriptures are neither a technical nor engineering manual... they testify of the Living One, the Son of God who is sent by our Father in heaven. 

If Genesis recorded every detail of God's creation --- galactic masses, solar masses, planetary bodies, and so forth --- then the world wouldn't have enough room to accommodate the sheer volume of books. 

[teddyv]

Evolution (generic) does seem to be part of the fabric of universe.

26 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

If Genesis recorded every detail of God's creation --- galactic masses, solar masses, planetary bodies, and so forth --- then the world wouldn't have enough room to accommodate the sheer volume of books. 

This reminded me of an fun little Asimov short story.