Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[FreeGrace]

21 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

  FreeGrace said: 

The most obvious flaw is that there are no verses that describe Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.

Then according to John 14 He, Jesus Christ has not prepared a room or mansion for you in the Father's House. And you do not know the way to where Jesus Christ now is, in the Fathers House.

According to John 14:1-3, there is NO MENTION of Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven.  In fact, there  is NO MENTION of resurrected believers either.

John 14-

1  “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God ; believe also in me.

2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

v.1 Jesus is comforting His disciples.  \

v.2 Jesus was telling them that they would have a place in heaven.  iow, He was guaranteeing that they would go to heaven when they die.  

v.3 2 parts:  first part is "I will come back".  That refers to His resurrection from the dead.  Second part:  "take you to be with me" refers to WHEN they die, they will go to heaven.

21 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

  So there is no way you can get there, You are earth bound.  You will never enjoy any heavenly, in the kingdom of God experiences.  That is a morbid thought.

This is a huge misunderstanding of the FACTS.

The soul of every believer goes to heaven when they die.  Do you believe that the souls of believers simply sleep in that coffin, where the rotting body lies?  Now, THAT is really a MORBID THOUGHT!!

Actually, the only believers who will never see heaven are those who "are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord".  Why not?  Because Jesus comes back at the second advent to rule in the MK and He resurrects all the living believers and then continues on down to earth.  They don't go to heaven.  They receive their "changed" (resurrection) body and rule/serve with Christ for the MK.

If there are any "tours" to heaven during the MK, the Bible doesn't say, so it would be pure speculation to say there will be.

And at the end of the MK, what happens?  The earth melts and there will be a new earth, per Rev 21.  And God in heaven comes down to earth to dwell among the resurrected believers on earth.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

This is a huge misunderstanding of the FACTS.

The soul of every believer goes to heaven when they die.  Do you believe that the souls of believers simply sleep in that coffin, where the rotting body lies?  Now, THAT is really a MORBID THOUGHT!!

Actually, the only believers who will never see heaven are those who "are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord".  Why not?  Because Jesus comes back at the second advent to rule in the MK and He resurrects all the living believers and then continues on down to earth.  They don't go to heaven.  They receive their "changed" (resurrection) body and rule/serve with Christ for the MK.

If there are any "tours" to heaven during the MK, the Bible doesn't say, so it would be pure speculation to say there will be.

And at the end of the MK, what happens?  The earth melts and there will be a new earth, per Rev 21.  And God in heaven comes down to earth to dwell among the resurrected believers on earth.

Missing a few factors:

The Two Witness go up bodily before Armageddon.  The people see them go up in Awe.  Bodily in Heaven before the 2nd Coming.

The dead in Christ rise bodily first (to be joined with their spirits), then we Believers who are still alive in body will rise to meet them in the air.  For a natural physical body to go into Heaven it must be changed into a glorified body.  This is not a resurrection for those who are still Alive, it is an ascension, when did this body die to be resurrected.

Those who reside in the Camp of the Lord at the end of the Mill, who are they; flesh and blood or Spiritual.  Who are those who reside outside the Camp, are they flesh and blood or Spiritual.  The answer would be both.  Those outside the Camp would come year after year for the Feast of Tabernacles.  And a question that neither of us can really properly explain.  When reigning with Christ during the MK, are were reigning from Jerusalem over the masses of peoples, or are some us or many of us  reigning over the masses where they reside in their nations.

Then those in the Camp which are flesh and blood and live, after the masses outside the Camp are completely eradicated; When do these get resurrected, or do they just receive a new glorified body on site.

Those who are caught up in the Rapture receive Alive receive their new glorified body as they ascend upwards.  These still on earth at the end of the MK receive their glorified body on site also.

Post-Trib makes no since;  Many holes;  From the rest of mankind not killed by the plagues continuing or not stopping their worship of demons and idols.  What are you implying; are you or are you not part of the rest/remainder of mankind, those not killed.  Post-Trib hangs on this:  The noose is on.

In Christ

Montana Marv

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

2 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Your One Bride con-tribe is theory, not fact

There is one bride that came down from heaven consisting of both old and New Testament believers

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

 

 Why in the world would you be looking at it from that angle? Its like your trying to prove God's Word isn't true....you didn't say that about the New Testament saints where it said 'well look here, God says he would spit you out of his mouth because you are lukewarm. Of course we are not talking about unfaithful people during Old Testament times who were of the seed of Abraham...God even told the Pharisees he knew they were Abraham's seed yet they were going about to kill and he told them if they were of God they would love him...God has his people who overcome in both old and New Testaments...God told Daniel at the time of the resurrection he would deliver his people, every one that shall be found written in the Book...They have their names written in the same book that we have our names written in...they can be blotted out just like we can be blotted out..God has his faithful people in Both Testaments and they are who the bride is...

People also seem to forget the 12 tribes of 

 

12Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bare unto Abraham:

13And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

14And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa,

15Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:

16These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.


The reason we MUST INCLUDE Isaac and Israel for the promises....

And it says when the fulness of the gentiles comes in they are grafted back in...Can't do that if the whole tree has left the earth

Edited September 6, 2023 by DeighAnn

[Montana Marv]

29 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

There is one bride that came down from heaven consisting of both old and New Testament believers

That New Jerusalem which you refer to comes down form heaven is a city, mentioned 7 times.  It is adorned as a Bride.  Who are the kings of the earth which will bring spender into this city?  Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone... , but only those who's names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life Rev 21:22; Includes the kings who bring splendor to it.

I get it now;;;;  Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Only one Bride); are both that city, those who go into this city and are the kings who are outside this city.  In essence one is occupied by themself.  Nice doctrine you are trying to convey.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[transmogrified]

1 hour ago, Montana Marv said:

That New Jerusalem which you refer to comes down form heaven is a city, mentioned 7 times.  It is adorned as a Bride.  Who are the kings of the earth which will bring spender into this city?  Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone... , but only those who's names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life Rev 21:22; Includes the kings who bring splendor to it.

I get it now;;;;  Those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life (the Only one Bride); are both that city, those who go into this city and are the kings who are outside this city.  In essence one is occupied by themself.  Nice doctrine you are trying to convey.

In Christ

Montana Marv

The OT faithful saints have their names in the book of life as Moses said if God was going to cast off Israel he said take my name out of the book of life.. but God said those who have sinned against me will I blot out their names.. The others remain..The bride consisting of both old and New Testament saints is another way of saying the Lord my God shall come and all the saints with thee, which is another way of saying he will gather his elect from the uttermost parts of heaven which is another way of saying the armies which were in heaven followed him down to Armageddon which is another way of saying the dead in Christ will rise first which is another way of saying them that sleep in Jesus will God bring with him… showing different aspects of the same event at the second coming… The reason pre trib cannot accept the bride consisting of both old and New Testament saints is because they have provided no way for the OT saints to be up there- nor the trib saints nor are they all changed at the same time nor are trib saints changed at all

[FreeGrace]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Missing a few factors:

The Two Witness go up bodily before Armageddon.  The people see them go up in Awe.  Bodily in Heaven before the 2nd Coming.

Yep.  But NO resurrection body.  That's only an assumption.  Again, 1 Cor 15:23 is clear:  ALL believers receive the resurrection body WHEN HE COMES, including the 2W.

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

The dead in Christ rise bodily first (to be joined with their spirits), then we Believers who are still alive in body will rise to meet them in the air.  For a natural physical body to go into Heaven it must be changed into a glorified body.  This is not a resurrection for those who are still Alive, it is an ascension, when did this body die to be resurrected.

Please don't argue with 1 Cor 15:23.  God said it, believe it.

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Those who are caught up in the Rapture receive Alive receive their new glorified body as they ascend upwards.  These still on earth at the end of the MK receive their glorified body on site also.

No believer will be taken to heaven after the resurrection.

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Post-Trib makes no since

It doesn't when one has been taught false doctrine.  

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

;  Many holes;  From the rest of mankind not killed by the plagues continuing or not stopping their worship of demons and idols.  What are you implying; are you or are you not part of the rest/remainder of mankind, those not killed.  Post-Trib hangs on this:  The noose is on.

No n0ose.  Just a rather rambling post here.  When Jesus comes back, all the mortals who survive the trib will be the ones Jesus rules with a rod of iron.  All the resurrected and changed believers will either reign with or serve under the King.

Unless there is a verse that clearly and unambigously describes Jesus taking resurrected believers to heaven, pretrib has a HUGE hole in it.  With only speculation and assumption.

[Montana Marv]

45 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Yep.  But NO resurrection body.  That's only an assumption.  Again, 1 Cor 15:23 is clear:  ALL believers receive the resurrection body WHEN HE COMES, including the 2W.

Rev 11:12 - Come up here, and they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.  So what you have implied is that Flesh and Blood can make it into heaven without being changed.  You and your body can goes up right new then, with no change.

We are caught up by the Bridegroom.  And you falsely claim that his happens at the 2nd Coming.  You haven't read Scripture correctly, and when you say Post-Trib, I absolutely know you have no True Idea when the Harpozo is .

In Jesus's own Words about the coming of the Bridegroom; Matt 25:24 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR the SON, but only the Father.

Yet only the astute know about John 1:1---- to v.14.  In the Beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning...  v14 and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Now unless you can formulate an argument that the Word and all of the Scriptures are not One and the same, by the Son.  Your 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't hold water; for your timing is off.

I just laugh

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

It doesn't when one has been taught false doctrine

Yes the false doctrine of a Post Trib Rapture

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

No n0ose.  Just a rather rambling post here.  When Jesus comes back, all the mortals who survive the trib will be the ones Jesus rules with a rod of iron.  All the resurrected and changed believers will either reign with or serve under the King.

This is the only thing you have posted that I am in agreement with.

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

No believer will be taken to heaven after the resurrection.

Then the Father has no House, and Jesus will not go there to make a place for you.  Where he is, you won't be there.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The bride consisting of both old and New Testament saints

You are the only one ever I have heard this from.  New Info..  With this you imply that there is no need for the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  Pentecost has no value, We are not all One.

I have heard Israel and the Church being the Bride

Both of which are false doctrine.

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

showing different aspects of the same event at the second coming

The problem is you do not know when the Rapture will happen, Jesus is the Word, who is all of the Scriptures, and also is the Son does not know, so how in tar-nation can you know, Jesus Christ does not know it's time.

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The reason pre trib cannot accept the bride consisting of both old and New Testament saints is because they have provided no way for the OT saints to be up there- nor the trib saints nor are they all changed at the same time nor are trib saints changed at all

That is because many O.T. saints are resurrected Post Mill..   Rev 20:5 - And the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended, This is the First Resurrection.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[FreeGrace]

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Rev 11:12 - Come up here, and they went up into heaven in a cloud, while their enemies looked on.  So what you have implied is that Flesh and Blood can make it into heaven without being changed.  You and your body can goes up right new then, with no change.

As I already said, 1 Cor 15:23 SAYS that "those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes".  That means ALL believers at one resurrection.  No amount of arguing will change that fact.  The 2W are most likely Enoch and Elijah, both of which never physically died back in OT times.  So in Rev 11 is when they will physically die.  They went to heaven in their physical bodies back then, and they will do it again.

Or, prove that they were given resurrection bodies when God called them up.

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

We are caught up by the Bridegroom. 

No we aren't.  Or prove that we are with a verse that actually SAYS we are.  

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

And you falsely claim that his happens at the 2nd Coming.

And don't you accuse Scripture of making false claims!  I gave you the verses.  If you disagree, prove the verses don't show the 2nd Advent.  Heb 9:28 plainly says that Jesus will "come a second time".  So what do you think that refers to?  Some pre-trib visit?  If that were true, then the 'second advent' would have to be called the 'third advent'.  Which is ridiculous.

Every mention of the "coming" of Jesus in the NT refers to the second advent.

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

  You haven't read Scripture correctly, and when you say Post-Trib, I absolutely know you have no True Idea when the Harpozo is .

I have shown you the verses that SAY what I SAY.  So prove me wrong by explaining what the verses really teach.  So far, you haven't even touched them.

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

In Jesus's own Words about the coming of the Bridegroom; Matt 25:24 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, NOR the SON, but only the Father.

What does this have to do with your so-called pre-trib rapture?  Jesus was referring to the second advent anyway.

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yet only the astute know about John 1:1---- to v.14.  In the Beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning...  v14 and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

Well then, I'm one of the "astute" for I am intimately aware of that passage.  But, why do you mention it?  Do you think there is a mention of a pre-trib rapture with trip to heaven?

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Now unless you can formulate an argument that the Word and all of the Scriptures are not One and the same, by the Son.  Your 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't hold water; for your timing is off.

Ok then, prove that my timing is off.  Explain what 1 Cor 15:23 teaches.  By that, I mean, tell me what "when He comes" refers to and who are "those who belong to Him".  We'll see whose timing is off.

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

I just laugh

It's good medicine.  

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Yes the false doctrine of a Post Trib Rapture

The Bible teaches it, so those who claim it is false doctrine are themselves deep in it.

50 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Then the Father has no House, and Jesus will not go there to make a place for you.  Where he is, you won't be there.

So it seems you are inferring or insinuating that I'm not saved, is that it?  How low can you go?